The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[gm jack]

I don't see how Zelda beats ICs lol
That makes no sense. It can't be any more than 60/40 55/45 50/50 Marth and MK matchups hover around with ICs, IF those match-ups aren't even.

Marth and MK's tools to beat ICs > Zelda's.

so how does Marth and MK not beat ICs as well as Zelda?

Its also worth noting that pretty much none of the top brawl players play Zelda (except maybe NL) so how are you gonna find some mid-level player theory crafting saying that Zelda beats ICs?

Because Zelda can actually play defensive against them. Nana's lag means that Din's Fire can't just be power shielded constantly. In addition, her moves are ideal for breaking them up due to the multi hit moves, and the generally low cool down lag makes her hard to punish. A 4 frame Dsmash also help prevent the grab.

Also, her power aerials actually come in use, as she can punish any separation but killing Nana pretty easily.

Also, the IC say that Zelda beats them too. It isn't just the Zelda players saying it.

If you only consider the current top tier then maybe. But if you consider high tier then Sheik loses to ICs, Olimar, ROB, Pika, and Marth.

S/Z still has 40:60s against Marth, MK, Snake, and 65:35 against Oli (dunno if this i still accurate but last I checked both boards have it at 65:35). That is if you just take the best matchup of the two. How they work together is a lot more complicated.

Lose to IC, yeah, horrible. Down B, slight advantage.
None of the others are actually that bad, and some of the ratios are very outdated. IIRC, the Olimar boards say sheik actually has the (slight) advantage. The 40:60s are present, but that a lack of a proper counter is significantly more than even characters far above her have.

She doesn't have nearly as easy a time as the high/top tiers, but I think a lack of "a lol counterpick" situation that doesn't apply to nearly everyone (MK on Rainbow Cruise for example) should at least warrant a higher mid tier position.

 

[Tien2500]

There is no lol counterpick but rather a lot of 40:60s in the top and high tiers. So I'm not sure even if you combine Zelda and Sheik they should go any higher than C tier. Zelda really only helps against the ICs. I don't know what other matchups she's useful in. Dedede and ROB maybe but in all the Zelda rediscussions most of her matchups have been becoming worse.

 

[zeldspazz]

ROB, Pika, and IC are really the main three should would help with going solo. I like switching for kills, but Ive already said this too many times and Im not gonna argue with people again lol xD As long as she doesnt switch for MK, Olimar, or GaW, I honestly think it could be legit. Thats just me though.

 

[Tien2500]

Do any Sheik players actually switch for kills in tournament play? I've never actually seen it happen. If it did I'd be more inclined to believe its useful.

Snake and Marth should probably also be on the do not switch list.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hardly any people actually place well with Sheik period, so thats not even relevant lol. Which is why at this point in time I dont think Sheik or Z/S are much higher at all. They just dont show what people (like me) are saying they can do.

But yes, I know tourney players who switch. Not very many though, its a very underused tactic because people it makes people nervous to switch from a semi viable character to a nonviable character. Im not surprised.

 

[Flayl]

Fixed, Lucario's are higher (at least if you're looking at the character rankings list).

Also, from what I've seen from ROB, he's got some really good anti MUs that are really overshadowed by MK MU/gay stuff that can happen to him. He's got some really, really good tools, especially vs. other projectile oriented characters, and some really good edgeguarding capability that's both safe and effective. I think he might drop, but imo for me his tools are really, really good.

Lucarios are only getting more top 8s, but I'll concede.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Hardly any people actually place well with Sheik period, so thats not even relevant lol. Which is why at this point in time I dont think Sheik or Z/S are much higher at all. They just dont show what people (like me) are saying they can do.

But yes, I know tourney players who switch. Not very many though, its a very underused tactic because people it makes people nervous to switch from a semi viable character to a nonviable character. Im not surprised.

That's the thing, though. If every match automatically started everyone at 100%, Zelda would probably be high tier. She's much better at killing outright than Sheik is. Once Sheik has gotten her opponent up to a reasonable percent, Zelda only needs to land a sngle USmash/UTilt/DSmash/whatever else, and they're dead.

As for finding openings where you can safely Transform, DSmash and FSmash usually work at higher percents (which is when you'd be switching to Zelda anyway...)

 

[Tien2500]

From my personal experience most of the time switching to Zelda has done more harm than good. Whenever someone switches to Zelda I just go hyper campy. Zelda has a ton of useful KO moves but Sheik is better at forcing opponents into bad situations. Also if you switch you're likely giving up an edgeguarding oppurtunity.

Where I can see Zelda really being useful is if you get a gimp with Sheik or something and have a sizable lead, against characters who don't have anything they can do at long range. Then they have actually have to approach Zelda.

 

[DanGR]

I'd rather just stay as Sheik, a character which much better bases, and rack up 80% more damage SAFELY before I kill than switch to Zelda (an entirely different character to learn) and take 80% myself before I actually land the killing attack. Of course, it varies my matchup too. I may switch to Zelda against the ICs or something, where it's not entirely difficult to land a killing blow on either IC.

Another point I'd like to bring up is that I don't think Sheik players should be so focused on getting that kill move in. Instead just accept that Sheik, as a character, can't kill well unless she gets that early gimp, and to focus on simply racking up damage and not getting hit while doing so.

People forget that players will tend to shield more at higher percents if your throws don't kill. So why not grab more, and then throw them up for some juggle traps (potentially racking a lot of damage this way) instead of trying for that upsmash/dsmash/fsmash(lol) on their shield? It rarely works.

You're not going to be landing all those dsmashes you did at lower percents.

edit: That's just the way I see it, at least.

 

[Spelt]

air grab release is a kill setup for certain characters, including MK.
so yes, sheik can kill with grabs.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Hardly any people actually place well with Sheik period, so thats not even relevant lol. Which is why at this point in time I dont think Sheik or Z/S are much higher at all. They just dont show what people (like me) are saying they can do.

This is kinda what bugs me about the people talking about how good Sheik's matchups are or how Z/S is high tier or what have you. It seems to be practically 100% theorycraft.

 

[volume]

cant wait till this reaches 1000 pages XD

 

[-Mars-]

Do any Sheik players actually switch for kills in tournament play? I've never actually seen it happen. If it did I'd be more inclined to believe its useful.

Snake and Marth should probably also be on the do not switch list.

I switch in tournaments but it depends on my opponents playstyle.

 

[zeldspazz]

air grab release is a kill setup for certain characters, including MK.
so yes, sheik can kill with grabs.

Its only guaranteed on like 4 characters, MK and Lucas Im sure of off the top of my head.

@volume: I hope the next list comes out before this reaches 1000 pages >_>

@Mars: Im pretty sure Sniper and Scary switch too right?

 

[Chuee]

Its only guaranteed on like 4 characters, MK and Lucas Im sure of off the top of my head.

@volume: I hope the next list comes out before this reaches 1000 pages >_>

@Mars: Im pretty sure Sniper and Scary switch too right?

Wario and squirtle are the other two, I think.

 

[DMG]

You can SDI her Usmash and try to tech it. I've come close, but SDIing it down is really hard for some reason. I can SDI it half the distance of FD and almost touch the ground, but never touch the ground and be able to tech it.

On characters that she hits on a lower part of Usmash, it's very possible. Hard, but possible. Worst case scenario, you can also SDI her stronger hits into the weaker hits and then DI those well. That allows you to live quite a bit longer if done right.

 

[-Mars-]

@Mars: Im pretty sure Sniper and Scary switch too right?

Yea from what I assume I don't really talk to them on AIM so I dunno too much but I know <3 doesn't and Ankoku does from time to time. I've never seen of or heard of Light even touching Zelda lol.

 

[DMG]

Light doesn't go Zelda. Period. I've never ever ever EVER seen him use Zelda, even in Friendlies.

Shiek's inability to kill (safely/reliably) is not as big of a problem as you guys may think. Really what you guys should focus on is keeping other people away and just safely tacking on damage to them. Shiek is hard to approach safely for a lot of characters, even higher tiered characters, why bother putting yourself at risk with the lead when you can sit back, add damage, maybe let them make a mistake and you punish it instead of trying to force an opening?

 

[-Mars-]

Your preaching to the choir here lol. I don't start fsmashing all over the place at higher percents just cuz I feel the need to get a kill, I usually wait until a FH strong nair will kill or a spaced bair.

I don't think Sheik mains are making a big deal out of her KO ability......we've been dealing with this since the game came out.

 

[Zori]

im curious to see if olimar does not move again for the next list i think he should be lower

 

[zeldspazz]

Zeldas obviously feel more of a need to switch to Zelda than vise versa. I happen to switch between the two because Im far more comfortable with Zelda and I think its effective. Good Sheiks can work through the low kill power easily.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I usually stick w/ Zelda since I get lots of lighting kicks OoS.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I usually stick w/ Zelda since I get lots of lighting kicks OoS.

Your opponents are doing something wrong if zelda is forcing them to approach.

 

[zeldspazz]

Your opponents are doing something wrong if zelda is forcing them to approach.

He never said that. Zelda can be approaching and sheild an attack. Some people dont play gay enough too lol.

 

[Browny]

Metaknight, Snake
Diddy, Falco, Wario, IC
Marth, Dedede, G&W, Olimar, Pikachu
Rob, Lucario, ZSS, Kirby, Toon Link
DK, Peach, Wolf, Pit, Luigi, Fox
Sonic, PT, Shiek, Bowser, Ike
Ness, Mario, Lucas, Yoshi, Zelda
Jigglypuff, Link, Samus, Falcon, Ganondorf

Apparently new list soon? well let this be my final prediction before 4.0

 

[rathy Aro]

Do any Sheik players actually switch for kills in tournament play? I've never actually seen it happen. If it did I'd be more inclined to believe its useful.

Snake and Marth should probably also be on the do not switch list.

Ankoku switches in tourney.

I think most people that go solo sheik would switch if they need to unless they're specifically against it like Light, Cross (iirc), and some others are.

Also, zelda/sheik is not a new idea. It doesn't work that well. It can be punished a lot. Its helpful, but not nearly as helpful as that one guy said. I do believe sheik is like B-tier mostly because of her own abilities and partly because of zelda.

 

[DanGR]

My prediction:

Metaknight, Snake, Diddy, Falco
Wario, Marth, IC, Pikachu, Dedede, Olimar
Rob, G&W, ZSS, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach
(from here on, it doesn't really matter)
DK, Wolf, Kirby, Pit, Luigi
PT, Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Bowser, Ike
Ness, Mario, Lucas, Yoshi, Zelda
Falcon, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

 

[Albert.]

My prediction:

Metaknight, Snake, Diddy, Falco
Wario, Marth, IC, Pikachu, Dedede, Olimar
Rob, G&W, ZSS, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach
(from here on, it doesn't really matter)
DK, Wolf, Kirby, Pit, Luigi
PT, Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Bowser, Ike
Ness, Mario, Lucas, Yoshi, Zelda
Falcon, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

I really agree with this.

 

[stingers]

(from here on, it doesn't really matter)
DK

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256219

 

[Chuee]

Mine

Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Wario, Falco, Ice Climbers

Marth, Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Olimar, ROB, Lucario

Kirby, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Toon Link, Donkey Kong

Peach, Luigi, Wolf, Fox, Sheik, Sonic

Bowser, Pokémon Trainer, Mario, Ness, Lucas

Ike, Zelda, Yoshi, Samus

Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

 

[DanGR]

I really agree with this.

For the record, I don't.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256219

I haven't seen that before.

It doesn't really matter though. Those aren't my views on where I think the characters should be placed. It's just how I think the SBR will place them considering their past tendencies and such. ;P

I'll admit I don't know a ton about DK anyways. *shrugs*

 

[Browny]

For the record, I don't.

lol same with mine. I didn't say its my tier list, only what I predict 4.0 will be

 

[Albert.]

>_< well I meant that I agreed with the prediction of it. The prediction seems like what SBR will do.

Anyway, We all have our own little preference about which mid tier character shold be high tier and which low tier is really a middle or whatever, like on my own I'd have PT be higher.

BTW to whoever that was, A DK winning one tournament doesn't really matter that much... esp considering KSizzle threw Grand finals or something because Cable is his best friend. If you make me go dig up the posts I will. Note that KSizzle like 2-0d that same DK in winners bracket with MK

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

>_< well I meant that I agreed with the prediction of it. The prediction seems like what SBR will do.

Anyway, We all have our own little preference about which mid tier character shold be high tier and which low tier is really a middle or whatever, like on my own I'd have PT be higher.

BTW to whoever that was, A DK winning one tournament doesn't really matter that much... esp considering KSizzle threw Grand finals or something because Cable is his best friend. If you make me go dig up the posts I will. Note that KSizzle like 2-0d that same DK in winners bracket with MK

1st off DK is legit since the ddd inf is banned in so many places like NY.
2nd idk if Ksizzle throw the match or not but just b/c he might of said he did does not make it true. Plus cable is a real good player who has what it takes to win a tourney.
3rd (a follow up on 2): just b/c someone says they throw a match does not mean its true. i lost to Ally i could go around saying i let him win but that does not make it true. and if u want to use the whole its his friend thing fine i lost to Will in a tourney and even if i said i let him win that does not make it true.

4: DK's have won more then one tourney look at ook and Ripple, plus on the east coast both Cable and Will have been doing very well

5: Originally Posted by DanGR View Post
My prediction:

Metaknight, Snake, Diddy, Falco
Wario, Marth, IC, Pikachu, Dedede, Olimar
Rob, G&W, ZSS, Lucario, Toon Link, Peach
(from here on, it doesn't really matter)
DK, Wolf, Kirby, Pit, Luigi
PT, Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Bowser, Ike
Ness, Mario, Lucas, Yoshi, Zelda
Falcon, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

i think many below the line of does not really matter are legit enough to win. i would say at least down to right after Pit at least. i know there are people like Boss, and reflex who can win with even lower characters but i think at that point its more the player then the character so thats why i still at this moment would put that line above them but in the future i might change my thoughts on that.

 

[ksizl4life]

yeah your right. one tournament means hardly anything

i 2-0d cable in winners with mk. i got 0-3d by cable in grand when i went snake. i didnt feel like playing mk since hes boring trash and snakes my most fun character. yeah hes my best friend. so what? i tried my hardest with snake and i legitimately main snake as well.

Cable is a prodigy thats able to pick up any character from dk to zss to pika to ness and play at TOP level with them. he did this with dk and now hes taking out huge names with all dk.

 

[Justblaze647]

Cable is a prodigy thats able to pick up any character from dk to zss to pika to ness and play at TOP level with them.

Sounds like somebody I know... *cough cough NinjaLink*

 

[Suspect]

Sounds like somebody I know... *cough cough NinjaLink*

orly ?

 

[Justblaze647]

Yeah except I dont think I've ever seen him play Zamus

 

[ShadowLink84]

That is because...you were not there...

 

[Justblaze647]

Wow

What a stunning and astounding observation.

Did you come up with that all by youself? You're brain must ache from the strain...