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The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

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Arturito_Burrito

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What thiocyanide said is true, just using a character once should not count at all.
its not even taken into account for the character rankings.
Fine I suppose that using a character once under certain circumstances shouldn't count but the only one I can see is like using it first round against a scrub or in pools. If you use him in grand finals its because you needed to. If not why switch?
 

ProBrawler

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And just a thought: these aren't even low tier counterpicks we're talking about. Marth, Pikachu, and the like are all comfortably in high tier. Yet it would seem not even they can be as effective as MK on a stage they have an advantage on. So, MK > High tiers w/ advantage. >=l

Edit: If you use a character to any somewhat significant degree, it should be assumed that w/o that character you would not have been successful, even if it's for one match. After all, the difference between a win and lose is sometimes all in one decisive match.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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It is grand finals.
he Cp'ed just like someone would Cp DDD against a D.
Just because I CP DDD once against a DK while I use Sonic throughout the entire tuornament does not mean that DDD should get the points.
yes it does because if your counter picking then it means your sonic lost. One can only assume that with out counter picking the pattern would have continued and you would have lost.
 

JesiahTEG

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Well, if you were up 5-0 in a grand finals set to 11, and your opponent caught up vs your sonic 5 matches in a row so then it was 5-5, and you won the last match w/DDD...I would maybe say that was an important win.
 

ProBrawler

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yeah hence why I cp'ed. that doesn't change the fac tthat the majority of the time I was winning with Sonic.

if i use sonic 100 times and DDD only 1, why should DDD get any points?

It is common sense.
Once again, because DDD helped you win. If I use Z/S for nearly every match but then use Ike to supplement in a couple circumstances, the fact is that I used both to win. Therefore, they both should be counted
 

Arturito_Burrito

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yeah hence why I cp'ed. that doesn't change the fac tthat the majority of the time I was winning with Sonic.

if i use sonic 100 times and DDD only 1, why should DDD get any points?

It is common sense.
Where do you get that this is common sense from?

just to make it more simple if you use sonic 99 times and DDD 1 DDD gets 1% of the credit for you winning the tournament at least.

I how ever think that if you start using a character in order to win (like when you counter pick) it counts even more because it means you feel that your character is going to loose. The further you are in the tournament the more this counts. If you counter pick a DDD in the grand finals its because you thought you where going to lose out on a lot of money.
 

ShadowLink84

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Well, if you were up 5-0 in a grand finals set to 11, and your opponent caught up vs your sonic 5 matches in a row so then it was 5-5, and you won the last match w/DDD...I would maybe say that was an important win.
Every match is important because you always have the risk of getting knocked out the tournament..
Again that doesn't change the fact that DDD gets no credit if Sonic does all the work.
Why should he if my Sonic is tkaing on everyone else, but DDD only faces one character and wins.

if someone just picks up MK because they run into a bad match does NOT consistent that character gaining a share of the points.

If I do 99% of the work and you do 1%. Why should you get the same amount of credit?



Once again, because DDD helped you win. If I use Z/S for nearly every match but then use Ike to supplement in a couple circumstances, the fact is that I used both to win. Therefore, they both should be counted
Wrong because Ike is not making up the majority of your wins in that tournament, ZSS s.
just because you switch to Ike for 4 or 5 matches out of 60 doesn't mean Ike gets any
credit.

It it were that you used Ike 40% of the time or 35% of the time yes. but not if you are using a character to a minimal amount.

but of course hey, everyone can just use ganondorf once along with MK and Ganondorf will be top with Mk as well. I mean hey, that totally makes sense.

Where do you get that this is common sense from?
Read the above.
just to make it more simple if you use sonic 99 times and DDD 1 DDD gets 1% of the credit for you winning the tournament at least.
which means what?
.1 points out of 100?
yeah makes compelte sense.
Again lets all just use Ganondorf once then use MK to win. it will totally be accurate.
I how ever think that if you start using a character in order to win (like when you counter pick) it counts even more because it means you feel that your character is going to loose. The further you are in the tournament the more this counts. If you counter pick a DDD in the grand finals its because you thought you where going to lose out on a lot of money.
Again it does not matter.
if Sonic is shouldering 99% of the work, it does not matter what the situation the other character gets nothing.
Every match is important. If you lose you get knocked out.
Every match involves CPing.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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So? The same could be said for someone who is in the losers bracket. Very important match because if they lose, they get knocked out.
Again that doesn't change the fact that I won the majority of the time with Sonic and did most of the work with Sonic.

if someone just picks up MK because they run into a bad match does NOT consistute that character gaining a share of the points.

If I do 99% of the work and you do 1%. Why should you get the same amount of credit?

yes it would be the same I'm glad we agree now. Some matches are more important than others especially if you win a tournament.


Wrong because Ike is not making up the majority of your wins in that tournament, ZSS s.
just because you switch to Ike for 4 or 5 matches out of 60 doesn't mean Ike gets any
credit.

It it were that you used Ike 40% of the time or 35% of the time yes. but not if you are using a character to a minimal amount.

but of course hey, everyone can just use ganondorf once along with MK and Ganondorf will be top with Mk as well. I mean hey, that totally makes sense.
If you use Ike for 5 matches out of 60 then he gets 8.333% credit. If you can't argue that using a character once doesn't matter because then that means the match should not have counted in advancing in the tournament. If you have a match with a loser and a winner then it counts who you used.

You could argue that he doesn't deserve as much credit but not that he doesn't deserve any at all.

If ganon was used in matches that where just as important as the ones that MK is used in then yes ganon would be just as high. but that doesn't happen.
 

da K.I.D.

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ehh... youre not getting it...

you are dealing in absolutes

and you are generalising.

i also find it funny that you disagree with the person you are arguing for in the first place (jesiah)
 

ShadowLink84

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Don't do the color BS.
it annoys me to no end when I have to do 2x as much work to respond.

yes it would be the same I'm glad we agree now. Some matches are more important than others especially if you win a tournament.
not true ecause like i said earlier, all matches are important because they all carry the same risk.


If you use Ike for 5 matches out of 60 then he gets 8.333% credit. If you can't argue that using a character once doesn't matter because then that means the match should not have counted in advancing in the tournament. If you have a match with a loser and a winner then it counts who you used.
out of the other 91.667? Don
t make me laugh. That does not consistent enough to say, that the characters performance reflects upon their performance through out the tournament. it is not significant enough.
it is inaccurate.
You could argue that he doesn't deserve as much credit but not that he doesn't deserve any at all.
He doesn't deserve any at all because it does not say anything about his performance!
If ganon was used in matches that where just as important as the ones that MK is used in then yes ganon would be just as high. but that doesn't happen.
Wrong, because he still would NOT reflect an accurate performance in the tournament and still reflects nothing about how good the character is.

It would totally be accurate for ganondorf to be number 1 with MK in points because it totally means Ganondorf performs well in tournaments.
I shouldn't even have to debate this.
 

ProBrawler

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I see your point. Perhaps we should do something along the lines of giving credit if the character was used in an important situation OR in great quantity. I realize the problem with the "important situation" is that it's arbitrary. But regardless, the cases we talk about seem to have MK being used in important situations. So, even under this criteria he would warrant acknowledgment.
 

ShadowLink84

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Except that isn't the case, whenever someone is using KM its documented that they used MK for the great majority of the time.

That is why when they don't use MK for the majority of the time and only in 1 scenario, they are documented as have using Snake, because if Mk gets points, they will be too insignificant and are INACCURATE to the characters tournament performance


If ganondorf was given credit for winning one match in a tournament despite the user having used MK. ganondnrf would begin to move up higher than other characters BECAUSE of the MK's performance not because of his own.
 

da K.I.D.

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you say that every tourney match carries the weight of possibly being knocked out of the tourney...
what tourneys do you go to?

if you are in grand finals those matches are usually best of 5,7,or 9. if you are in a best of nine round match and you win the first 4 with sonic and than switch to CF just for the hell of it because you know you can win with sonic anytime you want to, than yes, CF shouldnt count, and any good TO wont count him. but if the score is tied 4-4 and the other guy plays DK on a stage you know you are really bad on, and you know youre going to lose if you pick sonic. than you pick D3 and win, even if its only for that one game, than D3 made the difference between you making 1st place money and 2nd place money...
therefore D3 should get tourney points for what he did...
 

ShadowLink84

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you say that every tourney match carries the weight of possibly being knocked out of the tourney...
what tourneys do you go to?

if you are in grand finals those matches are usually best of 5,7,or 9. if you are in a best of nine round match and you win the first 4 with sonic and than switch to CF just for the hell of it because you know you can win with sonic anytime you want to, than yes, CF shouldnt count, and any good TO wont count him. but if the score is tied 4-4 and the other guy plays DK on a stage you know you are really bad on, and you know youre going to lose if you pick sonic. than you pick D3 and win, even if its only for that one game, than D3 made the difference between you making 1st place money and 2nd place money...
therefore D3 should get tourney points for what he did...
So?
you're basically saying, because its winners finals, the character should get some credit for helping me win.
big whoop the character helps you win regardless if it is finals or not. the only reason it seems like the character does something accredited is because they helped you win the last match. When they could have just as easily helped you win the other matches, PRIOR to the finals.

Again even if we were to give some credit, you also have the fact that it does NOT provide an ACCURATE idea of how well the character did in the tournament.

It does not matter if its finals, semi finals, loser bracket semi finals. What matters is the fact that you used the character a certain amount of times so that it provides an accurate idea of how well the character did.

Yay DDD beat the MK in my final match what does that say? nothing at all. Just that my DDD beat the MK. it doens't say how well DDD did in the tournament, it does not say how well he would have performed at all.
All it says is that i used this character to beat this guy's character.

you say that every tourney match carries the weight of possibly being knocked out of the tourney...
what tourneys do you go to?
Duh.
While the finals involves a set of 9 that doesn't change the fact that if you lose prior to the finals you lose.

A loss is a loss regardless of when it happens.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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Don't do the color BS.
it annoys me to no end when I have to do 2x as much work to respond.


not true ecause like i said earlier, all matches are important because they all carry the same risk.


out of the other 91.667? Don
t make me laugh. That does not consistent enough to say, that the characters performance reflects upon their performance through out the tournament. it is not significant enough.
it is inaccurate.
He doesn't deserve any at all because it does not say anything about his performance!

Wrong, because he still would NOT reflect an accurate performance in the tournament and still reflects nothing about how good the character is.
No not all matches carry the same risk. If this where true then it would mean that scrub9234 has the same potential to knock you out of the tournament than M2K. The higher skilled your opponent the more risk is involved. This is common sense unlike "omg if you use a character he doesn't get credit."

I know that 8.334 is in accurate because but not because of what you think. Its in accurate because the amount of signifigance a character does in a tournament is not only measured by how many times he is used/wins/loses.

Talking about performance is pretty much contradicting your self. A character could preform better even if he is used the same amount of times. Lets say you use sonic 50 times and you use MK 50. If you win every time with MK and only half with sonic then MK deserves more credit even though they where used the same amount.

It would totally be accurate for ganondorf to be number 1 with MK in points because it totally means Ganondorf performs well in tournaments.
I shouldn't even have to debate this.
This part doesn't even make sense. I can't tell if your being sarcastic or actually trying to argue but either way you didn't actually refute my previous statement about ganon.


So?
you're basically saying, because its winners finals, the character should get some credit for helping me win.
big whoop the character helps you win regardless if it is finals or not. the only reason it seems like the character does something accredited is because they helped you win the last match. When they could have just as easily helped you win the other matches, PRIOR to the finals.

Again even if we were to give some credit, you also have the fact that it does NOT provide an ACCURATE idea of how well the character did in the tournament.

It does not matter if its finals, semi finals, loser bracket semi finals. What matters is the fact that you used the character a certain amount of times so that it provides an accurate idea of how well the character did.

Yay DDD beat the MK in my final match what does that say? nothing at all. Just that my DDD beat the MK. it doens't say how well DDD did in the tournament, it does not say how well he would have performed at all.
All it says is that i used this character to beat this guy's character.


Duh.
While the finals involves a set of 9 that doesn't change the fact that if you lose prior to the finals you lose.

A loss is a loss regardless of when it happens.
Of course said character could have helped you win in those previous matches but the point is that you didn't need them until winners finals. Its pretty much like when people say using C falcon against scrub234 doesn't count because that match didn't matter. If you use C falcon the entire time then go MK past the semi finals that counts more because its a higher level of play.

That DDD analogy says that the character you used to win money was DDD and that the character you used to get there was sonic. How ever sonic didn't get you any money nor first place.
 

da K.I.D.

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When they could have just as easily helped you win the other matches, PRIOR to the finals.
if you had to use them to win, than it counts then too...
Yay DDD beat the MK in my final match what does that say? nothing at all. Just that my DDD beat the MK. it doens't say how well DDD did in the tournament, it does not say how well he would have performed at all.
All it says is that i used this character to beat this guy's character.
...because you believed that your declared main wasnt going to be able to do the job.
 

ShadowLink84

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No not all matches carry the same risk. If this where true then it would mean that scrub9234 has the same potential to knock you out of the tournament than M2K. The higher skilled your opponent the more risk is involved. This is common sense unlike "omg if you use a character he doesn't get credit."
you're misunderstanding.
I am saying that if you lose int he first round of a tournament is the same as losing in the final round of the tournament.
Why? Because you lost.
Not necessarily that you have the same chance of wining or losing, but just the fact that if you win you win, but if you lose, you get knocked out.

it is common sense that using a character once in a tournament does not mean the character gets credit because it is inaccurate to the tournament results!

I know that 8.334 is in accurate because but not because of what you think. Its in accurate because the amount of signifigance a character does in a tournament is not only measured by how many times he is used/wins/loses.
because what?

Again a characters wins and losses tells you how well that character does in a HIGH level of play environment.
If I use ganondonrf once and he gets 8.422 points out of 100, that doesn't mean anything as to how well he did. it doesn't say he won 8 matches out of 100. it just says, I won a match, give me points.
Thats extremely inaccurate to how well the character did.



Talking about performance is pretty much contradicting your self. A character could preform better even if he is used the same amount of times. Lets say you use sonic 50 times and you use MK 50. If you win every time with MK and only half with sonic then MK deserves more credit even though they where used the same amount.
Wrong.
What did you read exactly?
I said if you USE a character the same amount then yes it counts.
However ,you use a character ONCE out of 100 battles and win does not say anything about how well they have done regardless of how well they have done.

you're saying that if a character is used during the finals even once, means they should get some points which is not true because that doesn't say anything abuout how well they did other than being used that one time.


if you had to use them to win, than it counts then too...
...because you believed that your declared main wasnt going to be able to do the job.
I must be speaking to a wall. Did you ignore everything I said about the tournament behavior.
If I use sonic 100 times then use Ike ONCE during the finals and win, does that mean Ike should get points?
No because it only says, Ike did well in THIS particular matchup. It does not say ANYTHING about how well they have done, or would have done in the tournament.

yeah I run into a problematic matchup and then CP'ed, that doens't mean the character I used for CP deserves credit just because he helped me win because it says nothing about how well that character performs.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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you're misunderstanding.
I am saying that if you lose int he first round of a tournament is the same as losing in the final round of the tournament.
Why? Because you lost.
not necessarily that you have the same chance of wining or losing, but just the fac you win or lost.

it is common sense that using a character once in a tournament does not mean the character gets credit because it is inaccurate to the tournament results!


because what?

Again a characters wins and losses tells you how well that character does in a HIGH level of play environment.
If I use ganondonrf once and he gets 8.422 points out of 100, that doesn't mean anything as to how well he did. it doesn't say he won 8 matches out of 100. it just says, I won a match, give me points.
Thats extremely inaccurate to how well the character did.




Wrong.
What did you read exactly?
I said if you USE a character the same amount then yes it counts.
However ,you use a character ONCE out of 100 battles and win does not say anything about how well they have done regardless of how well they have done.

you're saying that if a character is used during the finals even once, means they should get some points which is not true because that doesn't say anything abuout how well they did other than being used that one time.
No if you loose in the last round you get 2nd place money. How ever no one cares about who's losing anyways people care about who's winning.

Winning the first round of winners is not the same as winning the finals. Any ****** can tell you this. I'm sorry but your common sense sucks. There isn't really anything left your argue.

Especially when your saying things else this.
However ,you use a character ONCE out of 100 battles and win does not say anything about how well they have done regardless of how well they have done.

edit:
I must be speaking to a wall. Did you ignore everything I said about the tournament behavior.
If I use sonic 100 times then use Ike ONCE during the finals and win, does that mean Ike should get points?
No because it only says, Ike did well in THIS particular matchup. It does not say ANYTHING about how well they have done, or would have done in the tournament.

yeah I run into a problematic matchup and then CP'ed, that doens't mean the character I used for CP deserves credit just because he helped me win because it says nothing about how well that character performs.
The examples you keep giving are the exact reason that they should count more lol.

Winning against scrub23489 is not the same as winning against M2K in the finals. This particular match up is the one that decides weather or not you get those points in the first place.


If winning tournaments says nothing about how a character preforms then ankokus thread is a waste of time.
 

ShadowLink84

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What your way of saying how they are different is the fact in one position you gain money and in the other you don't?
What a laughable idea and you STILL have not tried to counter the fact that using a character once out of 100 times is completely inaccurate to that characters performance.

Address the arguments at hand or stop posting.

Don't strawman, that is not what I have said.

now address the fact that a character winning one match is not accurate to their tournament performance.
 

Arturito_Burrito

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What your way of saying how they are different is the fact in one position you gain money and in the other you don't?
What a laughable idea and you STILL have not tried to counter the fact that using a character once out of 100 times is completely inaccurate to that characters performance.

Address the arguments at hand or stop posting.
I did address. I even did it with mathematical fact and your response was "no" theres nothing left to address your just being thick headed now.

If you think its laughable then you better tell ankoku to come up with a much better thread where you count number of uses of a character in a tournament and not how well they do in it. we can just use that to ban MK :)
 

Inui

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is Mk really the best on norfair? cus if he isnt your last paragraph is moot. and if he is, hes the best on everystage anyway, so jesse might as well play Mk on every stage, which is what those of us for the ban are afraid of... not to mention the fact that Mks ledgecamping is better than everyone's on every stage...
MK = best character on the edge.

Nofair = nothing but edges and edge camping.

MK =/= the best on every stage. You people are honestly EXTREMELY ignorant as to how good characters like Snake, Olimar, and Falco really are.
 

da K.I.D.

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I must be speaking to a wall. Did you ignore everything I said about the tournament behavior.
If I use sonic 100 times then use Ike ONCE during the finals and win, does that mean Ike should get points?
that depends on which match in the finals, but in most cases, id have to say yes.
No because it only says, Ike did well in THIS particular matchup. It does not say ANYTHING about how well they have done, or would have done in the tournament.

yeah I run into a problematic matchup and then CP'ed, that doens't mean the character I used for CP deserves credit just because he helped me win because it says nothing about how well that character performs.
Ike did well in THIS matchup. It does not say ANYTHING about how well they have done, or would have done in the tournament.
Ike did well in THIS matchup. It does not say ANYTHING about how well they have done,
it seriously sounds to me, no matter how you phrase it, that you are contradicting your self
 

ShadowLink84

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I did address. I even did it with mathematical fact and your response was "no" theres nothing left to address your just being thick headed now.
Clearly you did NOT read what i said.

Out of the other 91.667? Don't make me laugh. That does not consistent enough to say, that the characters performance reflects upon their performance through out the tournament. It is not significant enough.
It is inaccurate.

Prove that if Ike wins ONE match that is held during the finals that it is ACCURATE to say as to how well that character performs.

If you think its laughable then you better tell ankoku to come up with a much better thread where you count number of uses of a character in a tournament and not how well they do in it. we can just use that to ban MK :)
...
Ankoku said:
I am not accepting results in which the character was used only once in the tournament
<_<


@Kid: Why must you do something so stupid? I actually like you. So tell me why you just took my post, and tore it so that if fit YOUR idea?
how does it contradict itself when you consider the rest of what is said?
 

Zankoku

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I'll have to clarify, I suppose. I won't accept results in which some dude decides, "hey, I want some Falcon rep, I'll pick Falcon for this one match even though I'll end up losing it."

However, DSF went all Meta Knight except against Plank, where he went Snake for all three rounds of that set in loser's finals. Therefore Snake did get the points, even though DSF only used Snake "once."
 

da K.I.D.

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you are misquoting ankoku, i quote him like 2 pages ago, he said that the other character doesnt count if you only used him for a joke match in the first round... if you spent the rest of the time (up to and including finals) as your main

EDIT: thank you ankoku, for clearing that up
 

ProBrawler

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Hey now, don't bash the mid/low tier characters, lol. I'm basically a mid/low tier main, both of my mains and secondaries are in those two groups. And I still plan on winning tournies w/ them, beating the top/highs along the way. I already do have some success using them and will be going to more tournies to kick some overused butt. I'll show that, w/ enough skill and practice, any character can compete. *is idealistic* =D But anyway, that's irrelevant to the MK issue. The point still stands that, even though I plan on beating him or whoever regardless, he's detrimental to the general metagame imo.

The above two posts tell the truth, once again... ^^^^
 

Arturito_Burrito

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Clearly you did NOT read what i said.

[/b]
Prove that if Ike wins ONE match that is held during the finals that it is ACCURATE to say as to how well that character performs.



...


<_<
Thats why I told you to tell him to come up with a different way of doing it where winning with sonic in the first round counts just as much as winning with him in the finals. If anokuko doesn't accept characters that where used in the finals and only in the finals then hes thread fails. edit: but he doesn't run it like that :laugh:

Its accurate enough to say that he won every time he was used in the tournament. More matches do help make it more accurate but what number of matches is required to meet the level of accuracy people want can't be determined. Some one could always say we need more #s.

Me and da kid already gave you plenty of scenarios where winning once matters more.

As for that garbage character thing I'm just going with what inui said. I also think that his 4 man made tier list doesn't have falco as top but I don't remember and don't want to go check.

edit2: once again I'm not bashing low/mid tiers I'm a mid tier main my self. But every time Inui says that a high or lower tier character can do good I have to throw it in his face that he said only top gets to win and that none of us told him he was wrong so it was agreed upon that Olimar is useless.
 

ShadowLink84

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you are misquoting ankoku, i quote him like 2 pages ago, he said that the other character doesnt count if you only used him for a joke match in the first round... if you spent the rest of the time (up to and including finals) as your main

EDIT: thank you ankoku, for clearing that up
Thats basically what has been said by both you and arturito. That if a character is used in one match to win the finals its okay and they should get some of the points.
ONE match doesn't say anything.


Thats why I told you to tell him to come up with a different way of doing it where winning with sonic in the first round counts just as much as winning with him in the finals. If anokuko doesn't accept characters that where used in the finals and only in the finals then hes thread fails. edit: but he doesn't run it like that
yaeah, he rus it according to what happens. you're saying if a character wins one match in the finals he should get points. Thats inaccurate while Ankoku runs it according to the set.
Its accurate enough to say that he won every time he was used in the tournament. More matches do help make it more accurate but what number of matches is required to meet the level of accuracy people want can't be determined. Some one could always say we need more #s.

Me and da kid already gave you plenty of scenarios where winning once matters more.
The problem is that just winning once doesn't mean anything. While in the ase of plank as Anoku said the character was used for the entire set.

Just popping up a falco once during the final round doesn't mean anything unless that character was throughout the final rather than showing up once in the final.

They'd have t show that they performed well during the set rather than just performing well in that one match.

i'll secede that it may be important that a character wins once during the finals, but that wouldn't change the fact that a character winning once during the finals means little.
 
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