The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[TheReflexWonder]

Peach has not yet been exposed to her full extend in tournies. And her meta game just keeps growing. Up air chain was discovered not too long ago, and that is being worked on to her metagame. Making matches a lil easier. Wolf gets 0-death with this.

I'm not asking for tournament results. I'm saying because of how the game works, Peach does not have enough speed to reliably deal with many characters. People make mistakes, but when Meta Knight sets the pace for spacing and not Peach, Meta Knight has to make the wrong moves. When he doesn't, Peach can't do much about it at all.

And this is brawl, seems like you think Peach would be the only one that would have to chase people. People love to camp, play gay and run like cowards. I been through this many times and beaten it. I use what tools my characters has to deal with this. I work with what I got. And from what I hear from you all the time is "Peach is so slow, just run and camp her, plank her and play can, she really can't do anything about it." Thats false.

This isn't Peach-specific, though--This is the same reason that Luigi isn't competitive viable, and the same reason that I don't see Kirby as competitive viable. Note that they all make excellent Teams partners, and a large contributing factor of that is the fact that there's nowhere to move, so to speak, so they don't have such trouble with basic spacing techniques.

 

[<π]

Ike can do what now

Ike has more range than MK, I've seen good Ikes do well against top MKs. if ike isn't getting hit off stage and gimped early he has the tools to do well in that fight.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm not asking for tournament results. I'm saying because of how the game works, Peach does not have enough speed to reliably deal with many characters. People make mistakes, but when Meta Knight sets the pace for spacing and not Peach, Meta Knight has to make the wrong moves. When he doesn't, Peach can't do much about it at all.

Yes she does. Cause me and other Peach players have dealt with it. Just what Peach players have you been playing alot to come to this logic?

This isn't Peach-specific, though--This is the same reason that Luigi isn't competitive viable, and the same reason that I don't see Kirby as competitive viable. Note that they all make excellent Teams partners, and a large contributing factor of that is the fact that there's nowhere to move, so to speak, so they don't have such trouble with basic spacing techniques.

I know it isnt Peach specific. But you say all these things that you think not make Peach tourny playable. Stuff PEACH players that use her in tourny been through and dealt with. And the same time her metagame is STILL growing and has yet to reach the highist point of it. Or as any Peach player alive played at the highiest point of her meta game for you to even be saying this.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes she does. Cause me and other Peach players have dealt with it. Just what Peach players have you been playing alot to come to this logic?

Please, tell me how many Peach players have beaten Mew2King in a single game with Peach.

THAT is the top of the metagame. When I see that, I might question it, though even in that case, it's hard to question because of the way everything works in Brawl. I would be quick to wonder how much Peach experience Mew2King really has in that case.

I know it isnt Peach specific. But you say all these things that you think not make Peach tourny playable. Stuff PEACH players that use her in tourny been through and dealt with. And the same time her metagame is STILL growing and has yet to reach the highist point of it. Or as any Peach player alive played at the highiest point of her meta game for you to even be saying this.

I mean, I can and do win in-state tournaments with Pokémon Trainer. I don't claim that because I can and have reliably defeated the #2 spot on the Alabama Power Rankings (a Meta Knight player), Pokémon Trainer has the the tools to realistically keep up with the best and most knowledgeable Meta Knights (though I have good reasons for that!). Will_ is no Mew2King.

The fact that there's always a higher point in the metagame is irrelevant. The future isn't the metagame we're talking about. This isn't about undiscovered techniques. It's about the most skillful use of what we know. While that takes more than a little theorycrafting at times, a growing metagame only matters when the growth matters significantly, generally speaking.

 

[<π]

@REFLEX
I think peaches glide toss makes up a lot of her ground speed. you can safely close a lot of gaps with that. Her float is a great zoning tool (expeacually with a plucked item in hand) thats hard to punish and pass through.

I understand where you are coming from reflex; the main way I fight sheik is running from her, but she definitely has tools for avoiding conflict as well as keeping presure up and closing distance quickly

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

This isn't Peach-specific, though--This is the same reason that Luigi isn't competitive viable, and the same reason that I don't see Kirby as competitive viable. Note that they all make excellent Teams partners, and a large contributing factor of that is the fact that there's nowhere to move, so to speak, so they don't have such trouble with basic spacing techniques.

Just to confirm, is it air speed and manuverability we're talking about here? Or just running speed and attacking speed etc. included as well?

I wouldn't have said she's that slow but I think I can see where you're coming from. Does it have something to do with her long lasting aerials and fairly average horizontal air speed?

Please, tell me how many Peach players have beaten Mew2King in a single game with Peach.

THAT is the top of the metagame. When I see that, I might question it, though even in that case, it's hard to question because of the way everything works in Brawl. I would be quick to wonder how much Peach experience Mew2King really has in that case.

*giggles and posts that match of Kyon*

xD

Yes yes I know he got a Bob-omb don't throw things at me

 

[DMG]

Uair chain doesn't work that well with good SDI actually. Even some of the characters that fall REALLY fast can escape it with good SDI.

But of course, someone is gonna come in here and say "Oh Silly DMG, you and your SDI to solve all the world's troubles, you must be insane if you are REALLY suggesting you can SDI Uair".

 

[Meru.]

None of the Peaches are as good as m2k :l.

Oh, and Peach has fast attack speed btw.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Please, tell me how many Peach players have beaten Mew2King in a single game with Peach.

THAT is the top of the metagame. When I see that, I might question it, though even in that case, it's hard to question because of the way everything works in Brawl. I would be quick to wonder how much Peach experience Mew2King really has in that case.

I mean, I can and do win in-state tournaments with Pokémon Trainer. I don't claim that because I can and have reliably defeated the #2 spot on the Alabama Power Rankings (a Meta Knight player), Pokémon Trainer has the speed to keep up with the best and most knowledgeable Meta Knights. Will_ is no Mew2King.

The fact that there's always a higher point in the metagame is irrelevant. The future isn't the metagame we're talking about. This isn't about undiscovered techniques. It's about the most skillful use of what we know. While that takes more than a little theorycrafting at times, a growing metagame only matters when the growth matters significantly, generally speaking.[/QUOTE]

How many times I have to tell you NO ONE has played Peach to her full extend. NO-ONE-AT-ALL.

And I bet if a Peach was to kick his ***, there be some excuse. To seriously know if a character can't handle something is to see them at full force. If ever Peach player in the world was to play the ganon match up bad, does this mean ganon beats Peach? No one in the owrld is playing Peach to about 50% of her full ability. So they all keep losing to ganon. Or if we wanted to make a realistic example, Peach vs Link or Mario with what I just said in this paragraph.

Now if you wanted to get at this M2K stuff.

- No Peach player alive is as smart as M2K, so you bring that up is clearly insane as to no Peach player beating him.

- MK is the best in the game under the control of M2K.

- MK beats Peach.

- No Peach player has never played Peach at the hight point of her metagame. and to a point her metagame keeps growing for that matter.

So that logic with M2K does not prove anything at all.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Uair chain doesn't work that well with good SDI actually. Even some of the characters that fall REALLY fast can escape it with good SDI.

But of course, someone is gonna come in here and say "Oh Silly DMG, you and your SDI to solve all the world's troubles, you must be insane if you are REALLY suggesting you can SDI Uair".

Wasn't there something with percentage/knockback and something with if theyre low you cant sdi something D:

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just to confirm, is it air speed and manuverability we're talking about here? Or just running speed and attacking speed etc. included as well?

It's everything combined, of course. Still, I would also argue that in most cases, air speed and maneuverability is most important.

I wouldn't have said she's that slow but I think I can see where you're coming from. Does it have something to do with her long lasting aerials and fairly average horizontal air speed?

The fairly average horizontal air speed, bad walk/run speed, and lack of distance on her jumps are my biggest issues, really. She also doesn't have great means of approaching against many characters, and she's pretty much forced to in order to do anything particularly threatening.

*giggles and posts that match of Kyon*

xD

Yes yes I know he got a Bob-omb don't throw things at me

Heh, get wrecked, me.

@REFLEX
I think peaches glide toss makes up a lot of her ground speed. you can safely close a lot of gaps with that. Her float is a great zoning tool (expeacually with a plucked item in hand) thats hard to punish and pass through.

I understand where you are coming from reflex; the main way I fight sheik is running from her, but she definitely has tools for avoiding conflict as well as keeping presure up and closing distance quickly

Right. The glide toss helps, but I would say her worst issue is dealing with people that can avoid her in the air or safely approach from a diagonal angle.

It's the fact that characters with better mobility and spacing tools set the pace, which is a serious issue for Peach, because that's a lot of characters.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If I am not mistaken, your SDI can be chased with the Up-air chain. Moves getting weak in this came atually have a use. And Peach is abusing it.

 

[DMG]

Wasn't there something with percentage/knockback and something with if theyre low you cant sdi something D:

You cannot DI those kind of attacks.

For example, Falco's Dthrow CG. People are "stunned" for a long time, and cannot move/DI until the CG would end/they are too damaged. The same thing applies to attacks that "stun" like that, except you are allowed to SDI.

Some attacks, like weaker first jabs, you cannot SDI a really noticeable amount (you can still SDI them, but not very far). Her Uair though you can SDI a pretty good distance. It's not like Shiek's Usmash where you can SDI half the distance of FD rofl, but it's still pretty noticeable.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

None of the Peaches are as good as m2k :l.

Oh, and Peach has fast attack speed btw.

That's a shame.

Also, she does have a generally fast attack speed. I agree with that wholeheartedly.

How many times I have to tell you NO ONE has played Peach to her full extend. NO-ONE-AT-ALL.

To seriously know if a character can't handle something is to see them at full force. If ever Peach player in the world was to play the ganon match up bad, does this mean ganon beats Peach? No one in the owrld is playing Peach to about 50% of her full ability. So they all keep losing to ganon. Or if we wanted to make a realistic example, Peach vs Link or Mario with what I just said in this paragraph.

Actually, it DOES mean that Ganon beats Peach; at least, in the current metagame. While theorycrafting might help in concept, if no one can reliably put it into action right now, then I would say that Ganon beating Peach is an accurate statement to make.

Now if you wanted to get at this M2K stuff.

- No Peach player alive is as smart as M2K, so you bring that up is clearly insane as to no Peach player beating him.

- MK is the best in the game under the control of M2K.

- MK beats Peach.

- No Peach player has never played Peach at the hight point of her metagame. and to a point her metagame keeps growing for that matter.

So that logic with M2K does not prove anything at all.

Well, I meant something along the lines of "comes close to beating him," so I apologize for my word choice. For this statement, I don't think that's unreasonable to ask, as long as you're saying "Peach players have proven that they can hang with Meta Knight."

Meta Knight beats a lot of characters, yeah.

The highest point of the current metagame is what the best Peach player is capable of. That's what the tier list is concerned with. What (s)he can learn is part of what (s)he is capable of, as well, but does it really propel the character to a status such as B Tier?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

It's everything combined, of course. Still, I would also argue that in most cases, air speed and maneuverability is most important.

The fairly average horizontal air speed, bad walk/run speed, and lack of distance on her jumps are my biggest issues, really. She also doesn't have great means of approaching against many characters, and she's pretty much forced to in order to do anything particularly threatening.

Mmm I imagine Peach is Ganon slow in comparison to the likes of Wario and Squirtle xD

Glide Tossing is a useful approach but Turnips biggest use if you ask me are normally to punish someone who attacks your sheild or very minor landing lag...and if they just sit there then, well, Peach won't really be going anywhere. She's lucky in that shes got near to lagless aerials so provided you space them well the worst that will happen normally is no one will take any damage (i.e. she'll miss or hit a shield)

Peach is the only character I play and care about though and considering where I live I'm probably (infact most likely) not the best person to discuss this kind of stuff massively indepth

 

[Louisdebou]

First at all, sorry for my bad english.

In France, one of the best player uses Peach (Marth as secondary), he's called Leon IG. Personnaly, i've never see how a US Pro peach player play (maybe cause it's not a very famous character) but i find Leon very skilled. He does something original : he won a match against the actually best french player Kaos who play MK.

Here is the link to the video of this match : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jldIjJyNszw&feature=related

I don't want to say that Peach is a S/A Tier but i agree with Dark.Pch's point of view.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Leon is legit, I concur

 

[Meru.]

Leon has an awesome Peach! Can't wait to play him sometime x3.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

That Leon video was good. I didn't know France had such a talented scene.

Although the video is a little old, I was also very impressed by MR-R's Marth vs Kaos's MK, specifically @1:45 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clDyy070Bjw#

 

[adumbrodeus]

That Leon video was good. I didn't know France had such a talented scene.

Mr-R is a Marth boards regular, but I'll say this, their MK game is behind ours.


It's a cool-mix-up but not a combo, and a lot of his tricks are stuff US MKs have moved past getting caught in except rarely. For example, no DI out of down dancing blade.


Don't get me wrong, he's good, just we gotta remember that the scenes are different.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Mr-R is a Marth boards regular, but I'll say this, their MK game is behind ours.


It's a cool-mix-up but not a combo, and a lot of his tricks are stuff US MKs have moved past getting caught in except rarely. For example, no DI out of down dancing blade.


Don't get me wrong, he's good, just we gotta remember that the scenes are different.

I agree it looks like their MK's are still playing too aggressively. The US MK's are definitely smarter and campier. I did not know France had a scene at all though, and they look very talented. That's mostly what I was pointing out.

 

[Meru.]

Mr-R is a Marth boards regular, but I'll say this, their MK game is behind ours.


It's a cool-mix-up but not a combo, and a lot of his tricks are stuff US MKs have moved past getting caught in except rarely. For example, no DI out of down dancing blade.


Don't get me wrong, he's good, just we gotta remember that the scenes are different.

Mr. R is Dutch.

Netherlands is where it's at.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Lol kaos is normally a camping *****.

Plankaos, plankaos!

Also lol@theKANKERCOMBO

 

[adumbrodeus]

Mr. R is Dutch.

Netherlands is where it's at.

Yea, I know, you cool.


But Europe in general I mean.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's a shame.

I'm sorry we don't spend ,uch of out time with this game to a point we become a robot.

Actually, it DOES mean that Ganon beats Peach; at least, in the current metagame. While theorycrafting might help in concept, if no one can reliably put it into action right now, then I would say that Ganon beating Peach is an accurate statement to make.

People tend to put the balme on characters alot. it's the players fault for losing. it's not really the character or much with the metagame. Peach has never been used to the top of her meta game. To a point where she has not rbought in alot of results. And why is that, cause Peach just can't do it? her flaws hold her back. Nah dude. Blame the player behind Peach. Not the character itself. Every lose I get I blame myself for being stupid. It's my fault and not gonna blame it on the character. I need to step it up more to win and not make these mistakes. Me blaming Peach for my loses and downgrading her is foolish. Same goes with other characters.

Well, I meant something along the lines of "comes close to beating him," so I apologize for my word choice. For this statement, I don't think that's unreasonable to ask, as long as you're saying "Peach players have proven that they can hang with Meta Knight."

Meta Knight beats a lot of characters, yeah.

The highest point of the current metagame is what the best Peach player is capable of. That's what the tier list is concerned with. What (s)he can learn is part of what (s)he is capable of, as well, but does it really propel the character to a status such as B Tier?

Peach players are able to hang with meta. But they just get annoyed so much by him, to a point they can't play him well. and cry about him all the time. You can play well if you are annoyed and can't stand a character. I would know this, lucario uses to piss me the **** off. and would even lose to noob lucarios. I was way better than these players, but he just pissed me off to no end. so I could not beat a lucario. Now I learned to calm down and see why I lost to them. Now I can kick thier *****.

You have to also remember peoples mentality and how annoyed they get in a match can affect how they play. W/e the best Peach is able to do does not mean much for he/she is not playing at the highiest point with the character. No one alive has yet done this.

But I'll tell you this much. Up till today, Peach players have done enough to show that she is B tier and sure as hell deserved it. No bias or free rides. We worked our buts off and shown it wether people wanted to belive it or not.

First at all, sorry for my bad english.

In France, one of the best player uses Peach (Marth as secondary), he's called Leon IG. Personnaly, i've never see how a US Pro peach player play (maybe cause it's not a very famous character) but i find Leon very skilled. He does something original : he won a match against the actually best french player Kaos who play MK.

Here is the link to the video of this match : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jldIjJyNszw&feature=related

I don't want to say that Peach is a S/A Tier but i agree with Dark.Pch's point of view.

I have heard of that dude many times. he is really good.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

But I'll tell you this much. Up till today, Peach players have done enough to show that she is B tier and sure as hell deserved it. No bias or free rides. We worked our buts off and shown it wether people wanted to belive it or not.

Peach is definitely B-Tier. No question about that in my opinion. She's definitely not A--and I'm not sure if she will be ever or any time soon--but she has surely earned B-Tier, I agree.

Honestly though, I think part of why Peach and some others are rated "too low" is that there are too many tiers. I don't think we need so many, especially in the middle.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

No one has played Ganon at the top of his metagame. Ganon for S tier.

 

[stingers]

No one has played Ganon at the top of his metagame. Ganon for S tier.

Sorry, I think Albert L has definitely solidified Ganon's spot in the S tier already.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Mr. R is Dutch.

Netherlands is where it's at.

The Netherlands sounds like my sort of country considering its liberal values. Too bad I'm complete **** at learning languages...

No one has played Ganon at the top of his metagame. Ganon for S tier.

If by S Tier, you mean 'sucks so unbelievably hard it makes you want to tear someone's throat out in frustration at how much they messed him up' tier, you'd be 100% correct.

 

[Meru.]

The Netherlands sounds like my sort of country considering its liberal values. Too bad I'm complete **** at learning languages...

Lol don't even bother learning Dutch then. Stupidly hard.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Learning dutch is a waste of time

*looking at SFP*

 

[Louisdebou]

I did not know France had a scene at all though, and they look very talented. That's mostly what I was pointing out.

We don't have the same language and the same forum to discuss competevly of this game. I mean, we're not very present on SmashBoard in general that's true but that's doesn't mean that we can't play decently this game (even if me personaly i'm really not skilled compared to Kaos, Mr-R...)

And yeah, there are a lot of tournament where some european players comes. For the TSL4 (in France), many famous european players was here as Izaw, Marcbri, istudying, Mr-R etc.

 

[FaWa]

Ness > Lucas.
Puff > Samus
Wolf > A lot
Peach > A lot
DK > A lo- (Owait DDD)
A lot > DK

 

[Chuee]

Puff > Samus.
lmao that isn't true.

 

[FaWa]

Puff is actually proving to be a little better then what she's worth. If not over Samus then just in the same tier as her. Just get Puff out of bottom tier, she doesn't belong there. (She still does suck though.)

 

[Chuee]

Jiggz belonges in bottom tier. She gets wrecked by half the cast.

 

[FaWa]

So does Samus.

 

[Chuee]

Not really.

 

[FaWa]

*Points to matchup thread*

*Signals to Samus's position.*

*Presents Jigglypuff's position.*

I know, the difference isn't huge, but you can't say Jigglypuff gets destroyed by half the cast and Samus doesn't with scores like that.

 

[Chuee]

Samus doesn't get wrecked as much as jiggz does and has better tourney rep.