The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Wulfy07]

People also call fish sausage. Why does it matter?

Also, I don't think Peach should be B tier but *Shrugs* she might make the cut. I'm not an expert in that area. I will say, however, that G&W>Pikachu.

 

[Justblaze647]

I say... let's discuss it.

G&W vs Pika

 

[Ripple]

G&w has no true safe approach. tech chase kills only. lives longer?

pikachu has very safe approaches, chaingrabs, but no true kill moves except thunder reads

pikachu competes with the top tiers better than G&W so pikachu > G&W

 

[phi1ny3]

Pika also is the reason some otherwise decent characters can't go higher (spacies anyone?), even Falco might be up against his hardest MU when fighting Pika, unfortunately, Pika doesn't do too well against MK/Marth. However, both are very reasonable MUs that can be overcome.

 

[Justblaze647]

I always thought most kills from Pika would come from gimping

 

[da K.I.D.]

Most of pikachus kills come from his smashes, or the thunder that usually follows said smashes, or his nair. pretty much all of his kill options outside of thunder kill in the 130-150 range, and if you get past that, that opens up even more options for kills from things like his tilts.

Pikachus gimps arent all that great except for the fact that the closer you are to the blast zone the easier it is to kill with nair. However even though, most of the time, you do make it back to the stage against pika, getting back into a position where you can hit him, isnt the easiest of tasks, and in the process of getting back to the stage, pika can put a lot of damage on.

Pikachu in terms of flat out kill power is either average or slightly below average but the fact that he can kill you from so many different positions with so many options makes him very deadly, and then you add in the fact that should you make a wrong move for whatever reason, thunder can kill at 0, it makes up for his lack of straight up power.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

What do you guys think about G&W using the bucket to his advantage in the Pika v G&W match up? Isn't he able to get more than one charge out of a thunder? I think three of pika's neutral B's is enough power to kill too. I don't main either one though... lol. I'm just terribly curious as to what that adds to the match up.

 

[LuigiKing]

What do you guys think about G&W using the bucket to his advantage in the Pika v G&W match up? Isn't he able to get more than one charge out of a thunder? I think three of pika's neutral B's is enough power to kill too. I don't main either one though... lol. I'm just terribly curious as to what that adds to the match up.

HI TUEN! Didn't know you posted on smashboards. But your post caught my attention.

Anyway G&W already beats pika in the matchup, but bucket really isn't that useful. Pika is fast enough that even if G&W buckets a thunder jolt or something, you almost certainly have time to QAC a thunder right up in his face, which will probably kill around 70% if you hit with the strong part. Thats just my 2 cents.

Oh, and I think Pika is a loooottttttt better than GW at top levels of play.

 

[da K.I.D.]

not to mention that if the pika chooses to, he can give game and watch the 3 buckets, and than continue camping him, which, while ballsy, can be very effective.
pika can also attempt to throw jolts at g watch while hes recovering, and should he choose to bucket them, pika can continue filling the bucket and keep g watch in bucketlag until he is too low to recover.

basically both characters have massive potential for destruction when the bucket is introduced into the match.

 

[Wulfy07]

Pika also is the reason some otherwise decent characters can't go higher (spacies anyone?), even Falco might be up against his hardest MU when fighting Pika, unfortunately, Pika doesn't do too well against MK/Marth. However, both are very reasonable MUs that can be overcome.

No. Pikachu match up is 55-45. The falco boards are completely wrong in that case. Falco's only truly difficult match up is Ice Climbers.

What do you guys think about G&W using the bucket to his advantage in the Pika v G&W match up? Isn't he able to get more than one charge out of a thunder? I think three of pika's neutral B's is enough power to kill too. I don't main either one though... lol. I'm just terribly curious as to what that adds to the match up.

If Game and Watch gets a single Thunder, with two thunder jolts, it is as powerful as a bucket of three thunders. The bucket is as strong as the strongest attack times some number that I don't recall.

not to mention that if the pika chooses to, he can give game and watch the 3 buckets, and than continue camping him, which, while ballsy, can be very effective.
pika can also attempt to throw jolts at g watch while hes recovering, and should he choose to bucket them, pika can continue filling the bucket and keep g watch in bucketlag until he is too low to recover.

basically both characters have massive potential for destruction when the bucket is introduced into the match.

Game and Watch is officially winning if you give him bucket. EVEN IF you try to camp him, he doesn't have to bucket your camp game. He could be forced to approach, but that's it. At medium range, I will admit that G&W is very vulnerable if he buckets, but good G&Ws don't bucket if the lag takes too long.

You can't assume a stupid game and watch since he's a fairly hard counter the Pikachu.

I will grant that Pikachu does better against the S tier, but Game and Watch does better in the A tier, including Pikachu, so G&W deserves the spot over him.

Although, I think the BBR may give it to Pikachu in terms of placement.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Game and Watch is officially winning if you give him bucket. EVEN IF you try to camp him, he doesn't have to bucket your camp game. 2.. He could be forced to approach, but that's it. At medium range, I will admit that G&W is very vulnerable if he buckets, 3. but good G&Ws don't bucket if the lag takes too long.

4. You can't assume a stupid game and watch since he's a fairly hard counter the Pikachu.

5. I will grant that Pikachu does better against the S tier, but Game and Watch does better in the A tier, including Pikachu, so G&W deserves the spot over him.

Although, I think the BBR may give it to Pikachu in terms of placement.

1. Please elaborate.

2. Being forced to approach is a pretty big liability in this game.

3. Noted, though I have seen g watchs bucket something, not thinking that the opponent will intentionally keep making them bucket stuff solely for the lag that follows.

4. Also noted, though I disagree with the latter part of that sentance.

5. That doesnt make sence. Pikachu does better against the best characters, but g watch is better as a character because he does better against the less good characters, just because they are in the same tier? Thats like saying Samus is better than jigglypuff because she has a better matchup against ganon.

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. Please elaborate.

G&W and a number of characters can just attack through the jolts. he doesn't have to bucket it and really, shielding is a very good strategy in this game.

Powershield baby!

2. Being forced to approach is a pretty big liability in this game.

only if you lack the ability to approach.
While the defensive options in this game are strong, there are character slike Marth, who, while forced to approach, can deal with those defensive options.

3. Noted, though I have seen g watchs bucket something, not thinking that the opponent will intentionally keep making them bucket stuff solely for the lag that follows.

That is the fault of the G&W bucketing things near the opponent.

4. Also noted, though I disagree with the latter part of that sentence.

Then why assume a stupid G&W?

5. That doesnt make sence. Pikachu does better against the best characters, but g watch is better as a character because he does better against the less good characters, just because they are in the same tier? Thats like saying Samus is better than jigglypuff because she has a better matchup against ganon.

Think of it this way.
If Pikachu can go 6-4 against the top 5 characters. It doesn't automatically mean he is better than G&W who is going 55:45 against them.

Why?
Simply because G&W's impact on the rest of the roster is stronger than that of Pikachu.

 

[Ripple]

Think of it this way.
If Pikachu can go 6-4 against the top 5 characters. It doesn't automatically mean he is better than G&W who is going 55:45 against them.

Why?
Simply because G&W's impact on the rest of the roster is stronger than that of Pikachu.

I'm sorry but it pretty much only matters how you do against the top tiers.

even if pika has 55-45 or 60-40 on the lower half of the cast but G&W has 60-40 or better pikachu will be considered better because he does better against the top-tiers and has a better chance of winning

 

[DanGR]

GnW's ability to shut down the worser characters in this game really has no effect on his overall placement among the characters that actually matter. I don't care if he's got a 100:0 matchup against everyone in C-tier and lower. Those aren't the characters that have a great impact in large tournaments.

What matters is how well the character does against those that do shine in tournaments (MK, Snake, Falco, Wario, Marth, etc.), and realistically, GnW doesn't do really well while Pikachu certainly does, comparatively.

Among the characters that do really well in tournaments, their viability is determined by how well they do against each other. In today's metagame, that equates to your matchup with MK, sadly.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm sorry but it pretty much only matters how you do against the top tiers.

It primarily depends on how you view it.
In terms of factoring metagame behavior, yes, the top tier characters would weigh more.

even if pika has 55-45 or 60-40 on the lower half of the cast but G&W has 60-40 or better pikachu will be considered better because he does better against the top-tiers and has a better chance of winning

hardly, because it would also depend on how much better G&W is performing against those top tier characters i comparison to G&W.
If Pikachu is only performing marginally better, and then G&W is hitting overall harder than pikachu, that small difference isnt going to be enough to warrant pushing the character up.


So if we considered MK and Snake 55-45 against Pikachu.
While G&w is going 6-4 against the two, it would then fall on their overall performance.

Its like ignoring the fact that a low tier character hard counters a top tier character, on the basis of that character being low tier.
It still causes an impact.

 

[LegendaryLagger]

I'm a new poster, but I've read smashboards for awhile now.

One thing I wondered was if anyone had considered doing an analysis of overall effectiveness of the characters using a stochastic matrix, with entries based on the match-up values relative to each character. Personally I think that would provide some interesting information to factor into the tier list, has this been done before?

 

[adumbrodeus]

People have, most people don't pay attention.

 

[BSP]

GaW does great...until he gets to the characters that are used the most in tourneys.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think R.O.B. and G&W and ZSS should go down, and Lucario and Peach should go up.

G&W is very easy to deal with if you are patient and don't run into any smashes. R.O.B. is kind of the same way in that you just have to be patient and camp him back. ZSS is hard if you don't know the matchup, but in my opinion it's just a matter of knowing all of her limitations. I actually think she is really good, which is why I play her, but I don't think she should be as high as she is.

Maybe it's just because I play peach and I'm not excellent at killing, but it just infuriates me how well Lucario can camp and how little he has to do to just shut down a lot of characters. The opinion that Peach should move up is a bit biased, but she definitely deserves a boost, especially with all of the new techs that Peach players have been finding. How many non-peaches even know that she has a guaranteed Uair string that can do anywhere from 20-100% on everyone in the cast, and that she can walk while she pulls turnips with the c stick (which helps her camping and overall mobility greatly)?

After my month of failing hard with this character to a point of going to pound 4 and just doing horrible (I hardly won friendlie matches the whole time I was there and getiing 2-3 stocked by nearly everyone, noob or pro.) I lost the will for this game, my rights as a top Peach player or a good player in general. Just another random person that is not important/good. Then I decided to train with NL to learn all my match ups again, cause I forgot them all. I'm remembering them again. Still need to work on the others. And I did something I have not done (which is stupid cause I should have done this **** a while ago.)

- study Peach hit boxes
- Study the enemys hit box
- Frame data from both.
- the stuff Peach can do with her techs.
- Invis frames

Pretty much this is my run down:

Duration:
Hits on Frame:
Strong Hitbox Duration:
Weak Hitbox Duration:
Aerial Cooldown:
Landing Lag:
Autocancels on Frame:

Shield Stun:
Optimal Shield Advantage:
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage:

Next would be:

Ledge invincibility: 1-46
Minimum Time on Ledge: 25 frames
Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21

Notes:
- jump -> float gives a maximum of 10 frames invulnerability. If you decide to jump -> float -> land you'll have a max of 7 frames invincibility.
- ledge let-go cannot be buffered
- ledge let-go invincibility doesn't stack with action invincibility

Peach just might have one of the best ledge options in the game outside of planking.

After I am done here I have to go and look an how her hit box looks and works. Fromt here I have to figure out what I can do and not do wether with spacing or not. This comes into play with the list on her move frame data.

Once that is done, I then have to do the same with w/e match up I am going about. I have done wthis so far with Snake, meta Marth G&W and now working on lucario. First I have to check out thier frame datas. And last, how to handle the match up.

Peach is looking mighty fun from all of this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from doing my homework, G&W match up is looking rather Funny. Peach can evade alot of his moves while dishing out hers. And SDI hurts him cause she can couter attack his Bair. His smash attacks cant tuoch me while I short hop my moves to Dairs outside of upsmash. I can Float as well. Peach s starting to look better than G&W in my eyes. But I can't confirm anything yet. And he is over powered so he wins in that field.

Marth, to beat him and deal with his spacing, air game, Peach has to counter it grounded. Had to check out his hitboxes and do some math. And I said this before. Times Dash attacks or PS dash attacks can **** down his Fair and Nair. I dont always have to use Bair or fair to do so. But those are good options. Better than the dash attack one since it is harder. These 2 things can be harder than the other to do than the other depending on where you are on the stage and distance/spacing. The fact that is is hard to do it and get at marth is why the match up goes to him. If it was not that hard, it would not be so bad. But she can take him. And edgeguarding marth is looking fun

Snake, from what I studied with him, Jabbing inbetween his Tilts/jab pressure screws him up. And outside of his uptilt. Peach has an evasion tactic to weave the tilts and Dair/bair him. His air moves, I have no touce but to leave alone onless he is over me and I just uptilt. Since there is no move when above Peach that beats it in this game. Which is why she ***** on platforms and had good pressure on it. equal or better to the rest. in general, you have to have good reaction time, hearing and good at PS, which should not be hard since it is easy to do in this game.

I find a few slick ways to edguard meta that should work. Dealing with his tornado is done with. Kepping him out of the stage is what I am gonna test, and I have to test out my ideas to deal with his air moves. His up-B I got it doen already. TThats not a problem to me anymore.

I been working hard on this each nite that I can't train with NinjaLink. I all been talking with him about all this stuff as well as Edreese. The way things are going (which Peach's hard match ups so far) Peachis B tier material. She could be in the middle of it, blwoing out some characters people think she would never do. I had to check out some of excel videos and even his combo vid to get some insight on what she can do. The edge is Peach's playground.

The problem is that no one has been abusing the stuff like excel has. Or have a better turnip game then him. I'm gonna start to. And I'm gonna abuse all this ledge stuff. I been doing some math with metas air attacks. His Fair and Dair I am saying ways to deal/beat it. I'm gonna be sitting with NL to test this stuff out. My next tourny is next week, all this stuff I am gonna have studied and pull off at the tourny. I should be able to place in the money if I play my cards right. Until then I'm gonna continue to study.

 

[Metro Knight]

GnW isn't that scary. He just takes some getting used to.

 

[<π]

GaW is crazy good on paper but his kills get kinda hard to land his aerails become easy to avois and punish or even out right beat in the right situations.
He is a good character but... a lot of the stuff that got him as high as he was has been kinda of seen through, main things being bair and nair I'd guess.

 

[Justblaze647]

Awesomeness

I love stuff like this. This is what makes this game epic. When people say: I didn't do so good this time, so I'm going to train and study and better myself.

You will do better next time, Dark.Pch

 

[Dark.Pch]

I hope so. I may have been one of the best back then but I held myself back not doing all this frame/hitbox/etc stuff I'm doing now. If I would have done this, maybe I would have placed within the money alot a while ago.

When I was saying peach vs snake is even (but have to prove it) I was really not doing any of this stuff. Now that I have it's started to feel that way more. There was some stuff in the match up that I could not figure out for me to say for sure it was even. Now I can do it. But for now I just say he has a small advantage. His camping, peach can trul deal with it, and his camping helps her beat him done correctly. That seem to be the main problem in the match up and snake having a field day camping. Not anymore. But I am gonna spare with NinjaLink just to be 100% sure. the problem is killing snake (then again alot have trouble killing him.)

So the logic for this is something I learned from Jash. The hell with trying to kill him, he is not going anywhere. Just get as much damage as possible. The match can even take a while. Peach is good at racking damage. So I do that then get the hell away from him. I have to treat lucario with this since they like to roll alot and camp/spam. And I can't take him in the air too well. Then there is his broken range. I learned his hit boxes and frame data. So I had to play around with Peachs and compare videos. Same time use the sheild advantage numbers and all that.

 

[Clai]

from doing my homework, G&W match up is looking rather Funny. Peach can evade alot of his moves while dishing out hers. And SDI hurts him cause she can couter attack his Bair. His smash attacks cant tuoch me while I short hop my moves to Dairs outside of upsmash. I can Float as well. Peach s starting to look better than G&W in my eyes. But I can't confirm anything yet. And he is over powered so he wins in that field.

Marth, to beat him and deal with his spacing, air game, Peach has to counter it grounded. Had to check out his hitboxes and do some math. And I said this before. Times Dash attacks or PS dash attacks can **** down his Fair and Nair. I dont always have to use Bair or fair to do so. But those are good options. Better than the dash attack one since it is harder. These 2 things can be harder than the other to do than the other depending on where you are on the stage and distance/spacing. The fact that is is hard to do it and get at marth is why the match up goes to him. If it was not that hard, it would not be so bad. But she can take him. And edgeguarding marth is looking fun

Snake, from what I studied with him, Jabbing inbetween his Tilts/jab pressure screws him up. And outside of his uptilt. Peach has an evasion tactic to weave the tilts and Dair/bair him. His air moves, I have no touce but to leave alone onless he is over me and I just uptilt. Since there is no move when above Peach that beats it in this game. Which is why she ***** on platforms and had good pressure on it. equal or better to the rest. in general, you have to have good reaction time, hearing and good at PS, which should not be hard since it is easy to do in this game.

I find a few slick ways to edguard meta that should work. Dealing with his tornado is done with. Kepping him out of the stage is what I am gonna test, and I have to test out my ideas to deal with his air moves. His up-B I got it doen already. TThats not a problem to me anymore.

You truly are a wonder that people should look up to. There are far too many people that just skim the surface of a matchup and then simply give up on their character because the match-up appears to be too hard. Nobody bothers to take a look at the hard facts and attempt to find a way to pit your character's attributes against the opposing character's. I really honor and respect all the work you do for Peach and trying to prove that she's capable of winning on the national scale, and I hope that other people follow your example. Seriously, this needs to be said.

As I said before, we were only discussing it in the context that it's part of the ICs MUs in general. Nana can always be gimped meaning you're left with Sopo, and his value and MUs are relevant to IC's value and MUs as a whole, but should ultimately be rolled into said MUs and tier position instead of being on his/her own.

While I agree that we should look into SoPo's value and use that information to determine the value of the Ice Climbers as a whole, I think the overdrawn discussion about Sopo and Ganon is just an unnecessary jab at Ganondorf's predicament. No matter how favorably Sopo matches up with a certain character, having to fight as Sopo is an undesired outcome that should be avoided at all costs. While I'm not disregarding Sopo discussion, why attempt to develop strategies for Sopo when you can use that effort to prevent Nana from getting gimped in the first place? From what I've been hearing, the only matchups that Sopo actually does decent against are the matchups that IC's already destroy.

I prefer peach.

I prefer Ganondorf.

 

[Jupz]

Alright, well my friend explained to me over MSN how he thought toon link is an S tiered character. I already explained the flaws in his writing, but he didn't believe me and wanted me to post it here so you guys could see it. Please, correct him lol. He doesn't want to believe me.

TL:

lots of combos (keep in mind that combos are 2 or more hits, damage racking ftw?) and some that that you can't get out of.

2 projectiles + bombs (I don't think some of you quite understand how insane they are..... if i need to explain why they're so good then I can try)

Has a sword (dunno if you guys know, but in Melee and Brawl, having a sword simply meant any sword attacks had insane priority. Any of TL's attacks that use the sword are just stupidly good, because the oppoent will always get hit by it, Uair being the most noticeable one. Being able to ALWAYS hit your oppoent when 2 attacks touch at the same time is INSANELY good imo)

Good killing ability (I don't care what all the TL mains say, they're idiots)

Zair, its a ridiculously good move, only bad part about it being its not a kill move. Can latch onto ledge, therfor making TL one of the best edge hoggers in the game.

TL's recovery is insanely hard to gimp unless you're MK.

With good DI TL can live up to quite high %s

Good enough range on basically every attack.

What more do I have to say?

 

[da K.I.D.]

im getting really sick and tired or people bringing up comboes in this game like its important.

EVERY CHARACTER HAS COMBOS IN THIS GAME! JUST BECAUSE YOU CANT CHAIN SOMEBODY FROM ONE SIDE OF FINAL D TO THE OTHER AND BACK AND END IT WITH A KILL MOVE DOESNT MEAN THAT BRAWL DOESNT HAVE COMBOS IN IT.

TL having combos is a moot point because every character can combo. that might not have been his intention, but its been bothering me for quite a while now.

arrows for tink are a pretty lackluster projectile, theyre like slow moving lasers that have punishable lag, without the never-lose priority.

tinks sword is good for when hes fighting people with out swords or really long limbs. but hes small, has short arms, and the sword isnt all that long either, so his range and priority is usually only average.

tink has a lot of killing options but most of them are only average in strength, and can get hard to land at times.

tinks zair is the worst of the zair with hitboxes, it doesnt have nearly as much range, and doesnt do as much damage as the really good ones, tho it is an effective move.

i wouldnt call tink ungimpable, but his recovery is very good.

good DI is one of those things that also applies to every character. also a moot point.

basically all your friend described is a A/B tier character because hes stated that tink has a lot of good point and is either average or slightly above average in just about all areas, but thats not what makes an S tier character.

Every S- tier character has some kind of stupid, broken level characteristic in addition to being really good in all other aspects of the game.

mk has nado and shuttle loop.
snake has nades and tilts
falco has lasers and cgs.
diddy has nanners
wario has rediculous mobility, massive damage racking and fart.

tink doesnt have anything up to this level of stupid goodness. hes good at everything but hes not broken at anything, which is why hes in the tier he is.

also, seems like your friend has a mild case of over-hype-my-main-itis.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle can combo like it's Melee.

 

[cHeWe]

if im thinking of the right person he doesnt actually main TL, am i right jupz???? lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Squirtle can combo like it's Melee.

You wish. If 2-3 hits = Melee, then sure. But then Ike can combo like it's Melee as well. :D

 

[Palpi]

Jab combos don' count! Only metaknight combos like melee.

 

[Kewkky]

You wish. If 2-3 hits = Melee, then sure. But then Ike can combo like it's Melee as well. :D

Oh man, that was an awesome post. I chuckled for a good while.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic has a guaranteed combo anywhere from 0%-200%.

2 Hit Combos, at least, 6 hits at best. And it combos into a KO move. :D

 

[Dark.Pch]

Jab combos don' count! Only metaknight combos like melee.

That would be Peach. only character that seriously links to alot of stuff no matter how you DI

 

[DanGR]

You wish. If 2-3 hits = Melee, then sure. But then Ike can combo like it's Melee as well. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgiGicIUG-Y

 

[Steeler]

lol i love dangr

 

[Magik0722]

sure squirtle has some relativly large combos


too bad he is the worst character in the game

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Jab combos don' count! Only metaknight combos like melee.

(Nair ->) Jab -> Grab -> (Pummels ->) Bthrow -> Dash Attack

:D

By "combo like Melee", I don't consider Shiek's "Ftilt Ftilt Ftilt Ftilt" or Squirtle's "Utilt Utilt Utilt Utilt" to be Melee style combos. If those count, Ike's Combat Walking on Zelda and Ganondorf count. I'm also not considering Footstool combos because well, Melee didn't have footstooling. Go figure.

Oh man, that was an awesome post. I chuckled for a good while.

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week.

About the video: can I see some frame data on Squirtle's air attacks complete with their hitstun? I wanna see from a frame data point of view how dodgable that combo (or "combo") that was. As in: does the PT boards have that data? It's been a while since I checked and I'm too lazy to look it up. >_> <_<

 

[Magik0722]

all of that was true combos

 

[Browny]

How to be a top tier character. lets compare snake to TL.

Alright, well my friend explained to me over MSN how he thought toon link is an S tiered character. I already explained the flaws in his writing, but he didn't believe me and wanted me to post it here so you guys could see it. Please, correct him lol. He doesn't want to believe me.

TL:

lots of combos (keep in mind that combos are 2 or more hits, damage racking ftw?) and some that that you can't get out of.
Ftilt does 21% at all %'s, more than half of TL's combos. Nair does almost as much. also dthrow-anything can outdamage it, safely, on almost the entire cast.

2 projectiles + bombs (I don't think some of you quite understand how insane they are..... if i need to explain why they're so good then I can try)
6 projectiles, 4 of them amazingly effective and 2 have more KO power than all of TL's KO moves. 1-frame counters and incredible edgeguarding projectiles.

Has a sword (dunno if you guys know, but in Melee and Brawl, having a sword simply meant any sword attacks had insane priority. Any of TL's attacks that use the sword are just stupidly good, because the oppoent will always get hit by it, Uair being the most noticeable one. Being able to ALWAYS hit your oppoent when 2 attacks touch at the same time is INSANELY good imo)
Snake outranges nearly everyone on the ground, SAFELY, with extremely high damaging/knockback attacks. he doesnt have overriding priority on aerials, but clashing hits with his bair or uair will kill you

Good killing ability (I don't care what all the TL mains say, they're idiots)
Best killing ability, widest array of low % KO moves, shield break can KO at 0%. his JAB is of comparable KO power to TL's ko attacks.

Zair, its a ridiculously good move, only bad part about it being its not a kill move. Can latch onto ledge, therfor making TL one of the best edge hoggers in the game.
Grenades. Used to camp from long distance, destroy enemy projectiles. edgeguarding/ledgeguarding tool. 1 frame-counter to attacks. can force reactions which he can punish.

TL's recovery is insanely hard to gimp unless you're MK.
same for snake, but add DDD there

With good DI TL can live up to quite high %s
No he doesnt. on the other hand, snake lives to 200% on a regular basis.

Good enough range on basically every attack.
Good enough range to compete with who? does it match mk/snake/ddd/marth/dk? No, so hes going to have a lot more trouble dealing with those characters than snake does.

What more do I have to say?

 

[M@v]

Mk
Snake
Diddy
Falco/Icys(not sure which one will be higher)
Marth/DDD/Wario(not sure which ones will be higher)
GW
Pika

And so on.