• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

Status
Not open for further replies.
Blad01

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Could somebody explain me why is Samus so low ? Seriously, I understand every single character placement in this tier list but Samus...

Don't compare her to the Melee version, but actually tell me why she's down here...
 
PsychoIncarnate

PsychoIncarnate

The Eternal Will of the Swarm
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
50,642
Location
Char
NNID
PsychoIncarnate
3DS FC
4554-0155-5885
Blad01 said:
Could somebody explain me why is Samus so low ? Seriously, I understand every single character placement in this tier list but Samus...

Don't compare her to the Melee version, but actually tell me why she's down here...
Click to expand...
She's all around a lot weaker compared to the other characters than she was in melee, therefore, she's a lot lower tier.

I played Samus in Melee and I can't stand her in Brawl. Weak projectiles, her attacks aren't as useful.

She's just bad, and I was disappointed.
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
Samus is not really good... low range and priority on her hand-to-hand attacks, not very useful projectiles... If it wasn't for her good recovery and decent offstage game, I'd even say she'd drop further.
 
Blad01

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Well, I'll have to show you how Gemini plays :p

(Also, Zelda is a little bit lower than what I think she deserves, but he.... Tournament results come into play)
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
Uhm. You know. Even if there is one extremely skilled Samus main out there, it still won't matter on her tier list position.
The tier list gives information on the potential of a character, not individual people being good with them.

Just because MK leads the list it doesn't mean he wins every match against all characters below him. A good Falcon can beat crap out of a worse MK. <_<"
 
But-itzah-me!

But-itzah-me!

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
18
Location
Fargo, ND
Spadefox said:
Uhm. You know. Even if there is one extremely skilled Samus main out there, it still won't matter on her tier list position.
The tier list gives information on the potential of a character, not individual people being good with them.

Just because MK leads the list it doesn't mean he wins every match against all characters below him. A good Falcon can beat crap out of a worse MK. <_<"
Click to expand...

This seems a bit more obvious than common sense. However, you are overlooking the fact that in tourny's, most players are relatively playing on the same skill level. This is especially true as the tournament progresses. I have noticed as well that in any given 1 on 1, the better player will often times 'play down' to the level of his opponent. It could be a matter of the certain 'I have to try now' trigger not being tripped, or it could just be the way people are. This is why the final battle in a tourny is always incredibly epic.


Furthermore, I won't look at any tier list seriously until the highest rated SSBB players from across the nation converge, have a tourny, and then make a tier list based on those results. Otherwise, there are too many variables.

Until this happens, I will consider the 'official tier list' as nothing more than a list of characters who are in order from easiest (MK) to hardest (C. Falcon) to play successfully.
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
Of course.

But tourney results alone don't make a tier list. If you have an EXTREMELY skilled player who beats everyone with Falcon, that doesn't make Falcon by any means a better character. That player is just that good with him.

Not to mention that the performance of players can alter from their environment, how they feel, etc.
If M2K horribly loses on a tournament, he's not a worse player and MK is not a worse character.
If I had the luck and placed with Bowser against M2K, that doesn't make Bowser any better, I just was lucky enough to have hit M2K on a bad day.

Just putting that as an example.
 
But-itzah-me!

But-itzah-me!

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
18
Location
Fargo, ND
Spadefox said:
Of course.

But tourney results alone don't make a tier list. If you have an EXTREMELY skilled player who beats everyone with Falcon, that doesn't make Falcon by any means a better character. That player is just that good with him.

Not to mention that the performance of players can alter from their environment, how they feel, etc.
If M2K horribly loses on a tournament, he's not a worse player and MK is not a worse character.
If I had the luck and placed with Bowser against M2K, that doesn't make Bowser any better, I just was lucky enough to have hit M2K on a bad day.

Just putting that as an example.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.




But I am still not entirely convinced that the methods used to create the tier list are legit. There will always be other ways to go about doing anything, but as I understand the current tier list uses results from past tournaments as well as projected potential.

Just isn't enough for me...And it never will be until Mario winds up in the SSS tier!

Just kidding.

But seriously...
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
My only main problem with that list is that it was decided democratically by people placing votes on characters they aren't knowledgeable in.

There are several nitpickings such as MK having his own tier, and Zelda/Sheik having not an own spot, but that tier list pretty much shows how the current metagame stands.

It still is evolving, with new techniques being discovered for characters and new tactics evolving for several matchups.
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
lol PKNintendo. <3

Sorry, I don't know much about Lucas (and Ness) for that matter. :B

If you spotted a flaw in my arguments against Samus, though, feel free to correct me, I'm always open for information. ;P
 
Blad01

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
Spadefox said:
Uhm. You know. Even if there is one extremely skilled Samus main out there, it still won't matter on her tier list position.
The tier list gives information on the potential of a character, not individual people being good with them.

Just because MK leads the list it doesn't mean he wins every match against all characters below him. A good Falcon can beat crap out of a worse MK. <_<"
Click to expand...
I know, I'm just saying that while you have good MK, Snake, Falco (obvisouly) in tournaments, you have very few Samus, and even fewer good Samus in tournaments, in USA I mean.

Also, considering that the skill of a player doesn't matter in a tier list is dumb, since tournament results are taken into account. If nobody plays a character to its best potential and places high in tournaments, how would you know that the character is better than it could seem in theory ?
 
The Real Inferno

The Real Inferno

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
5,506
Location
Wichita, KS
Blad01 said:
I know, I'm just saying that while you have good MK, Snake, Falco (obvisouly) in tournaments, you have very few Samus, and even fewer good Samus in tournaments, in USA I mean.

Also, considering that the skill of a player doesn't matter in a tier list is dumb, since tournament results are taken into account. If nobody plays a character to its best potential and places high in tournaments, how would you know that the character is better than it could seem in theory ?
Click to expand...

You're missing the obvious answer. If nobody is playing the character to it's full potential then it doesn't matter what it's full potential is, because nobody is playig it. Essentially that makes the character bottom tier in and of itself because it doesn't even have a metagame in that case.
 
Blad01

Blad01

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
Paris, France
InfernoRage1 said:
You're missing the obvious answer. If nobody is playing the character to it's full potential then it doesn't matter what it's full potential is, because nobody is playig it. Essentially that makes the character bottom tier in and of itself because it doesn't even have a metagame in that case.
Click to expand...
You're right, but that's precisely what I mean. Potentially speaking, I think Samus deserves an higher spot (and Gemini shows it well, beyond the fact that he's himself a very good player); but when it comes to metagame and tournaments placing, she's indeed low, at least in the US...
(Obviously, she's not top, but imo she deserves low middle).

That's here that we can see the limits of the tier list, or at list of it's criteria...

Morality: play Samus more, US players :p
 
Red Arremer

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
Okay, so, the following...

The tournament placings are taken into account, but not to such an immense amount that it would matter that much.
If players regularly place with Samus, that would, at max, give her 2 or 3 spots higher. Problem is, though, due to the fact that Samus isn't as good as MK or Snake, and doesn't have as many players placing with her like with them, in the end, it wouldn't matter that much.

What I want to say: You can be the very best player in the world placing regularly first with Samus in all kinds of tournaments... it wouldn't make her a better character.
 
D

Digimonkey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
281
Location
Georgia
Oh well, I don't really care where my main is. It's all about who can use their character to their full ability.
 
Xebenkeck

Xebenkeck

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
1,636
Location
My Head
Spadefox said:
Okay, so, the following...

The tournament placings are taken into account, but not to such an immense amount that it would matter that much.
If players regularly place with Samus, that would, at max, give her 2 or 3 spots higher. Problem is, though, due to the fact that Samus isn't as good as MK or Snake, and doesn't have as many players placing with her like with them, in the end, it wouldn't matter that much.

What I want to say: You can be the very best player in the world placing regularly first with Samus in all kinds of tournaments... it wouldn't make her a better character.
Click to expand...
A tier list contains usually three varibles, tournament viability, match-ups, and character strenghths and weaknesses. Spadefox hit it right on the the head here with the tournament vialbility part. If Samus truly did have one of the best players playing with her and winning with her, she would see a rise on the tier list, but it wouldn't be a substantial change, because the other two parts that go into a tier list are uneffected by tournament placings. Match-ups weigh a lot more heavily on a characters placement, they can make and break characters. Ness, near the beggining of the game was considered high, high mid tier material, however the match-up against marth and charizard(charizard death-grab, and marth who simply ***** him) really crippled him as a viable character. Same goes for characters like DK, Luigi, and Mario. They have a horendous match-up against DDD, and as a result it shows on the tier list. Without the infinate, i'd bet DK would go up 2 or 3 places.
Lastly the part that also weighs alot is strenghts and weaknesses. Going back to Ness, it was found early that almost every character has an attack out of grab release on him, which is a major weakness/flaw, once again his placement on the tier list reflects that. Where top tier charactrers like snake and Mk have massive strenghts such as (MK) autocanceling aerials, multiple jumps, priority. (Snake) mindgames a plenty, strong attacks, disjointed hitboxes. Their strengths heavily outweigh their weaknesses making them high on the tier list. Ness however, his weaknesses are glaring and outweigh his strengths thus he is low tier.

That is why tournament results won't have full bearings on a tier list.
 
H

hizzlum

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
451
Location
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8FaV6oizNnQ
The list is preety accurate of the metagame IMO in # placemnt of characters, but the whole letter grading thing is a generic way of making a fighter game tier list and i believe some "letter: groups need to be merged

Its preety obvious who the top 3 best characters are in this game, MK snake and falco in that order is truly unargueable with any intelligent tourney going smasher. People can argue that DDD is close for 3rd of G&W should be higher, butthe tournament scene seems to be leading to a point where falco is now a truly mainstream character along the lines of a character like snake, and not yet as much as MK.

And also, why not postpone the next tier list to after genesis in july? it only makes sense as it will be the biggest mash tournament in the history of smash with people from all of the US going, so the results of that could esentially compile all the skill in the US in one tournament. The SBR did the same thing by posting the first brawl tier right after AXis, the biggest smash tourney to date, so why not do it with genesis?
 
Vorguen

Vorguen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
2,168
Location
Vorgy = RGV = Brownsville, Texas
Spadefox said:
Okay, so, the following...

The tournament placings are taken into account, but not to such an immense amount that it would matter that much.
If players regularly place with Samus, that would, at max, give her 2 or 3 spots higher. Problem is, though, due to the fact that Samus isn't as good as MK or Snake, and doesn't have as many players placing with her like with them, in the end, it wouldn't matter that much.

What I want to say: You can be the very best player in the world placing regularly first with Samus in all kinds of tournaments... it wouldn't make her a better character.
Click to expand...
Spadefox is a better character. I would pick him.
 
Sir Bedevere

Sir Bedevere

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
1,476
Location
doop doop
sMexy-Blu said:
I lol'd at how Sonic has ALOT of AT's but he still sucks lolololol
Click to expand...
Not really lol. I agree with you on the latter statement, though.

Spinshot is probably his biggest and most talked of AT (though some people have said that it can be pretty punished and advise to not use it).

Side-b and ASC shield canceling aren't really ATs, but I could see where someone was coming from if they gave a good enough argument to it.

There's also iSDR, but that's extremely situational and I really don't see much use in it lol.

Other than those, and the obvious universal ATs like stutter-stepping and jab locks (as well as some character specific stuff like a grab release chaingrab on Ness) Sonic doesn't really have that many ATs lol. 3, possibly 4 techs, one of which is being questioned in its usage and another that you'd be lucky to use or even make use of once in a tournament set.

Clearly, Sonic has more ATs than Melee.

It's really weird how everyone thinks Sonic has so much of something when he often barely has any (read: tournament mains). It's like Sonic's become sort of Pokemon, and is using Double Team to fool everyone into thinking there's thousands of him.

Sonic used Double Team!


Commander Blitzkrieg said:
And without said ATs, he would probably be worse than Falcon.
Click to expand...
Don't worry, Sonic will be below Falcon regardless of ATs; once people realize to counterpick Dtilt on him, Sonic will stand no chance.

Also, I thought everyone was bored of Sonic talk lol.
 
PKNintendo

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
Vorguen said:
Recent advancements in Spadefox's metagame show how he can wavedash and L-cancel. It jumped to 99-1 for Spadefox vs Meta Knight. The 1 is just there out of respect.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, the a shocking discovery has been made. Spadefox (like Wario and Ness) has an abusable grab release animation. Both ground and air release.

Poor Spadefox :(
 
TheBuzzSaw

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
ATs are irrelevant compared to how often a character can win.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom