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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

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SmashChu

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Spadefox said:
Okay, so, the following...

The tournament placings are taken into account, but not to such an immense amount that it would matter that much.
If players regularly place with Samus, that would, at max, give her 2 or 3 spots higher. Problem is, though, due to the fact that Samus isn't as good as MK or Snake, and doesn't have as many players placing with her like with them, in the end, it wouldn't matter that much.

What I want to say: You can be the very best player in the world placing regularly first with Samus in all kinds of tournaments... it wouldn't make her a better character.
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Problem is it doesn't work logically, or at least within the realm of what a tier list is.

If the best playing in the world uses Samus and wins with Samus, it means that he/she is doing something right with the character. If someone is winning tournaments left and right with a characters that is considered bad then something has been overlooked. Said player would be using techniques and strategies with the character to allow him/her to be victorious, meaning the character would be high enough to allow him/her to win. If characters are a limiting factor, and someone is winning, then the character is better then expected. It just can not work where the character is bad, but the player is winning everything with that character.

The two have to go hand in hand. If something like that happens, then the tier list is wrong.
 
Red Arremer

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Nuh huh.

It can be that the players facing against that character just don't know what the character can do against them (not knowing the matchup) and have a bad day.

If noone else is as good as that person with that character because that player is reading and mindgaming his opponent good enough (which is what most LT characters have to rely on), then the character can be bad, but the player has a good enough style and fitting knowledge about his enemy's character to beat out good players with the bad character.

By the way, I thought you were absolutely despising competitive gameplay and only casually play the game...? What'cha doing in here then? O.o
 
Sir Bedevere

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sMexy-Blu said:
Sonic, Link, Lucas and Falco... all of those have ALOT of AT's...
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Keep clinging to that. ;D

Seriously, if it came down to a matter of opinions, Spinshot is the only (tourney useful) AT I would list for Sonic. Only because I don't really think shield cancels are ATs lol.

Buzz said:
ATs are irrelevant compared to how often a character can win.
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Adequately summed up what I was trying to get at, lol. I just like making giant walls of text. XD

Kinzer said:
I love you and we should get together for a Steak dinner and make some hedgehoglings sometime after.
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...And then, we could cook the hedgehoglings and have Steak dinner from our babies! It's an endless cycle! :eek:
 
Red Arremer

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Yes I am.

If I play darn good due to me being able to read my opponent's movements and predict him respectively mindgame him into something - and do so by using a bad character for doing so, it still doesn't mean that this character is good.

Of course I wouldn't pick a bad character if I was good to begin with. I'd of course play as MK or Snake or so, to evolve my skill into the best environment.
 
SmashChu

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Spadefox said:
Nuh huh.

It can be that the players facing against that character just don't know what the character can do against them (not knowing the matchup) and have a bad day.

If noone else is as good as that person with that character because that player is reading and mindgaming his opponent good enough (which is what most LT characters have to rely on), then the character can be bad, but the player has a good enough style and fitting knowledge about his enemy's character to beat out good players with the bad character.
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The problem is the assumption is that the player is good and wins a lot. Bad day and mindgames can't account for wins over the long term. If the player is as good as we say, then there must be a reason why he is winning with said character.

The bolded part is what is most important. If the character is bad, then how is the player taking advantage of said character. If you are using a low tier character (by the ideas of a tier list) then there is very little that can be done.

Tier list have to look at tournament results. If your idea and the tournament results point two different ways (which is what is happening in this scenario), then use tournament results. Numbers can not lie.

By the way, I thought you were absolutely despising competitive gameplay and only casually play the game...? What'cha doing in here then? O.o
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Bored. I've been here for a while, so I poke around every so often to see what the topic of the day is.
 
Red Arremer

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If Mew2King would pick up, let's stay with Samus, and place with her because he - as a player - is just too darn good, it wouldn't make Samus a better character. It would just be an insanely skilled player using a bad character.
Or take it the other way around: I could make several tournaments with 50 people not knowing crap about Smash and one more skilled Samus player. Of course the Samus player would win and constantly place first against those worse players, because that player is just better - that would be false information on the Tournament Placing thread, at the end.

That's basically what I want to say:
Tournament results and players DO count - it would be silly to ignore them -, but are not as much as other factors like character potential and matchups. If there are outrageous outcomes like when NinjaLink beat M2K with Diddy, then those things are taken especially into account.

Right now, Samus' metagame is just as bad as the tierlist shows, and unless some outrageous AT is discovered I don't see any reason for her to go up, just because there's one decent player with her.
 
TheBuzzSaw

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There is a correlation between a character's advanced tactics and winning. Generally, more advanced tactics means more options, which means more ways to handle situations, which means more ways to win. However, sheer speed/priority/power trumps tactics.
 
Browny

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Unless said tactics involve stalling, which can be an advanced tactic in the form of IDC, homing stalling :p
 
M.K

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In Brawl, it seems like universal AT's are exceedingly more important than character-specific AT's. In fact, most characters slightly alter a universal technique in order to suit there character (DACUS is manipulated into Mortar Slide for Snake, Hydroplane for Squirtle, etc.)
 
Tenki

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Sir Bedevere said:
Seriously, if it came down to a matter of opinions, Spinshot is the only (tourney useful) AT I would list for Sonic. Only because I don't really think shield cancels are ATs lol.
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I agree.
Shield cancels are horridly simple, and the multi-hit aerial down-B seems to be a mechanic built-in but they're treated as AT's because they weren't obvious at the start.

Either way, we'd still use shield cancels to fool people... XD

Meta-Kirby said:
Whistle Cancel? Lag Canceled Tether Grab? Pivot Grab?
He doesn't have alot, but the ones he has are **** useful.
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lol

-------------------------

@ tourney placements and stuff:
I mentioned elsewhere that if you wanted to prove your character is better than people think it is, your goal isn't necessarily to place first in a tournament (as good as that would be for you personally) - it's to give good players a run for their money when you're in a tournament and correct what could be false matchup information so people can see your character's value(s) for what it really is.
 
Vorguen

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I stopped playing Melee simply because I felt 7 years was enough and it was time to try something new. All in all, it took me a long time but I warmed up to Brawl and now I like it better.
 
S

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LULZ NOO TIRE LIST N00B

God:

Meta Knight

Top:

Snake
Falco
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Marth
Diddy Kong
Wario

High:

R.O.B
Lucario
Olimar
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Peach
Toon Link
Pit

Middle:

Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Luigi
Zelda
Bowser
Sheik
Fox
Sonic
Yoshi
Ness

Low:

Ike
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Lucas
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff

Bottom:

Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
 
A

Atlas242

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The Problem with the State of this tier is it classifies the characters on an undefined scale. It is ordered from best to worst. But how can someone decide when a character is all of a sudden better than another. Is there any scale for betterness? I think that there should be Multiple tiers, not scaled by how much character A is better than character B, but more scaled on the different attributes each Character possessess, like speed, knocking power, and recovery. This kind of scale would provide more strategy friendly character selection based on the player. it would also eliminate reasons for picking a character such as "I pick Metaknight since he's the best." The explinations would become more like "I chose Ike because of his superb sending ability. I'm not concerened about speed, if they're faster, they'll come to me."
 
A

Atlas242

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If you play an argument well enough. Sure, he's got great speed and recovery, but he's also light and has not the greatest knocking power. Describing Metaknight as best would be a misnomer because there is no scale for better. There is however a scale for how fast he goes, how light he is, and how far he can send a dead weight body. I'm suggesting a scale with no one on top of it all. One where player's can draw their own conclusion based on what they like in a character.
 
Red Arremer

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I understand where you're coming from, but you misunderstand the concept of a tierlist. <_<"
Judging from your posts you seem like you have a brain and use it, so I'll explain it to you...

No matter what you try to say... it has been like that in all fighting games ever, and will always be like that. There are characters which are better than others. And by better, I don't mean faster or stronger, but BETTER. Of course, no character is perfect (except maybe Akuma from Street Fighter Zero 2...), but there are always characters better than others.

A tierlist is based on several factors such as potential of the character, their metagame, matchups, tournament results, and - if benefiting - advanced techniques.

Mind you, the tier list is NOT absolute, as a good Captain Falcon can beat a bad Meta Knight. The tierlist is rather a conclusion on which character has the higher chances of winning a match.

All under the assumption of comparing to equally skilled and good players - realistically not existing, of course, but tierlist is theorycraft after all - play against each other. If A uses Meta Knight and B uses Captain Falcon, and - as said - both are equally skilled, then the CHANCE of A winning is higher, because Meta Knight is a better character than Captain Falcon.
And this is what the tierlist is: A statistic of potential.

B still can win due to circumstances like luck, environment, mood of both players, etc.

But, theoratically - backed up by statistics, tournament results and so on - A will win.
 
TheBuzzSaw

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It doesn't matter how light a character is if you can never hit him. :p
 
Collective of Bears

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Atlas242 said:
If you play an argument well enough. Sure, he's got great speed and recovery, but he's also light and has not the greatest knocking power. Describing Metaknight as best would be a misnomer because there is no scale for better. There is however a scale for how fast he goes, how light he is, and how far he can send a dead weight body. I'm suggesting a scale with no one on top of it all. One where player's can draw their own conclusion based on what they like in a character.
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Yes there is. I do believe it's called a Tier List. I think we already have one of those, though.
 
B

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Weren't all members of the SBR simply asked to rank all characters in order from best to worst according to them?

Meta-Kirby said:
Whistle Cancel? Lag Canceled Tether Grab? Pivot Grab?
He doesn't have alot, but the ones he has are **** useful.
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Whistle Armor Canceling is not an AT. It's simply taking advantage of a property of his down-b to negate knockback. Wario and DK's forward smashes are not ATs for the very same reasons, lol. And Pivot grab? Seriously?

Neither of these are ATs. :D Olimar doesn't need that bull.
 
M.K

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BentoBox said:
Weren't all members of the SBR simply asked to rank all characters in order from best to worst according to them?



Whistle Armor Canceling is not an AT. It's simply taking advantage of a property of his down-b to negate knockback. Wario and DK's forward smashes are not ATs for the very same reasons, lol. And Pivot grab? Seriously?

Neither of these are ATs. :D Olimar doesn't need that bull.
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Haha, yeah, I was pretty much grasping at straws to find AT's to prove my point XD.
Ok, so uh...Pokemon Trainer....

His tournament results are looking quite decent, could we see a rise in his position any time soon? The only thing that sends him to the bottom is a lack of decent tournament representation, but I *think* that is changing slowly.
Seriously, he isn't the 6th worst character in the game >.> Squirtle is a freaking wall of annoyance who can poke and poke and poke until the day comes, Ivysaur has a great projectile and racks up damage quickly (AND has decent kill moves), and Charizard's grab game is freaking monstrous. Seriously, he can grab you from like....a mile away.
 
PKNintendo

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Vorguen said:
What is that supposed to be? Your own opinion? I noticed your interesting arrangement leaving Yoshi in mid. lol
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It`s pretty decent Vorguen.

And MK has got nothing on Garchomp who owned the Metagame harder than he did!
 
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