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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

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Yuna

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I'ma lay out what's happening as simple as I can.
Metaknight, no one can argue against this, is one of the easiest characters to play in the game effectively. When I say effectively, I mean actually playing him well, and just spamming the crap out of his overpowered attributes like Tornado...
Your post failed catastrophically at this point. Come back when you've learned to live by my sig (I don't care if you played both sides and was kinda a Devil's advocate. This old and supremely flawed argument shows you know very little about Meta Knight).

Ah, I see. But why do you think its anti-competitive, is it the fewer characters to choose from, the people potentially quitting, or another factor?
Because removing anything that is good is anti-Competitive. Unless something restricts the metagame severely, it should stay. Because if we're gonna ban character after character after character, then we might as well keep on going 'til we have only characters that only 60:40 each other at worst.
 

ROOOOY!

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Your post failed catastrophically at this point. Come back when you've learned to live by my sig (I don't care if you played both sides and was kinda a Devil's advocate. This old and supremely flawed argument shows you know very little about Meta Knight).
I was playing Devil's Advocate lol. And it infact in no way shows that I know little about Metaknight, that's just you being presumptious as usual.
Though in all fairness I brought it on myself, posting whilst you were around.
I genuinely wouldn't have if I'd known you were online.
Because everything has to be debated in Yuna's presence, because no one's allowed speech without interrogation or accusations, never.

And if we all lived by your sig, seemingly nobody would be allowed to post except you.
It's just arguments for arguments sake isn't it? I mean, I saw you arguing with someone who 100% agreed with you a few days ago.

Edit: I retracted a statement because I'm not mean.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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Because removing anything that is good is anti-Competitive. Unless something restricts the metagame severely, it should stay. Because if we're gonna ban character after character after character, then we might as well keep on going 'til we have only characters that only 60:40 each other at worst.
We should just let IDC back in then. banning it was anti-competitive since it was a good AT one of the few in brawl.

Also slippery slope doesn't work stop saying that its going to happen. If a character where to become so good then it would mean they are at MK's level. If there where the case then it would be more likely for MK to get unbanned rather than ban umm lets say marth.
 

ftl

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Because removing anything that is good is anti-Competitive.
Hmm, we may be operating under different definitions of 'competitive', then. I've always used the phrase to basically mean that the better player wins - randomness, for example, would be anticompetitive because it could let the 'worse' player win because they get lucky. A game is 'competitive' if it still can guarantee the better player win even when both players are trying their hardest to win and exploiting everything within the rules.

But removing MK doesn't make the game any worse at letting the better player win - it's not like we've introduced randomness, or shortened the matches.

When referring to a person or a mentality, I use it to mean playing to win - trying to become the best player you can be, exploiting everything within the rules.

But again, that doesn't say anything about which rulesets are more competitive than what other rulesets, does it?

Why wouldn't Smash without MK be just as competitive as a game as Smash with MK?

I suspect, though, that you mean something different by the word 'competitive' as applied to the game...
 

XienZo

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Because removing anything that is good is anti-Competitive. Unless something restricts the metagame severely, it should stay. Because if we're gonna ban character after character after character, then we might as well keep on going 'til we have only characters that only 60:40 each other at worst.
How severe would that "severely" be? Like where is the line between severe and not so severe?

Also, do you mean when you say "characters that only 60:40 each other", would that mean that if we kept trying to ban things to maximize competition, the game would become so dull many people would leave?

Note: Below misses the point if you said no to the above.
What if we tried to find a balance between technical-competitive-ness and having-enough-people-for-a-competitive-metagame-competitive-ness? It could be more specific than just using a definition of "restrict the metagame severly", which could be interpreted in many ways and lead to the metagame with "restricitng" factors due to the SBR and majority of tournament directors taking the term too lightly or harshly.
 

brinboy789

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We should just let IDC back in then. banning it was anti-competitive since it was a good AT one of the few in brawl.

Also slippery slope doesn't work stop saying that its going to happen. If a character where to become so good then it would mean they are at MK's level. If there where the case then it would be more likely for MK to get unbanned rather than ban umm lets say marth.
the IDC was banned for stalling, not for its "uncompetitive" uses.
 

Vyse

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We should just let IDC back in then. banning it was anti-competitive since it was a good AT one of the few in brawl.
It wasn't just good. It was broken beyond belief, and far too difficult to regulate.

Unlike the issue of Metaknight. It's either ban him, or don't ban him.
Take your pick.
 

salaboB

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It wasn't just good. It was broken beyond belief, and far too difficult to regulate.
But it was an option that we took away from players.

He was shooting down Yuna's point that nothing good should be banned, not seriously suggesting the IDC be allowed. The IDC definitely qualifies as a "good" move for an MK player to make use of.
 

The Real Inferno

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I believe the official reason that eventually given for the removal of IDC was: "It completely stops the game until Meta Knight has an advantage."
 

XienZo

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But it was an option that we took away from players.

He was shooting down Yuna's point that nothing good should be banned, not seriously suggesting the IDC be allowed. The IDC definitely qualifies as a "good" move for an MK player to make use of.
IDC=stalling a major part of time
stalling=less time
less time=less hits
less hits=more emphasis per hit
more emphasis per hit=riskier strategies with higher payoff become obsolete since only small advantage is needed and higher risk hurt more due to stalling making it permanent
obsolete strategies=less strategies
less strategies=less metagame
less metagame=bad
bad=not good
not good=Yuna gets to ban it


voila
 

brinboy789

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IDC=stalling a major part of time
stalling=less time
less time=less hits
less hits=more emphasis per hit
more emphasis per hit=riskier strategies with higher payoff become obsolete since only small advantage is needed and higher risk hurt more due to stalling making it permanent
obsolete strategies=less strategies
less strategies=less metagame
less metagame=bad
bad=not good
not good=Yuna gets to ban it


voila
mama mia! and i read somewhere that it was banned because of major stalling, but w/e
 

Vyse

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@salaboB:
Fair enough.

But IDC isn't comparable to banning Metaknight. It's more comparable to Peach Bomber Stalling, or rising pound stalling. Except more broken.

@Memphis:
I <3 you too.

But.

I'm starting to think you're stalking me >.>
 

Yuna

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We should just let IDC back in then. banning it was anti-competitive since it was a good AT one of the few in brawl.
Or not, since IDC makes MK literally God Tier and way, way bannable if restricted by a time limit (which would take manpower and TOs) and if there's no restriction, wow, then he can just stall entire matches out either entirely or in small increments.

It's the very definition of anti-competition. It limits the metagame to Meta Knight. Use him or lose, literally.

Also slippery slope doesn't work stop saying that its going to happen. If a character where to become so good then it would mean they are at MK's level. If there where the case then it would be more likely for MK to get unbanned rather than ban umm lets say marth.
But you see, you're one of very few people who have actually said that. The others just said "We'll ban them too".

Everyone's allowed to debate on Smashboards, I'm not a mod, I have no power. I can only gently whisper to people that maybe they don't have the qualifications to enter certain debates.

And people who think that "spamming the crap out of [MK's] overpowered attributes like Tornado" = Playing him well = Works = Wins matches are clearly too ignorant about Meta Knight to enter the debate about whether or not he should be banned.

Hmm, we may be operating under different definitions of 'competitive', then.
I've always used the phrase to basically mean that the better player wins - randomness, for example, would be anticompetitive because it could let the 'worse' player win because they get lucky. A game is 'competitive' if it still can guarantee the better player win even when both players are trying their hardest to win and exploiting everything within the rules.
I believe both definitions are correct and apply.


But removing MK doesn't make the game any worse at letting the better player win - it's not like we've introduced randomness, or shortened the matches.
It's anti-competitive to ban something for abitrary reasons. We're restricting competition and not doing it because we have to, but because of an arbitrary reason. Of course, you can prove that Meta Knight needs to be banned for valid reasons, but insofar, there's been no conclusive proof of that.

Why wouldn't Smash without MK be just as competitive as a game as Smash with MK?
The very act of banning MK for invalid reasons (if we were to ban him for invalid reasons) would be anti-Competitive.

Also, do you mean when you say "characters that only 60:40 each other", would that mean that if we kept trying to ban things to maximize competition, the game would become so dull many people would leave?
Ummm... no? I mean that we'd have to ban everyone down to the point where the only characters left 60:40 each other, at worst. Which would limit the game to a very select few characters.

By "restricting the metagame", I meant something along the lines of "Play MK or you don't stand a reasonable chance at winning". We have yet to come to that point.
 

Natch

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Um, Yuna, you twisted my words.

I said banning MK STRICTLY because he has 60:40's(And better) across the board is stupid. What this statement doesn't look at are the reasons WHY he has these matchups, or any consequences that happen because of these matchups. [If this somehow means I still said what you thought I said, I changed my mind.]

In fact, why exactly DOES MK have no disadvantaged matchups? How exactly can a character be designed so that no single character out of 38 others has the upper hand?


1. He has "no" weaknesses.
Before you harp on me for this, MK has no de facto weaknesses against the majority of the cast. As an example, a character could be made that dies in one hit, but has an instant kill move that is garunteed to hit. Sure, he dies in one hit, but that doesn't matter because he'll kill you first. His weakness does not exist, for all intents and purposes.

MK is like this, though to a lesser extent. The characters that can put up a fight are the ones who can exploit his weaknesses consistantly and effectively.


2. He has an answer to everything.
MK has too many options that are all above average. Whatever you do, he has an answer to it. The characters that do well against him are those that have better answers. But even that isn't enough. You need have to a fair amount of "better answers," or the right combination. The last option is to flatout have a strategy that can and will work against anyone, assuming the opponent makes a mistake. Take Diddy, for example. If you make a mistake, he will get you with a bannana, which usually leads to a free hit. Everyone has to deal with this. If you manage to beat Diddy, you still didn't beat his bannanas. You can never truly beat the bannanas, just the Diddy who uses them. This is called a brick wall.



This is why MK has 60:40's across the board, and the reason why previously questionable/bad matchups are now shifting. Snake, GaW, and Falco are examples. Once they found a tactic that worked, the matchup changed.

In reality, MK does not have matchups in the traditional sense. If you go neutral with MK, that is not the same as going neutral with, say, ROB. The only reason MK's lose are because they didn't know the matchups or weren't as skilled. There are few exceptions to this, and the fact that there are exceptios is one of the reason MK is not banned quite yet.

MK's matchups "behave" differently at different ratios. For the following, I'll be explaining how this works. It's sort of complicated, so I'll try to explain. Let's use the first one listed-"70:30/65:35 or worse" as an example.

70:30 designates a definate point where the situation applies. Any matchup MK has that is 70:30 behaves this way, garunteed. The slash after that denotes that the following ratio-65:35 in this case-is a ratio where this situation SOMETIMES applies, but not always. That's because 70:30's could be argued at 65:35, and 65:35 can argued at 60:40. The matchup ratios don't say what side of the ratio it's leaning towards. Ratios will overlap, but the bottom line for them to overlap is that whatever the situation is, that situation MUST happen at the first ratio listed, and might/sometimes/rarely happens at the later ratios.

70:30/65:35 and below: This matchup is an advantage in the traditional sense. The character in question is beaten by MK's moves and abilities alone. There may be some moves that do beat out some of MK's moves, but MK can just choose not to use these moves as much-or even at all. This character is low on the tier list. This is how it works, period. Every character on the low tier has this matchup. A sizeable amount in mid tier-at least 1/3-have this matchup as well.

65:35/60:40: This matchup is starting to become an advantage in a not-so traditional sense. The character in question is beaten by some of MK's moves and abilities, but actually has moves that outright beat enough of MK's options to the point where he HAS to deal with them. Falco's laser is an example. MK must deal with this. He can't fight this head on. He has no reflector or projectile magnet. However, once he's in close, the laser can no longer be used effectively. It now becomes a non-issue. MK has gotten past that brick wall.

60:40/55:45: This matchup is now becoming a bit screwy. Both characters have a sufficient number of brick walls that they actual fighting takes place. MK can't just brick wall you to death without being met by another equally tough brick wall.

50:50/55:45/60:40: [I reversed this for a reason. That's because the following is garunteed to happen once you reach 50:50, and may happen at the other ratios.] This is as good as it gets. This is where characters like Diddy and Snake start coming out. This list is so small that I'm just going to talk about those two. Diddy has an unstoppable brick wall. The bannanas. By his moves alone, Diddy is okay. Not good, not bad. Just okay. Once you add in the bannannas, it all goes to hell. Suddenly, his entire game focuses on a brick wall that can never be broken down. In fact, his brick wall is the only reason he can compete against MK and against other characters in general. Not only does he have an ever present brickwall, it also doubles as a trap. Leave a bannana somewhere, and suddenly you have prevented an opponent from going there directly. If there is a bannana behind you, your opponent is unable to roll behind you without slipping. He must jump over you or charge you head on. But it's hard for him to charge head on-you've got a bannana ready to throw at him. This is why Diddy has a chance against EVERYONE, assuming that he can use his bannanas.

Snake is a bit different. Snakes not only has explosives that work as both brick walls AND traps, he has moves that actually beat out MK moves. Ftilt and Utilt are prime examples. MK's have indeed figured out they need to space, but the combonation of brick walls, traps, and higher priority attacks means Snake can actually do something against MK, and against all characters, really. Ever fought a very camp Snake? You'll probably get a similar feeling when fighting Diddy or MK.



That's why MK is "broken." He is not broken in the traditional sense, but broken in the sense that he is one giant brick wall. To do well, Diddy and Snake need sufficient room on the stage. MK does not need any sort of set up to brick wall you. Whenever MK does a move, it's a brick wall. When you fight a brick wall, you are not actually fighting the character. You are fighting the player using the brick wall. Brick walls mean that any weaknesses the character has do not matter, as you are not fighting the character. Once a brick wall is broken down-if possible-or gotten around, you can start actually fighting the character. The problem with MK is that you're hardly ever fighting MK. You're fighting his brick walls.

In order to even stand a chance against MK, you either need a brick wall that the PLAYER cannot find a way around, or you have to continiously jump through a series of hoops. Shield the Tornado. Spotdodge the Down Smash. Avoid the Shuttle Loop. Stay away from the Dtilt. Airdodge through his Dair.

The list goes on and on.

The massive list of 60:40 matchups are because there are enough pros who can jump through these hoops on instinct, and the players who don't use MK have enough skill compared to those that do that it's possible for them to win. All the character has to have are good brick walls, and moves that actually outprioritize those that MK has. Those in large part these are in the same, as the majority of brick walls are projectiles.

This problem further stems from MK's wacky priority. Correct me if I'm wrong, but MK's sword will never actually clank. While this means he doesn't beat out projectiles, this means that MK's sword is like a permanant, mobile projectile. Super high priority means that MK is only limited by his mobility. And on the ground, in the air, and off stage, MK has no problems getting around.

Think about it. If MK never clanks, it means that going even in terms of priority means he wins every time. You have to throw your move out first-which would be a mistake on the part of the player, not MK-or have some sort of uber priority-think Ike's Fair-to beat him out. Otherwise, every move MK uses becomes something you HAVE to avoid.




GENERAL NOTE: Exceptions are not the norm. If I left something out:

- Such as the fact that you can go in the air against Diddy, it still wouldn't change the fact that you can't truly beat the bannanas. If the nanners disapeared, you still didn't beat them. You waited them out. If you took control of the nanners, you still didn't beat them. You just controlled them.
-Every low tier does bad against MK, of course we know Yoshi does well. But the fact that the MAJORITY of the low tier does badly is still sufficient enough to prove the statement that characters in low tiers do bad against MK.

And etc. My statements may be worded to be absolute, but saying every single exception that exists will make the post far too clunky and hard to read. So I'm just leaving a footnote to deal with that. The above 2 are just examples to show that I do, in fact, know that I made statements with exceptions.
 

__V

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MK takes a huge piss over the meta-game.

Really, the only techs people look for at this point are ones to counter him. Is this not a problem?

MK has no counters, and cannot be countered by any character other than MK. If you beat a Meta-Knight with a character, good for you. This is not an argument.

MK cannot be edgeguarded. Unless we get some Ike players who can time Eruption PERFECTLY, no, he cannot be edgeguarded.

MK's edgehogging cannot be punished by any character. Not even another MK. He can camp indefinitely.

MK has wings. The only projectile that's remotely effective against him is fire breath. He can powershield and reach Falco as he's finished firing a 3rd shot, and then punish his ending lag.

Shuttle Loop has no weakness. The "it's weak at the top" argument is nonsense. A smart MK can simply wait to execute the attack. His glide attack out-prioritizes or cancels every other attack except for attacks with SA frames. His entire body transforms into one giant hitbox when he executes the glide attack.

Meta-Knight only has four punishable moves, and the moves are not necessary to his gameplay. If someone can counter these, the MK can simply stop using them.

Mach Tornado: Has very slight ending lag, and can be punished by almost every character.

Drill Rush: Same reason as above.

Dimensional Cape: Has ending lag, but the move sucks and is almost never used.

Fsmash: Start-up lag the can be punished, but few MK's use this attack when they're in a position to be punished anyway.


The only remotely legitimate weakness he has is that he's not very heavy. However, this is obviously purposeful. Because of his light weight, MK can't be combo'd or chased after an attack.

Meta-Knight is easy mode. As long as people can, they will use him.
I'd really love to have this answered.
 

da K.I.D.

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yuna,
your rules and logic are flawed, your ideals are scewed, and you refuse to listen to anyone but yourself.

you dont take the time to actually listen to other people or consider their viewpoints, you are so closeminded that trying to explain a thought process to you that goes contrary to your own is an excercise in futility.

you never try to better your understanding of the situations around you because you are so set in your own ways that youve convinced yourself that any one who is not in COMPLETE agreement with you is somehow horribly misguided, because your logic is so blatently undeniable to yourself. everyone else that has tried to carry on a debate in this topic, has at least considered the other sides point of view, except you. I know this of the people that are in agreement with me because were it not true, I would not have consistently seen people like DRaGZ and salaboB in dojo's and M2Ks "learn MK better" threads. but even when i saw them putting their energys into trying to counteract Mk as opposed to banning him, i still saw you; critizising and accusing people of doing nothing but derailing and instigating others.

i think that that was the actual point where i lost all of my remaining respect for you. Its like you dont even care about what happen to the game, even if everybody quits and never plays again; as long as they follow your rediculously arbitrary code... you win. thats all you care about any more is winning a stupid debate. you dont even consider the possibility of the game beign better without Mk, because you have convinced yourself so throughly that you are right and everyone else is wrong, that you have passed the point of even being able to logically consider the situations from both sides of the disagreement. Instead you strawman arguments, you put words in peoples mouths and you demand that people play by some stupid code that your experience, and your experience alone, have determined to be infalible.

the things you do are no better than the propaganda perpetrated by the catholic church and the vatican...



people like you make me sick.

p.s. if you dont think spamming tornado is viable in tourneys you need to watch more dr. mario kart
and about the slippery slope, nobody cares, we will cross that bridge when we get to it, because it solves absolutely nothign to talk about it now
 

Yuna

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Um, Yuna, you twisted my words.
No I didn't. At least not consciously. I'm too lazy to go back and double-check.

Because really, a Wall of Text that majority of which I've already read 29 times over makes me not want to read it.

So what if there are these and these reasons for why he's got such good matchups? The fact remains that he still has a 55:45 (arguable) and a few 60:40s. These characters can still beat him.
 

XienZo

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Ummm... no? I mean that we'd have to ban everyone down to the point where the only characters left 60:40 each other, at worst. Which would limit the game to a very select few characters.
Oh, I was meaning to ask more along the lines of the negatives of a game with very select few characters.
 

Yuna

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Bovine manure.
I'd like you to learn how to comprehend plain English, basic debating etiquette, stop strawmanning, actually answer the questions people ask you and not make up what people are saying in your head, trying to shill it as something they said in order to "refute it".

Just because we disagree doesn't meant we have to hate each other. Several people have argued exactly what you argued and I stayed perfectly civil with them. Why? Because they didn't strawman me into infinity or ignore the parts of my posts they couldn't refute, crimes you commit on an hourly or so basis.

More bovine manure.
Why would one enter a debate and argue ardently without the belief of being right? If you want to prove me wrong, prove me wrong with valid arguments. Insofar, you've given me only a few, not enough to prove to me that MK needs to be banned. And at the cost of strawmanning me every single step of the way (which is bad).
 

Arturito_Burrito

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IDC=stalling a major part of time
stalling=less time
less time=less hits
less hits=more emphasis per hit
more emphasis per hit=riskier strategies with higher payoff become obsolete since only small advantage is needed and higher risk hurt more due to stalling making it permanent
obsolete strategies=less strategies
less strategies=less metagame
less metagame=bad
bad=not good
not good=Yuna gets to ban it



voila
Thats what MK does except with characters too.

At least a few I'm not saying that Cfalcon will become tournament viable.

And I don't think that IDC should be unbanned just saying that good things do get banned.
 

Yuna

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Thats what MK does except with characters too.

At least a few I'm not saying that Cfalcon will become tournament viable.

And I don't think that IDC should be unbanned just saying that good things do get banned.
I'd like to know these ample amounts of characters MK single-handedly renders unviable, characters who still wouldn't be unviable with him gone.
 

Natch

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No I didn't. At least not consciously. I'm too lazy to go back and double-check.


Because really, a Wall of Text that majority of which I've already read 29 times over makes me not want to read it.

So what if there are these and these reasons for why he's got such good matchups? The fact remains that he still has a 55:45 (arguable) and a few 60:40s. These characters can still beat him.
Yeah, but there's a very important point.

A 60:40 with MK is not the same as a 60:40 with ROB, Falco, Wario, etc. To dismiss such a post like that is very disheartening to me. If you continue to argue the same points despite people responding to them, then we can do the same.
 

XienZo

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So Yuna, whats so bad about having only a few characters left?

A 60:40 with MK is not the same as a 60:40 with ROB, Falco, Wario, etc. To dismiss such a post like that is very disheartening to me. If you continue to argue the same points despite people responding to them, then we can do the same.
I'd elaborate on that if I were you, because its not something thats exceedingly obvious.
 

Yuna

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Yeah, but there's a very important point.

A 60:40 with MK is not the same as a 60:40 with ROB, Falco, Wario, etc. To dismiss such a post like that is very disheartening to me. If you continue to argue the same points despite people responding to them, then we can do the same.
How? How the PS3 is a 60:40 vs. MK so much different than a 60:40 vs. R.O.B.?! A 60:40 is a 60:40! Yes, they are different characters, but statistically, it's the same. I don't care what fancy schmancy Wall of Text you can throw at me, there's no possible way for you to somehow prove that 60:40s are fundamentally different statistically depending on the character.

I don't immediately recycle the same points over and over. If people disprove me, then I conceed the point and move on. I'm not <insert name here>.

So Yuna, whats so bad about having only a few characters left?

I'd elaborate on that if I were you, because its not something thats exceedingly obvious.
Because we're limiting the metagame severely?
 

da K.I.D.

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Rochester, NY
I'd like you to learn how to comprehend plain English, basic debating etiquette, stop strawmanning, actually answer the questions people ask you and not make up what people are saying in your head, trying to shill it as something they said in order to "refute it".

Just because we disagree doesn't meant we have to hate each other. Several people have argued exactly what you argued and I stayed perfectly civil with them. Why? Because they didn't strawman me into infinity or ignore the parts of my posts they couldn't refute, crimes you commit on an hourly or so basis.


Why would one enter a debate and argue ardently without the belief of being right? If you want to prove me wrong, prove me wrong with valid arguments. Insofar, you've given me only a few, not enough to prove to me that MK needs to be banned. And at the cost of strawmanning me every single step of the way (which is bad).
this makes you a total and complete hypocrite
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
Because we're limiting the metagame severely?
So my point was, removing the top tier characters can increase competitiveness, but removing too many characters limits it, so why don't we find a balance of who (and how many) to ban, instead of leaving the criteria of banning to "limits metagame severely" which could be intrepreted differently by SBR and tourney directors due the vague-ness of "severely" and lead to them arriving at a conclusion that would still limit the metagame "severely" by your criteria?
 

camzaman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
410
Location
SoCal
It's a sad day for America. Our government may move closer to socialism tomorrow, but we in the Smash community can fight for the free market (not ban MK) !
 

Natch

Smash Ace
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Jul 27, 2005
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649
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San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
I'd like to know these ample amounts of characters MK single-handedly renders unviable, characters who still wouldn't be unviable with him gone.
Doesn't change the fact he renders them unviable. Those characters can still counterpick the higher tiered characters. If MK were ban, these characters would become more used.

A single character makes many characters unviable. In any given match, this means MK can discourage all of these characters from being chosen, if not eliminating them entirely. Now, without MK, it shifts a little bit, and suddenly many characters are made unviable by several characters. But, in a given match, one of these characters can still counterpick the character currently being played. As a completly hypothetical example, lets say DDD renders Link unviable, but Lucas counterpicks DDD. This means Lucas could be chosen for that paticular match.

NOTE: Exceptions aren't the norm.
 

Arturito_Burrito

Smash Master
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el paso, New mexico
I'd like to know these ample amounts of characters MK single-handedly renders unviable, characters who still wouldn't be unviable with him gone.
I'd say falco and DDD should not win a tournament where an MK of = skill is at.

I also think I heard eddress talking about how with out MK peach would be more viable. Not to sure on that one though.

edit: if you believe that MK can't be counter picked and has no even match ups pretty much ever character is unviable.
 

Natch

Smash Ace
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Messages
649
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Natch42
How? How the PS3 is a 60:40 vs. MK so much different than a 60:40 vs. R.O.B.?! A 60:40 is a 60:40! Yes, they are different characters, but statistically, it's the same. I don't care what fancy schmancy Wall of Text you can throw at me, there's no possible way for you to somehow prove that 60:40s are fundamentally different statistically depending on the character.

I don't immediately recycle the same points over and over. If people disprove me, then I conceed the point and move on. I'm not <insert name here>.
Read it. Actually read it. If MK has 60:40's across the board, and NO OTHER CHARACTER has matchups like this, there must be something fundamentally different about MK. Out of all the characters out there, no single one has the tools to give MK a bad matchup.

MK must have some universal quality about him that disregards any weaknesses to any type of character ranging from the agressive nature of GaW to the camping abilities of Snake. If what I said in my wall of text isn't the reason, then you tell me what it is.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
Read it. Actually read it. If MK has 60:40's across the board, and NO OTHER CHARACTER has matchups like this, there must be something fundamentally different about MK. Out of all the characters out there, no single one has the tools to give MK a bad matchup.

MK must have some universal quality about him that disregards any weaknesses to any type of character ranging from the agressive nature of GaW to the camping abilities of Snake. If what I said in my wall of text isn't the reason, then you tell me what it is.
So that means the NUMBERS of 60:40 makes him special right? You were inferring earlier that a single MK 60:40 match-up is special because... just because.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
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Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
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Rochester, NY
No I didn't. At least not consciously. I'm too lazy to go back and double-check.
im going to use the yuna approach here,
im too lazy and i also dont care about you enough to go back and call you on all your bs

but i will say this exemplifys what you said here
stop strawmanning, actually answer the questions people ask you and not make up what people are saying in your head, trying to shill it as something they said in order to "refute it".
as for unviable characters
its been documented that Mk is one of the worst 3 matches for half of the playable characters in the game, literally
 

brinboy789

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
2,684
Location
Suffolk, Long Island, NY
im going to use the yuna approach here,
im too lazy and i also dont care about you enough to go back and call you on all your bs

but i will say this exemplifys what you said here

as for unviable characters
its been documented that Mk is one of the worst 3 matches for half of the playable characters in the game, literally
not to sound like im kissing yunas *** or anything, but what you said...doesnt work. and obviously the best char in the game would be the worst matchup for alot of chars. it works that way too in many fighting games.
 

Arturito_Burrito

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
3,310
Location
el paso, New mexico
as for unviable characters
its been documented that Mk is one of the worst 3 matches for half of the playable characters in the game, literally
Plus a lot of people say that a new tier list would have great emphases on how well a character does against MK. That means that if someone does horrible against them and good against a good number of characters he wouldn't be considered as viable.

edit: brinboy how does it not work? give reasonings behind your horrible logic.
 

Shady Penguin

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
1,150
Location
North Carolina
I think MK should simply be banned for being the obvious best by a significant margin. Popularity aside, playing MK clearly gives you the best chance of winning in a tournament overall.

I'm not sure why some people think he has to break the game and/or be unbeatable to be banned (not talking to anyone in particular). He's a single character anyway you look at it. Banning him will only have the negative result of disappointing people who actually play him over fun, yet it will have the substantial good result of adding more variety and greatly opening up the counter-pick system (which isn't necessary, but liked my most).

While MK normally wouldn't make any specific character unviable, the fact that he's logically everywhere at most tournies makes the characters he does do very well against have a drastically lower chance of winning. MK obviously lowered a good amount of the ROB and Marth populations for example. Both of them are great characters who would have reasonably large increases in success and players with MK gone.
 
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