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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
- Status
orange/xd
Smash Ace
I've been wondering this too.
Well, if its not coming out in a week and two days, I atleast hope its coming out soon. :D
Blackrider213
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2009
- Messages
- 180
Well, that thread got closed. Chances are it's not coming out in a week and two days. Just be patient. The SBR will unveil the list in due time.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
ICs
Marth
D3
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
ICs
Marth
D3
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
This has pretty much been standard on every single list ive seen in the last month, with only a little variation between spots 3-6. I dont know why everyone keeps posting just high tiers, the mid tiers are where the real debate is.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
You want a full tier list?
SS Tier:
1)Meta Knight
2)Snake
S Tier:
3)Diddy Kong
4)Wario
5)Falco
A Tier:
6)Marth
7)Ice Climbers
8)King Dedede
9)Pikachu
[Zelda/Sheik]
10)Mr. Game & Watch
11)Olimar
12)Zero Suit Samus
13)Kirby
B Tier:
14)Lucario
[Squirtle]
15)R.O.B.
16)Toon Link
17)Donkey Kong
18)Pit
19)Peach
C Tier:
20)Luigi
21)Fox
22)Wolf
23)Sonic
24)Sheik
D Tier:
[Charizard]
25)Ike
26)Bowser
27)Ness
28)Zelda
E Tier:
29)Pokemon Trainer
30)Mario
31)Yoshi
32)Lucas
[Ivysaur]
33)Samus
F Tier:
34)Jigglypuff
35)Link
36)Captain Falcon
G Tier:
37)Ganondorf
Debate my mid tiers then.
SS Tier:
1)Meta Knight
2)Snake
S Tier:
3)Diddy Kong
4)Wario
5)Falco
A Tier:
6)Marth
7)Ice Climbers
8)King Dedede
9)Pikachu
[Zelda/Sheik]
10)Mr. Game & Watch
11)Olimar
12)Zero Suit Samus
13)Kirby
B Tier:
14)Lucario
[Squirtle]
15)R.O.B.
16)Toon Link
17)Donkey Kong
18)Pit
19)Peach
C Tier:
20)Luigi
21)Fox
22)Wolf
23)Sonic
24)Sheik
D Tier:
[Charizard]
25)Ike
26)Bowser
27)Ness
28)Zelda
E Tier:
29)Pokemon Trainer
30)Mario
31)Yoshi
32)Lucas
[Ivysaur]
33)Samus
F Tier:
34)Jigglypuff
35)Link
36)Captain Falcon
G Tier:
37)Ganondorf
Debate my mid tiers then.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
zelda/shiek about gaw, olimar, and zss is just hilarious
as is rob in b tier.
as is rob in b tier.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Zelda/Sheik together cover each other's weaknesses and work well together. Thus, highly ranked. Besides, they don't matter, the duo isn't officially ranked.
ROB has been dropping in results, and other character's games have expanded more then his. Hence, he drops.
ROB has been dropping in results, and other character's games have expanded more then his. Hence, he drops.
Thats true, I agree. The high tiers are already well-defined, we know who's the best characters (and the worst) already. What every other player wants to know, is how the rest of the tier list should look like.
How can you drop ROB due to tournament rankings and then place Zelda/Sheik as high as you do when they have poor rankings even if you combine people playing Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik?
Even with Zelda, Sheik's ranking still aren't good enough for A tier. Aside from helping in the IC match there aren't too many times when Zelda does well in a matchup where Sheik doesn't.
Things get really screwy between Zelda/Sheik and ROB.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
exactly, he's just focused on one thing and then overranked them because of it.
ROB is still a really solid char. Nothing amazing has changed in Wario's game since Version but you still put him at 4th, only dropping him 1 spot. But apparently ROB's just gotten so much worse that now Kirby is above him? @.@
ROB is still a really solid char. Nothing amazing has changed in Wario's game since Version but you still put him at 4th, only dropping him 1 spot. But apparently ROB's just gotten so much worse that now Kirby is above him? @.@
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
stingers
Smash Obsessed
compare the tourney results of both characters, ROB actually does better then Kirby. Nothing major has changed in Kirby or ROBs metagames (I mean I sure as hell play ROB a lot differently then I did back when this list first came out, but I'll assume the Kirbies do too...)
so why does Kirby all of the sudden go above ROB? @.@
so why does Kirby all of the sudden go above ROB? @.@
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
^Forward b^
bair
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Zelda and sheik put together isnt even as good as squirtle as a stand alone character would be.
i think if you could play with both of them on the field at one time against your opponent, they STILL wouldnt be as good as squirtle is
i think if you could play with both of them on the field at one time against your opponent, they STILL wouldnt be as good as squirtle is
gm jack
Smash Lord
Sheik alone has the best (current) top tier matchups outside of top tier itself. Only one slight advantage, but nothing worse than a 40:60. IC are probably going up there, but Zelda has a slight advantage on them. DDD can be a problem, so Zelda also has a positive matchup there.
S/Z has nothing worse than a slight disadvantage when you simply select the correct character at the start. Not one matchup requiring serious outplaying of the opponent is far more than a lot of people above them have. Then again, outside of Armada, very few have been placing well. So I can't see S/Z placing A tier, but B tier seems about right.
Outside of Sheik getting gayed by a IC, she tend to always have tools to deal with opponents just on sheer speed of her moves. Her killing problems are pretty hard to find nowadays. Compared to Squirtle, the only thing I think I can see Sheik having on her is a decent projectiles. A fast 18% impossible to power shield projectile is invaluable.
S/Z has nothing worse than a slight disadvantage when you simply select the correct character at the start. Not one matchup requiring serious outplaying of the opponent is far more than a lot of people above them have. Then again, outside of Armada, very few have been placing well. So I can't see S/Z placing A tier, but B tier seems about right.
Outside of Sheik getting gayed by a IC, she tend to always have tools to deal with opponents just on sheer speed of her moves. Her killing problems are pretty hard to find nowadays. Compared to Squirtle, the only thing I think I can see Sheik having on her is a decent projectiles. A fast 18% impossible to power shield projectile is invaluable.
For all of you wondering about the guy's list...
Kirby didn't go up, ROB went down. There's a difference between a character rising because he's gotten better than the ones he's just passed, and a character rising because a character above him wasn't as good as people thought so he was dropped.
Remember this and may your turkeys rise against you all.
Kirby didn't go up, ROB went down. There's a difference between a character rising because he's gotten better than the ones he's just passed, and a character rising because a character above him wasn't as good as people thought so he was dropped.
Remember this and may your turkeys rise against you all.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Let's see, now that I have a bit more time to post things longer then a few sentences:
1) Basically nobody uses a true Zelda/Sheik combo and actually goes to tournaments. It's mostly solo Sheik bringing in those points. I don't have much to decide a placement on, and frankly it doesn't matter. It's theoretical, like the solo pokemons from PT. The ones in []s are given the least amount of thought because they will never be actually placed in a tier list. >_> I based the position on mainly other people's theorycrafting from a while ago when I made the first list I began keeping track of. Theorycrafting about actually using Zelda correctly in the dual: for KOing, even if she's worse over all in the MU. A fresh Zelda can KO easily, and it forces the opponent to switch playing styles to some extent. It's not like PT where you go in expecting three different characters, and have an idea of about how much time each character will be out. Zelda/Sheik combo can change it up a lot more.
2) Wario has no reason to drop farther then 4th. He's still good, Diddy Kong's game has improved more, but Falco's haven't. Why should I arbitrarily place Wario lower?
3) I've always felt ROB was overrated. He's just...not A tier material. He has too big of blindspots in the air, too much of a warning on his laser beam when he's about to fire, little to nothing in the way of setting up KOs, and lacking too much in KOing options. He has an good Gyro game, great recovery distance, and good edgeguarding options along with slightly above average range...but he's just not A tier material. Throw in the overall dropping results, and I see no reason for him to be there.
4) Kirby on the other hand, I feel is barely A tier material. He could be top of B tier easily, and it wouldn't take much for Lucario to move above him (Kirby's tournament results dropping more, Lucario's rising back up, either one would do it). However, he does have a good combing ability out of his throws, a good edgeguarding game (I'd rate it slightly above ROB's), good recovery distance, and slightly better KOing options then ROB, as well as an easier time getting around spam thanks to how low he ducks. He does on the other hand, suffer from over all less range, and a lighter weight. To me, it simply adds up to him being slightly higher.
EDIT:
5) Lucas sucks. His moves are over all more situational then Ness's (as thats who he's compared to most), and his better ground game doesn't beat out Ness's better airgame. He has the better recovery, Down B, and PK fire, but those are the only two moves I can think of off of the top of my head where Lucas's is always better then Ness's. Ness on the other hand always has the better Uair (Better KOing trajectory = sooner KOs), Bair, Dair, Fair, Usmash, Bthrow, and Neutral B (KOing > Freezing and sending them out of range).
1) Basically nobody uses a true Zelda/Sheik combo and actually goes to tournaments. It's mostly solo Sheik bringing in those points. I don't have much to decide a placement on, and frankly it doesn't matter. It's theoretical, like the solo pokemons from PT. The ones in []s are given the least amount of thought because they will never be actually placed in a tier list. >_> I based the position on mainly other people's theorycrafting from a while ago when I made the first list I began keeping track of. Theorycrafting about actually using Zelda correctly in the dual: for KOing, even if she's worse over all in the MU. A fresh Zelda can KO easily, and it forces the opponent to switch playing styles to some extent. It's not like PT where you go in expecting three different characters, and have an idea of about how much time each character will be out. Zelda/Sheik combo can change it up a lot more.
2) Wario has no reason to drop farther then 4th. He's still good, Diddy Kong's game has improved more, but Falco's haven't. Why should I arbitrarily place Wario lower?
3) I've always felt ROB was overrated. He's just...not A tier material. He has too big of blindspots in the air, too much of a warning on his laser beam when he's about to fire, little to nothing in the way of setting up KOs, and lacking too much in KOing options. He has an good Gyro game, great recovery distance, and good edgeguarding options along with slightly above average range...but he's just not A tier material. Throw in the overall dropping results, and I see no reason for him to be there.
4) Kirby on the other hand, I feel is barely A tier material. He could be top of B tier easily, and it wouldn't take much for Lucario to move above him (Kirby's tournament results dropping more, Lucario's rising back up, either one would do it). However, he does have a good combing ability out of his throws, a good edgeguarding game (I'd rate it slightly above ROB's), good recovery distance, and slightly better KOing options then ROB, as well as an easier time getting around spam thanks to how low he ducks. He does on the other hand, suffer from over all less range, and a lighter weight. To me, it simply adds up to him being slightly higher.
EDIT:
5) Lucas sucks. His moves are over all more situational then Ness's (as thats who he's compared to most), and his better ground game doesn't beat out Ness's better airgame. He has the better recovery, Down B, and PK fire, but those are the only two moves I can think of off of the top of my head where Lucas's is always better then Ness's. Ness on the other hand always has the better Uair (Better KOing trajectory = sooner KOs), Bair, Dair, Fair, Usmash, Bthrow, and Neutral B (KOing > Freezing and sending them out of range).
Albert.
Smash Master
I don't see how Zelda beats ICs lol
That makes no sense. It can't be any more than 60/40 55/45 50/50 Marth and MK matchups hover around with ICs, IF those match-ups aren't even.
Marth and MK's tools to beat ICs > Zelda's.
so how does Marth and MK not beat ICs as well as Zelda?
Its also worth noting that pretty much none of the top brawl players play Zelda (except maybe NL) so how are you gonna find some mid-level player theory crafting saying that Zelda beats ICs?
That makes no sense. It can't be any more than 60/40 55/45 50/50 Marth and MK matchups hover around with ICs, IF those match-ups aren't even.
Marth and MK's tools to beat ICs > Zelda's.
so how does Marth and MK not beat ICs as well as Zelda?
Its also worth noting that pretty much none of the top brawl players play Zelda (except maybe NL) so how are you gonna find some mid-level player theory crafting saying that Zelda beats ICs?
If you only consider the current top tier then maybe. But if you consider high tier then Sheik loses to ICs, Olimar, ROB, Pika, and Marth.
S/Z still has 40:60s against Marth, MK, Snake, and 65:35 against Oli (dunno if this i still accurate but last I checked both boards have it at 65:35). That is if you just take the best matchup of the two. How they work together is a lot more complicated.
lol this is soooo wrong.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
GJ listing all of ROBs worst qualities and Kirbys best ones.
ROB has great range, powerful attacks, fast ground game, great throws, 2 amazing projectiles, best recovery in the game, aerials that can KO, and is the best non-MK edgeguarder in the game.
Kirby has bad range, subpar recovery (no auto sweetspot in Brawl = o.o), only one reliable kill move which is easy to dodge, and is one of the lightest characters in the game.
Oh boy who's higher tier now
ROB has great range, powerful attacks, fast ground game, great throws, 2 amazing projectiles, best recovery in the game, aerials that can KO, and is the best non-MK edgeguarder in the game.
Kirby has bad range, subpar recovery (no auto sweetspot in Brawl = o.o), only one reliable kill move which is easy to dodge, and is one of the lightest characters in the game.
Oh boy who's higher tier now
Remember that tourney results don't make a character better or worse. I mean, come on, G&W has to be a prime example of this. Look at the tourney results thread: G&W used to be some crazy good character that was hard to get by, and he got some very good tourney results. Now, he's around middle of B tier whenever the tallying of tourney results come around. Does this mean G&W was essentially better than everyone behind him before, that the people who repped him gave up on him and thus his results dropped, or that people started playing better against him?
There could be a number of reasons behind why a character does good in tourneys, and why a character doesn't. That's why tier lists aren't copies of tourney results, because of the factors behind a character's representation... Like, for example, Compare the bottom of the tourney results thread, with the bottom of the SBR Tierlist v3.0... Look at that difference!
I don't even know what to say to this statement full of crazy lies and crazIER lies. The only truth there is kirby being one of the lightest in the game.
There could be a number of reasons behind why a character does good in tourneys, and why a character doesn't. That's why tier lists aren't copies of tourney results, because of the factors behind a character's representation... Like, for example, Compare the bottom of the tourney results thread, with the bottom of the SBR Tierlist v3.0... Look at that difference!
What? What is this I don't even
I don't even know what to say to this statement full of crazy lies and crazIER lies. The only truth there is kirby being one of the lightest in the game.
I wouldn't really say ROB's recovery is the best in the game since he can't airdodge but it's definitely one of the best. Same with his edgeguard. There are other characters with insane edgeguard abilities like Mario.
I agree that he's better than kirby though.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol i was purposefully exaggerating...
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Fixed, Lucario's are higher (at least if you're looking at the character rankings list).
Also, from what I've seen from ROB, he's got some really good anti MUs that are really overshadowed by MK MU/gay stuff that can happen to him. He's got some really, really good tools, especially vs. other projectile oriented characters, and some really good edgeguarding capability that's both safe and effective. I think he might drop, but imo for me his tools are really, really good.
Albert.
Smash Master
I agree with most of this and would like to note that the best ROBs (def not OS) are REALLY FAST. ROB is NOT slow.
EDIT I agree except for kirby bashing.
in fact I just wanted to say ROB is fast loll
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
ROB is a really good character, it's just that he has really bad disadvantages to make him balanced for his stupidly good range/speed/weight/recovery combination. IMO top of B tier, as in Lucario and ZSS belong above him.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
It's because I deal w/ top tiers a lot more than mids and lows. There are a few characters that I don't know enough about so making a full tier list would probably have everything in high and mid tier wrong (even if opinionated).
Low Tier:
Ike
Zelda
Mario
Ness
Lucas
Yoshi
Samus
Link
C.Falcon
Jiggs
Ganon
Yet a lot of people argue that the low tier placings don't matter since all these characters contribute little to the metagame (wrong btw). Let me know if I'm missing someone.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Low tier placings only make a difference in a low tier tourney...
Your missing Bowser, and Zelda too high.It's because I deal w/ top tiers a lot more than mids and lows. There are a few characters that I don't know enough about so making a full tier list would probably have everything in high and mid tier wrong (even if opinionated).
Low Tier:
Ike
Zelda
Mario
Ness
Lucas
Yoshi
Samus
Link
C.Falcon
Jiggs
Ganon
Yet a lot of people argue that the low tier placings don't matter since all these characters contribute little to the metagame (wrong btw). Let me know if I'm missing someone.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Not really. Go to a large tournament and you'll meet plenty of people who rep the low tier people. They will have plenty of match-up experience against those higher up on the tier list. Because of this they have a place in tournaments. They help sort out those whose lack match-up experience against certain characters in the cast. The good players who place high and use high tiers will have the knowledge to combat the all the characters on the cast (at least most of them).
Kinzer
Mammy
Or he could've just put Bowser as a Mid-Tier character. I wouldn't be too surprised.
Gindler
Smash Champion
- Status