The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Matador]

Actually, Ike's Jab is amazing, but Bowser's Fortress is just that much more amazing.


Even if Ike had the best jab in the game (which is possible, I haven't had a chance to do a direct comparison with Falco's grab yet), Fortress has properties which make it far more useful then any jab in the game, hands down.

So, you're right about fortress>Ike's jab, you just underrate Ike's jab.

How d'you figure? I said the same thing you did, except I think his jabs are "good" and you think they're "amazing".

Even then, what makes Ikes jab game so spectacular? It's good when close range vs your opponent, but his jab game isn't that much better than Mario's, or Luigi's, or ZSS' (though generally used differently from what I can tell), or CF's.

 

[ruin`]

In hitbox frame data, no, but the effect ike's jab has on the shield is much different than mario's, luigi's and ZSS'. Take ZSS for instance, you can shield her entire jab string into grab, same goes for the jab cancel. You have enough time to grab after the first jab cancel. However, the same isn't for ike. Luigi on the other hand, has a similar push back on shield as ikes, but the string doesn't lead into more jabs . They are different and used in different fashions. ZSS by far the worst imo.

 

[Albert.]

Is it?

@Discussion:
I still don't see any reason why I have to legitimate my invitation to the SBR. And I will not legitimate my invitation to the SBR, anyway.

Thanks for the backup, though, adumbrodeus and ShadowLink.

Spoiler

Even though it came a little late, haha... <.<

Just something I'd like to say, the verb form of "legitimate my invitiation"

Is legitimize.


so It would be "I don't have to legitimize my invitation (you *******s)"

(which I agree with)

just trying to point it out to HELP.

LOL

 

[Red Arremer]

Just something I'd like to say, the verb form of "legitimate my invitiation"

Is legitimize.


just trying to point it out to HELP.

Thank you. I never claimed I was good at English, which I'm not.

 

[Matador]

In hitbox frame data, no, but the effect ike's jab has on the shield is much different than mario's, luigi's and ZSS'. Take ZSS for instance, you can shield her entire jab string into grab, same goes for the jab cancel. You have enough time to grab after the first jab cancel. However, the same isn't for ike.

So basically you can't shieldgrab out of his jabs?

Luigi on the other hand, has a similar push back on shield as ikes, but the string doesn't lead into more jabs . They are different and used in different fashions.

Ike can either jab -> jab, or jab -> grab.

Luigi's options after *jab, even on shield, are literally scary.

ZSS by far the worst imo.

For that purpose, maybe....amongst those 3.

 

[mountain_tiger]

It still bothers me how the tier list is based on how characters fair against Meta Knight.

Well, it makes sense really. The tier list is essentially looking at who has the most potential under tournament coniditons, and therefore characters that are used more are given higher priority regarding other characters' matchups against them. And we all know that tehre are a lot of MKs out there...

Oh, and isn't the Jigglypuff vs MK matchup around 40:60 MK's favour?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Fortress = best OOS option in the game.

Ike's jabs = good CQC, made especially important for Ike because his close quarters game is nonexistent without it.

Fortress is of top tier quality. Ike's jabs aren't even best in the game. They're just good.

Ike's jab game is, without a doubt, the best in the game. I've looked at Luigi's. It isn't better.

Do I have to link back to that freaking huge list of things can Ike do out of ONE jab that I posted who knows how many posts back? He's going to rack up a heck of a lot more damage then Luigi will. Luigi has Jab -> Up B being the only "great" jab thing he can really do. He's not going to be racking up the same amount of damage, or forcing as much pressure.

 

[Suspect]

Luigi can also jab->grab and jab->dsmash (sometimes just like ike)

he doesn't only have jab->upB

 

[da K.I.D.]

jab up b is the only worthwhile thing luigi can do that ike doesnt do better

 

[Suspect]

luigi's throws are better than ikes

 

[Matador]

Ike's jab game is, without a doubt, the best in the game. I've looked at Luigi's. It isn't better.

Do I have to link back to that freaking huge list of things can Ike do out of ONE jab that I posted who knows how many posts back? He's going to rack up a heck of a lot more damage then Luigi will. Luigi has Jab -> Up B being the only "great" jab thing he can really do. He's not going to be racking up the same amount of damage, or forcing as much pressure.

Yes, please link back to your list. That'll make things a little easier for me.

jab up b is the only worthwhile thing luigi can do that ike doesnt do better

Luigi can legitimately jab -> SH aerial of his choice as a mix-up because of the speed of his aerials. Ike can jab -> jab or jab -> grab.

Even if jab -> upb were the only thing he could do....it's Luigi's jab -> upB. It is THE greatest possible option from jab cancel in the game.

Edit:

luigi's throws are better than ikes

I wouldn't necessarily say that. They both have good setups from throws, though I don't think Ike has a throw that does as much damage as Luigi's Bthrow.

 

[gm jack]

jab up b is the only worthwhile thing luigi can do that ike doesnt do better

Consideringhow early it can kill, I don't think you can really put that option down though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

luigi's throws are better than ikes

Ike has true combos out of his bthrow. >_> And mad platform games out of Uthrow and Dthrow. And a wall infinity with Fthrow.

 

[Kewkky]

luigi's throws are better than ikes

I can't believe how amazingly crappy Ike's throws are... They don't send you far (even at high %s), and they deal such low %... At least uthrow sets up for random upBs or off-the-top kills (since he can't practically juggle).

PS: Quick question: I keep seeing tl;dr here and there... What does it mean?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I can;t believe how amazingly crappy Ike's throws are... They don't send you far (even at high %s), and they deal such low %... At least uthrow sets up for random upBs or off-the-top kills (since he can't practically juggle).

Dthrow is a kill move. >_>

I'll try to look up that list now.

 

[Matador]

PS: Quick question: I keep seeing tl;dr here and there... What does it mean?

Too long; didn't read.

Usually tacked on wall-long posts.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes, please link back to your list. That'll make things a little easier for me.

Luigi can legitimately jab -> SH aerial of his choice as a mix-up because of the speed of his aerials. Ike can jab -> jab or jab -> grab.

Even if jab -> upb were the only thing he could do....it's Luigi's jab -> upB. It is THE greatest possible option from jab cancel in the game.

Edit: I wouldn't necessarily say that. They both have good setups from throws, though I don't think Ike has a throw that does as much damage as Luigi's Bthrow.

iirc you can possibly SDI away from the shoryuken. Don't remember though.
In anycase while Luigi certainly has a nasty ability to link into a shoryuken.
Ike's jab game is undoubtedly better.

It does more damage and can also link int other jabs and then a grab.
Certainly it does not have something like Luigi's shoryuken, but he is more versatile in terms of a jab game.

ou can also check based on frame data as well, Ike's jab has a high amount of hitstunfor a jab and can link into many things.
I think the only person he loses out to would be CF whose jabs are faster and can be followed up on more easily.


Certainly luigi has the greater bonus, but Ike has better damage output with his jabs overall.


@kewkky: Dthrow kills around 150% (LOL), his Bthow is a Cg on fatties and thats it really. @_@

 

[RaffoNara]

Yay,Ness lost 3 places

 

[Suspect]

1.Ike has true combos out of his bthrow. >_>

2. And mad platform games out of Uthrow and Dthrow.

3 And a wall infinity with Fthrow.

1.IIRC not 100% and character dependent

2. weegee + platforms= sex tho

3. banned...unless it is considered a tactic like jablock

 

[Matador]

iirc you can possibly SDI away from the shoryuken. Don't remember though.
In anycase while Luigi certainly has a nasty ability to link into a shoryuken.
Ike's jab game is undoubtedly better.

It does more damage and can also link int other jabs and then a grab.
Certainly it does not have something like Luigi's shoryuken, but he is more versatile in terms of a jab game.

ou can also check based on frame data as well, Ike's jab has a high amount of hitstunfor a jab and can link into many things.
I think the only person he loses out to would be CF whose jabs are faster and can be followed up on more easily.


Certainly luigi has the greater bonus, but Ike has better damage output with his jabs overall.

I'm not hearing anything besides "He can jab into another jab". It doesn't matter how much hitstun his jab has if there are no other legitimate options he has from jab other than another jab, or grab. That alone isn't enough, in my opinion, to give Ike a superior jab game to Luigi.

And yeah, jab -> upB for Luigi isn't guaranteed; none of his options are. I suppose that's one solid thing that Ike has over Luigi's jab game. However, if you're adding SDI into the mix, why can't you just SDI Ike's jabs?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

1.IIRC not 100% and character dependent

2. weegee + platforms= sex tho

3. banned...unless it is considered a tactic like jablock

1. It's 100% on all but like, 5 characters.

2. Ike below platform + you on platform above = bad day for you.

3. It's only to around 100%. It's not banned.

And the site is starting to spaz out on my computer again. The list was in the previous Tier List topic. IIRC. Either that, or it was in the character rankings topic....

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm not hearing anything besides "He can jab into another jab". It doesn't matter how much hitstun his jab has if there are no other legitimate options he has from jab other than another jab, or grab. That alone isn't enough, in my opinion, to give Ike a superior jab game to Luigi.

And yeah, jab -> upB for Luigi isn't guaranteed; none of his options are. I suppose that's one solid thing that Ike has over Luigi's jab game. However, if you're adding SDI into the mix, why can't you just SDI Ike's jabs?

Even with SDI Ike can still land his jab to jab. The jab~ grab ceases working at higher percents due to the pop up the opponent gets.

His are more easily performed and guaranteed to a certain extent.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, but isn't Snake's jab better than Luigi or Ike's? Apologies if I'm misinformed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

snakes jab is up there but i dont think its as good as ikes, luigis or CFs. snake doing his second jab negates any followups that he can have from it, at least i think it does, most times snakes jab can combo into f tilt but the f tilt will hit with an aerial knee, thus preventing the second hit from landing

Ikes jab game is the best in the game. the options that it has that are gauranteed are on par with luigi and the mindgames that it possesses that arent gauranteed far surpass luigis. not to mention ikes jab game is easier to initial due to the fact that ikes jab range is ******** and luigis is average. and i believe its faster too

 

[Matador]

Even with SDI Ike can still land his jab to jab. The jab~ grab ceases working at higher percents due to the pop up the opponent gets.

His are more easily performed and guaranteed to a certain extent.

Consistentcy automatically = better? Even with an attack potentially killing at 50% is in the mix?

Perhaps, but my original point about Ikes jabs were this. They aren't as valuable to a moveset as Bowser's fortress. Even if Ike's jabs ARE superior, which I'm not conceding to, they aren't marginally better. He has a great jab game, but that's all it is; a jab game. Reliable CQC in the event that he can't keep you at arms length till he can KO you.

Sorry, but isn't Snake's jab better than Luigi or Ike's? Apologies if I'm misinformed.

Snake's is one of the better ones and definitely one that I should've mentioned, but I doubt it's better than Ike's or Luigi's. His options from it aren't as reliable as Ike's OR as devastating as Luigi's.

Great jabs nonetheless.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Consistentcy automatically = better? Even with an attack potentially killing at 50% is in the mix?

Perhaps, but my original point about Ikes jabs were this. They aren't as valuable to a moveset as Bowser's fortress. Even if Ike's jabs ARE superior, which I'm not conceding to, they aren't marginally better. He has a great jab game, but that's all it is; a jab game. Reliable CQC in the event that he can't keep you at arms length till he can KO you.

Snake's is one of the better ones and definitely one that I should've mentioned, but I doubt it's better than Ike's or Luigi's. His options from it aren't as reliable as Ike's OR as devastating as Luigi's.

Great jabs nonetheless.

Oh on that i certainly agree.
Bowser's OOS fortress is EASILY the best OOS options and definitely beats out everything else.

Ike's jabs are great but nowhere near to as useful as the fortress.
I mean for gods sake he spins, as a turtle!
That alone means its better.

SNke's jabs are good, they lead into an Ftilt I think.

 

[Matador]

Ikes jab game is the best in the game. the options that it has that are gauranteed are on par with luigi

What options does Ike have from jab that're on par with Luigi's jab -> aerial (Fair -> Nair), jab -> Dsmash or jab -> upB?

and the mindgames that it possesses that arent gauranteed far surpass luigis.

....like what? I could simply give you a youtube link and prove you wrong here.

If I'm being jabbed by Ike, I'm thinking "oh ****, I need to DI or he's gonna be doing this awhile..."

If I'm being jabbed by Luigi, I'm thinking "oh ****, this may kill me..." -_-

The fact that Luigi can Dsmash, Fsmash, or upB from it is ammo for mindgames on its own.

not to mention ikes jab game is easier to initial due to the fact that ikes jab range is ******** and luigis is average. and i believe its faster too

Another great thing about Ike's jab is the range, I'll agree.

It's slower by one frame though, Luigi's is frame 2 and Ike's is frame 3 IIRC.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Correct ike's is 1 frame slower. Which isnt much but certainly helps.
The cooldown time for Luigi'sis better though Ike's hitstun makes up for it. IIRC

 

[Brinzy]

Ike has true combos out of his bthrow. >_>

Like what?

I think Ike's jab is good... as in, I would like Zelda to have it. I also think that his jab is seen as so great because it's one of his few worthwhile traits.

 

[Kewkky]

Like what?

bthrow>fsmash

Any normal person can rationalize that! :embarrass



... But I was wondering the same thing when I got told that, yet forgot to ask.

 

[Pablo51]

Lucas should go up, and maybe Link too.

Everyone else is fine.

Hmmm, I'm not feeling very opinionated today to join in 5-page debates about a single character. Maybe I missed Lucas' debate when I was skipping 100+ pages at one time. MAAAAYBEEE......

 

[ShadowLink84]

Like what?

I think Ike's jab is good... as in, I would like Zelda to have it. I also think that his jab is seen as so great because it's one of his few worthwhile traits.

Bthrow~Bthrow (fatass)
Bthrow~dash attack (most character I think)

 

[da K.I.D.]

What options does Ike have from jab that're on par with Luigi's jab -> aerial (Fair -> Nair), jab -> Dsmash or jab -> upB?

ike can literally do everything luigi can do out of his jabs, and it hurts more, except for the up b.

ike can do jab x2 to fair or nair, but they arent gauranteed. however at killing percents, jab x2 to turnaround bair is (unsure)

ike can do down smash out of jab, but its stupid and risky so they wouldnt bother. but when hitting an offstage opponent, ike has the oppurtunity to hit with the shoryuken level destruction, known as jab to down tilt.

also id need to check this but, im pretty sure ikes jab 1 2, to jab 1,2,3 does about 24%, which is more than most of luigis jab follow ups. luigis jab to aerial and jab to down smash both do less than 22%

....like what? I could simply give you a youtube link and prove you wrong here.

If I'm being jabbed by Ike, I'm thinking "oh ****, I need to DI or he's gonna be doing this awhile..."

If I'm being jabbed by Luigi, I'm thinking "oh ****, this may kill me..." -_-

The fact that Luigi can Dsmash, Fsmash, or upB from it is ammo for mindgames on its own.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4goJzib4UQ
:50 jab to up b
1:08 jab to f smash (kills earlier than shoryuken)
1:20 jab to dair (also ***** people that try to pull a quick tether to the edge
2:50 jab to down tilt again
3:05 one more time
3:55 jab to fair
4:20 no options out of his jab grabs huh?

i believe ike has much better damage output and better follow ups to his grabs

Another great thing about Ike's jab is the range, I'll agree.

It's slower by one frame though, Luigi's is frame 2 and Ike's is frame 3 IIRC.

my bad on the frame data

EDIT
back throw to dash attack is gauranteed on most characters when they are thrown offstage. a dash attack that kills around 80-90 range...

 

[smashkng]

Snake's first 2 hits of jabs often misses against small characters.

And with Ike, except Jab and Grab everything else is laggy (side b has fast start up but is easily punished if shielded).

 

[ShadowLink84]

ike can literally do everything luigi can do out of his jabs, and it hurts more, except for the up b.

No he cannot.

ike can do jab x2 to fair or nair, but they arent guaranteed. however at killing percents, jab x2 to turnaround bair is (unsure)

It isn't. The opponent can easily jump away or SDI away.

ike can do down smash out of jab, but its stupid and risky so they wouldnt bother.

It will NEVER hit the opponent because of how stupidly slow it is.
Its not exactly a 1 frame move plus it hits low, not guaranteed t all.

but when hitting an offstage opponent, ike has the oppurtunity to hit with the shoryuken level destruction, known as jab to down tilt.

Nope. Doesn't work either because the opponent can jump or airdodge through the Dtilt.
Its stupid but true.

:50 jab to up

Not really, its a good string thats for sure,
Its good when the opponent is trying to jump away cause they only have a few frames t escape it iirc.

1:08 jab to f smash (kills earlier than shoryuken)

No. Just... no.

1:20 jab to dair (also ***** people that try to pull a quick tether to the edge

Never gonna hit either

2:50 jab to down tilt again

great shield poke on stage.
not so much off stage from what I have seen.

3:55 jab to fair

That depends. The opponent usually has to jump away and not airdodge.
Its not something guaranteed.

i believe ike has much better damage output and better follow ups to his grabs

Most of those do not work at all. Mainly because the follo ups are too slow. If it were thatIke had quicker moves he could definitely folow them up but in reality, the only moves that can truly land are those around 6 frames in speed.

EDIT
back throw to dash attack is gauranteed on most characters when they are thrown offstage. a dash attack that kills around 80-90 range...

Bthrow ~Dair is sexier.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Okay, to respond to a few things easiest to hardest.

About Wario, I want to be clear that I agree that Wario is very good, but getting even just a few grabs landed on him is very bad in some matchups. Like, you get grabbed at any percent and lose your whole stock if stage positioning doesn't save you. I have actually done the research (once the wrong way and later the right way), and these are the characters who can infinite Wario:

Infinite with Double Jump:

Bowser*, Yoshi*, Zelda*, Zero Suit Samus*, Pit, R.O.B., Fox, Falco, Wolf@

Infinite without Double Jump:

Diddy Kong, Meta Knight

*: Can force a jump break on Wario on flat ground.
@: Wario gets a chance to use his double jump, but he gets grabbed before he can ascend.

In effect, this means that Wario has to worry about Bowser, Yoshi, Zelda, and Zero Suit Samus quite a bit. Now, he does have the advantage here that two of them (Bowser and Yoshi) are generally not very good, and the other two have really slow grabs. Still, their grabs are ICs grabs to Wario on top of whatever other good things they had against him. I bet Zelda in particular is the answer here; a really careful Zelda that fishes intelligently for grabs will probably be a massive pain for Wario. The main reason this hasn't happened yet is that Wario hasn't quite reached the point where people are willing to learn random characters specifically to counter him, but I think it's coming. A plethora of other characters (such as Snake) force jump breaks on him and get free good stuff. Like, every time Snake grabs Wario, he gets a free utilt. Another way to look at it is that every time Snake grabs Wario he gets Olimar's purple uthrow; it's just a little something extra that sucks. Now, you have to consider that Wario, moveset wise, is already just on parity with the rest of his tier. Wario's overall capabilities are worse than Meta Knight's and Snake's even if grab release didn't exist, and they are very close to King Dedede, Diddy Kong, Marth, and Mr. Game & Watch. Now, adding in this extra thing without giving him anything in return... It does matter; he has to go down. Granted, I don't think it's going to be all that far, but I don't think #3 (a very, very high position) is sustainable with this problem.

About FOW vs SK92, FOW didn't get grab released by Falco, and the commentator was generally clueless to what was actually going on. He was letting himself get grabbed and normally chainthrown by Falco a lot at low damage, and he wasn't landing the SDI on the dair to not die at the end of it. Ness gets dthrow chaingrabbed by Falco roughly as badly as Meta Knight (like up to ~50%). It's definitely a very useful tool for Falco in that matchup, but Falco can do that in a lot of matchups with Ness not being especially at risk to it. The second game in that set actually showed FOW playing a lot better (he won the second game, and it was close with both sides playing well); my guess from what I watched was that he just choked in the other games. That is, it was just him personally making mistakes, not some huge inherent weakness of Ness shining through. Ness's grab release problems are actually very akin to Wario's with the note that on one hand he only gets long chaingrabbed (though in Ness's case, unlike Wario's case, NOT infinited) by two characters... the only downside is that one of them is Marth (the other is Charizard who Ness destroys otherwise so it's okay). Like, I can't deny it's bad, but given how highly Donkey Kong is placed when he's practically autolose to King Dedede, I don't see why this issue has to put Ness so ridiculously low.

I am mind blown that there would be disagreement that Bowser is slow. Slow is a relative term to the rest of the cast. His sluggish moveset is only outsnailed by the likes of Ganondorf and Captain Falcon (yes, Captain Falcon has low attack speed), maybe a few other characters but I actually don't think so. His mobility is probably a little below average; his running speed is not bad and he falls at a decent rate, but his aerial mobility is bad and his jump takes a very long time to get off the ground. How is that not slow? It's definitely in the same league as Ike, probably overall a bit slower (though both are definitely slow). I know there's a goofy stigma in the smash community where it's unacceptable to call anyone slow, but really about 1/3 of the cast HAS to be slow by definition (unless the majority of the cast is about the same speed which is obviously untrue). Contrary to the culture, I don't think being slow is a kiss of death to a character (I would call Snake slow, and I'm not suggesting he move down at all). 1/3 of Brawl's cast is 12 characters. Can you name a full 12 characters slower than Bowser? Be forewarned that I can and will gather frame data to discount such claims.

As per fortress and jab, well first fortress. I don't think Whirling Fortress is the best OOS in the game. That would definitely be Marth's Dolphin Slash. Dolphin Slash is more deadly and, much more importantly, has a lot of range. Like, I'm looking at this as Mr. Game & Watch. I turtle Bowser's shield with good spacing. He uses Whirling Fortress and doesn't hit me with the initial hit because the range is bad. He maybe is able to hit me with the later hit that does almost no damage, maybe not (I can air control away on reaction to a fortress which makes it tricky for Bowser). On the other hand, Marth can hit me just about no matter what my spacing (I think I can pixel perfect outspace him, but it's human infeasible). In other words, a skilled Marth utilizing his up special out of shield totally nullifies my shield pressure game. With Bowser and his up special, he only forces me to utilize it more carefully.

It's not just G&W's turtle either. What if a Meta Knight is using dair on your shield? Marth's Dolphin Slash jumps up and catches him; he'll just jump over Whirling Fortress. Any number of characters could land a strong hit on a shield (Snake ftilt, G&W dsmash, MK dsmash, etc.). Marth will probably tippered Dolphin Slash to punish that (remembr shield pushback!). Your initial hit of Whirling Fortress is very likely to miss (if the attack is disjointed or if you don't throw it out right before your shield gets hit, which is much more limiting), and you only get the exceptionally weak later hit. I should stress that the later hit of your fortress is so weak that if I'm a character with a good shield pressure game, I'm willing to eat that to do shield damage to you. Like, fortress is still good, including OOS. I just don't think it's some magical gift from the heavens for Bowser. Most of the cast has something just as good (though usually not specifically for OOS).

Ike's jab combo is just amazing. It's good for jab cancels, has nice range/priority on all hits, and if done as a full jab combo does 16% and puts the enemy at a positional disadvantage. 16% is the same thing as landing a smash with most characters, and remember that Ike kills super low. It strikes fear into everyone from Meta Knight to Ganon.

It's still not the main reason I just can't see Ike as below Bowser. The most important things are Ike's range and the fact that he doesn't have nearly autolose matchups (Bowser has two: King Dedede and Ice Climbers; these are really huge and really bad and won't go away). The range is so huge. Just think about me as Mr. Game & Watch or Meta Knight or Marth with those nice disjointed attacks trying to bully the poor low tiers. Bowser can try to Whirling Fortress OOS but will run into trouble with its range; he can't fundamentally change my game plan. Ike, on the other hand, can outspace me and challenge me with moves such as his forward aerial that outrange everything I have. I can still use my other tools to play differently and exploit Ike's weaknesses of course, but Ike forces me to fundamentally change my game plan away from my baseline "beat low tier" plan. That's a really amazing thing to claim.

To be clear about exactly how I see things in the future/ideally, this is what I'd do...

I'd move Marth and Mr. Game & Watch up to S tier and Wario and Falco down to A tier. Marth and Mr. Game & Watch can be in any order with Diddy Kong and King Dedede (all four are really close). Wario I would put in the top slot in A tier, and I'd put Falco inbetween Ice Climbers and R.O.B.. Yeah, for all that production I made about Wario and grab release, I'm only saying he loses 4 places.

I really want to move Toon Link up to the top of his tier (and maybe move Kirby down to that tier), but I don't want to defend it so I'll leave it at that.

I'd switch Ike and Bowser. I'd then lower Sonic and Sheik down to the top of the tier below, combine Zelda & Sheik into one character, and then put Zelda & Sheik above Sonic (due to joint prowess).

I'd move Ness up to between DK and Peach (I'm unsure of which tier I'd put him in though). Seriously.

I'd generally jumble E tier a lot and incorporate Jigglypuff and Link into it, leaving F tier for just Captain Falcon and Ganondorf.

Otherwise, it doesn't perfectly match what I'd do or anything, but I think it's pretty good. The placement of Ness is the only thing I'd consider really glaringly off in any case. My penchant for getting into fruitless arguments (aren't all tier arguments?) is showing, but I really don't think it's a bad list.

 

[Matador]

ike can literally do everything luigi can do out of his jabs, and it hurts more, except for the up b.

UpB aside, Luigi can potentially combo from jab cancels into his aerials which, at low percentages, combo into each other.

For instance, jab -> Utilt -> aerial shenanigans

jab -> grab -> Dthrow -> aerials

Jab -> Fair -> Nair -> aerials

In the event that he needs the kill, jab -> up tilted Fsmash/upB are amazing options from jab cancel. The only difference is that his options aren't necessarily guaranteed, but still certainly viable even at the highest levels of play as mix-ups.

ike can do jab x2 to fair or nair, but they arent gauranteed. however at killing percents, jab x2 to turnaround bair is (unsure)

None are guaranteed, and even then they aren't as powerful as luigi's options since he can juggle from them.

ike can do down smash out of jab, but its stupid and risky so they wouldnt bother. but when hitting an offstage opponent, ike has the oppurtunity to hit with the shoryuken level destruction, known as jab to down tilt.

Luigi's jab -> Dsmash is a little more viable than Ike's mainly because if they normal shield it, he slides out of grab range. He also has lower ending lag on his Dsmash, though less KO power. I also believe Luigi's has faster startup, which is nice to have with jab cancels.

I don't know about the jab -> Dtilt, but Shadowlink said that also wasn't guaranteed, so it's basically in the same boat as Luigi's jab -> upB.

also id need to check this but, im pretty sure ikes jab 1 2, to jab 1,2,3 does about 24%, which is more than most of luigis jab follow ups. luigis jab to aerial and jab to down smash both do less than 22%. i believe ike has much better damage output and better follow ups to his grabs

If the opponent hasn't used a combo breaker or SDI'd out by the fifth jab, they deserve that 22%.

Luigi's Dthrow is pretty amazing for followups, though they are also not guaranteed; they rely more on proper DI reading and punishing airdodges.

Also, if Luigi's Bthrow is as similar to Mario's as I think it is, it 13%. Add a pummel and jab cancel, and that's pretty close to 20%, if not more. IIRC, none of Ike's throws do that much damage.

Edit @ Ampharos: Hasn't that infinite that Marth has on Ness been debunked by EIDI? Was it proven otherwise?

 

[:mad:]

Matador, as far as I know, EIDI doesn't really exist and it really is a true infinite. Lucas, however, can escape. Ness cannot.

Read the end of the thread, I think Ref admitted he lied or something.

 

[smashkng]

Ike is an extremely slow character in attack speed outside jab, including all his aerials, which is really bad. His other attacks outside jab are easily spot dodged which set up being punished even if he has amazing range.


Straked, EIDI set up tipper fsmash or dsmash for Marth, 2 overpowered attacks (don't really know which of them is actually).

 

[Matador]

Read the end of the thread, I think Ref admitted he lied or something.

Wow....that's pretty special.

Edit @ Spadefox: lol....he called Bowser slow. Imagine that. *waits to see response*

You'd better get BigFoot in here too, he'd want to hear this.