The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Collective of Bears]

Ok, so uh...Pokemon Trainer....

His tournament results are looking quite decent, could we see a rise in his position any time soon? The only thing that sends him to the bottom is a lack of decent tournament representation, but I *think* that is changing slowly.
Seriously, he isn't the 6th worst character in the game >.> Squirtle is a freaking wall of annoyance who can poke and poke and poke until the day comes, Ivysaur has a great projectile and racks up damage quickly (AND has decent kill moves), and Charizard's grab game is freaking monstrous. Seriously, he can grab you from like....a mile away.

I was thinking this myself. Pokemon Trainer isn't neccessarily Top, but 6th worst is pretty low.

 

[Atlas242]

But the initial point is that if you ask players to rank how well they think each character is, that isn't quantifying facts, its quantifying opinion. Quantified opinion is popularity, which leads players to use the characters with the most. However in broken down tiers made into that of individual stats, it makes it impossible to put one character at the top of each catagory, unless they simply are perfect. This new arangement of the data, or simply, veiwing of the data would cause player's to choose characters based on strategy, instead of just saying give me metaknight, and i'll press buttons until you die, simply because it's work everytime since.

 

[Vorguen]

Okay Meta Knight is lighter and easier to KO. Good luck KO'ing him when you can't touch him.

 

[Red Arremer]

But the initial point is that if you ask players to rank how well they think each character is, that isn't quantifying facts, its quantifying opinion.

So you're saying that the best players of the world have no idea how good a character is...?

 

[Vorguen]

Spadefox has spoken.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Atlas242, I see what you're getting at, and it is partially correct. The tier list is indeed an attempted quantification of opinions, but it is a very accurate process. The tier list is not a popularity contest. The group involved in determining its fate (the SBR) has a very objective view on the set of characters.

 

[BentoBox]

@Spade: Not every member in the SBR is amongst the best in the world.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

@Spade: Not every member in the SBR is amongst the best in the world.

But being the best is only the part of the mix.

Not every pro player is very good at analyzing characters.

Not every good character analyst is a pro player.

The SBR chooses its members wisely.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Spade: Not every member in the SBR is amongst the best in the world.

Of course. I just was generally speaking.

Then let's say it differently, just for you:
The SBR consists pretty much of the most knowledgeable people in the Smash scene - or at least some of these people.

Naturally, not everything can be spot-on accurate. Everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone knows everything about every character. That's pretty much a given.

But saying that the tierlist - made by those said knowledgeable people - is nothing but a popularity contest, is, imo, not correct.

As Buzz correctly said: The SBR chooses its members wisely, and does not randomly take people coming from nowhere saying "lulz i think ur all gud, pley me so i can show u tat im gud 2!!".
The tierlist also is not made up by asking random players, as well.

I hope I made my point clear now.

 

[M.K]

Of course. I just was generally speaking.

Then let's say it differently, just for you:
The SBR consists pretty much of the most knowledgeable people in the Smash scene - or at least some of these people.

Naturally, not everything can be spot-on accurate. Everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone knows everything about every character. That's pretty much a given.

But saying that the tierlist - made by those said knowledgeable people - is nothing but a popularity contest, is, imo, not correct.

As Buzz correctly said: The SBR chooses its members wisely, and does not randomly take people coming from nowhere saying "lulz i think ur all gud, pley me so i can show u tat im gud 2!!".
The tierlist also is not made up by asking random players, as well.

I hope I made my point clear now.

You are correct, however, my problem lies with the sheer ignorance of the SBR towards SOME of the characters. They can't be perfect on each character, but they can be SEMI-accurate. The characters rotting on the bottom of the tier list are either OVERWHELMING blatently bad or completely misunderstood.

 

[BentoBox]

This is the stance I shared earlier in this thread

By having Jesiah post his own list, you guys all have to realize how objective this all really is. Most of these people and the scene in which they play in does not give them the exposure to the entirety of the cast played at its highest potential to be able to discern effectively which character belongs where. It is hence obvious that because of a lack of representation the farther down you go through the list, the less accurate it gets. Now, I know I'll sound like a broken record... but Yoshi (who I really do not know much about myself), goes about even with a large majority of the cast along with a few 60:40s against high tiers, which is really no different from Peach's match-ups (my current main). And this is what a near-perfect tier list should display. But it does not, and as a consolation, Yoshi mains are told that they should get out there and show what they're capable of... which is quite ironic considering the people who had the power to vote weren't well informed themselves.

All in all, just do your thing. There is no need to get butt hurt over this.

I still stand by this.

In case anyone's curious, here was my list when I voted.

15-Snake, Meta Knight
14-Diddy Kong, Olimar
13-King DeDeDe, Falco, Marth, Game and Watch
12-Wario, Donkey Kong
11-Zero Suit Samus
10- Kirby, Lucario, Luigi
9-R.O.B., Pikachu, Mario
8-Ice Climbers
7-Peach, Ike, Sheik, Zelda
6-Pit, Bowser, Yoshi, Wolf
5-Sonic, Toon Link
4-Fox, Pokemon Trainer, Samus
3-Ness, Lucas
2-Falcon, Jigglypuff
1-Ganondorf, Link

I find myself to agree with Jesiah's list more than the SBR's, but that's not the point. You know who it is that made Jesiah value ZSS so much. We all know who's been doing wonders with the plumbers recently. And I have no idea why he'd rank Olimar as the 4th best character in the game, lol. Mr.SBR#43 who might not have the same exposure to these characters is obviously going to disagree with this list and vote consequently. This is not what I have in mind when I think of the best players in the world sharing their opinions, which should eventually lead in an unanimous decision. By having everyone vote like this, I do imagine that some players are -still- left in the dark regarding certain obscure characters.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes, I agree.

As I said several times in this and other threads: The democracy system in the SBR used to make this tier list is a very blurry thing.

Not every SBRoomer knows all about characters like Yoshi, Ness or Mario, resulting in the tier list we have right now.

The democracy is what makes this tierlist not as good as it could be. I have no idea about PT, so I would feel bad if I had to place him somewhere he doesn't really belong.

The other way around would be someone placing crappy characters into higher positions for whatever reason, therefore blurrying the tierlist even more.
I could - if I were a BRoomer - vote Captain Falcon for 15 and MK for 1 point. Of course, that's just an extreme example of how the tier list can be falsified due to democracy.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The major issue is that only a handful of characters even rank decently in competition. Really the tier list should consist of Top Tier, High Tier, and "Everyone Else".

 

[Red Arremer]

The major issue is that only a handful of characters even rank decently in competition. Really the tier list should consist of Top Tier, High Tier, and "Everyone Else".

That would kill off those people whining about too many tiers. ^_^

 

[thesage]

Everyone else can be split up pretty well actually. I mean there's a clear difference between Luigi and Falcon.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

That would kill off those people whining about too many tiers. ^_^

LOL! Gotta keep the masses happy, I suppose...

Well, for instance... Does it really matter that Link is above Captain Falcon? The fact is they both have huge barriers to overcome before being considered tournament-viable. That's not to say they cannot win local events. With enough practice, anyone can win at a competition in his/her region. However, once you start talking in terms of regional/national, the tiers really come into play, and only the top quarter of characters even stand a chance. That's how it was in Melee, too.

 

[BentoBox]

Imo, every board should have its own Emblem Lord. Every match-up should be discussed thoroughly and revised periodically. The characters currently higher on the tier list would have a # value assigned to them and the lower you go, the lower said value gets. You'd then compile every character's total value by the number of point it has, points being computed by adding up all the # assigned to the character they have a favorable match up against. This would hence effectively representing a character's position in the tier list, regardless of exposure. Though, for this to work, you'd actually need an accurate tier list xD.

ie. MK = 15, Snake = 14, Falco = 13. Peach goes 35:65, 45:55 and 40:60 respectively. So that's 15*35% + 14*45% + 13*40% = 16.75~ Etc etc.

Yes, this is flawed. But you get the point.

edit: lol this really doesn't work at all :D

Regarding match-up ratios, everybody claims that the character discussion boards are far from accurate but yet we are given no input whatsoever from the "elite" to direct us in the right way. What gives?

 

[Atlas242]

But one of the main theories with tiers is that if two players of equal skill squared off, one with metaknight, the other with donkey kong, the one with metaknight should win. However players of equal skill might not have the same skill with every character. In meele, I absolutely sucked with marth and sheik. My characters often involved rotation between Dr. Mario, Ice climbers, Young link, and Falco. With the highest tier character in my rotation being Falco, I was able to match equally all oponents of my skill level, almost all of who used Marth.

Also is the fact that tounement winings also play a big role in the creation of tiers adds to an argument against their current setup. Say someone started winning tournements, alot of them. And with someone like Bowser, which for all cases and purposes, defies almost every tier created. However with irrefutable evidence in front of the SBR, no mater how biased some may be towards the immortalization of Metaknight, Bowser would soon be climbing the ranks, players would see this, expeirement with bowser and unlock potential that was not seen before.

This brings up another flaw in tiers. They Change. Since betterness is so hard to determine, so much that it isn't even an actual english word, the rankings are bound to change. Whereas a stat like Speed won't change unless some how someone modded the programing on their copy of Brawl to make Sonic more insanely fast than he already is.

I can't live with the fact that some Smash Oligarchy gets to say who's better than who, I just want hard evidence to let me form my own opinion.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But one of the main theories with tiers is that if two players of equal skill squared off, one with metaknight, the other with donkey kong, the one with metaknight should win. However players of equal skill might not have the same skill with every character. In meele, I absolutely sucked with marth and sheik. My characters often involved rotation between Dr. Mario, Ice climbers, Young link, and Falco. With the highest tier character in my rotation being Falco, I was able to match equally all oponents of my skill level, almost all of who used Marth.

But why would someone play with a character they are not polished with? That defeats the point of your analogy. The DK player is not going to have any real hopes of winning unless he is a REAL DK player. From there, MK wins anyway, and the tiers are confirmed.

Also is the fact that tounement winings also play a big role in the creation of tiers adds to an argument against their current setup. Say someone started winning tournements, alot of them. And with someone like Bowser, which for all cases and purposes, defies almost every tier created. However with irrefutable evidence in front of the SBR, no mater how biased some may be towards the immortalization of Metaknight, Bowser would soon be climbing the ranks, players would see this, expeirement with bowser and unlock potential that was not seen before.

But... that's the point. The list reflects the current metagame. It's not about last year's; it's not about next year's either. It doesn't matter that Link has some godly amount of untapped potential to make him untouchable. Until someone comes along and unlocks that potential, he is bottom tier.

This brings up another flaw in tiers. They Change. Since betterness is so hard to determine, so much that it isn't even an actual english word, the rankings are bound to change. Whereas a stat like Speed won't change unless some how someone modded the programing on their copy of Brawl to make Sonic more insanely fast than he already is.

See above, I guess. I just made this point.

I can't live with the fact that some Smash Oligarchy gets to say who's better than who, I just want hard evidence to let me form my own opinion.

Ah ha, here is the fun part. If you don't agree with the tier list, prove it wrong. Beat all Meta Knights with a character of your choice. Show the world what your main is capable of. The tier list is not doomed to be dictated by the whims of the SBR. If you started winning everywhere consistently with Captain Falcon, the SBR would take note of that and adjust the list.

 

[Red Arremer]

I like how he considers Bowser being so bad. ^_^
Not that he's alone or that it surprises me, I still love it.

Otherwise, I can only sign Buzz' posting...

 

[BentoBox]

Ah ha, here is the fun part. If you don't agree with the tier list, prove it wrong. Beat all Meta Knights with a character of your choice. Show the world what your main is capable of. The tier list is not doomed to be dictated by the whims of the SBR. If you started winning everywhere consistently with Captain Falcon, the SBR would take note of that and adjust the list.

The burden of proof is placed upon us when the SBR does not have to explain the reasoning behind the placing of each individual character? Lack of exposure should not be a factor.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The burden of proof is placed upon us when the SBR does not have to explain the reasoning behind the placing of each individual character? Lack of exposure should not be a factor.

Let me put it this way...

[size=+4]Yes.[/size]

 

[BentoBox]

The tier list successfully directs a sizeable amount of the community towards the top of the list, rendering the bottoms doomed for all eternity. You're literally shooting a man's foot and asking him to go do the triathlon.

 

[Atlas242]

But In my example I DID beat all the metaknights with a bottom tier character. except the Metaknights were marths and the bottom tier character was young link. Also I still don't see how betterness can be quantified to a point where something has more of it. The current tiers are thuroughly closed and seclusive, with little hope of knocking metaknight of his perch, and less of it overtime. If there was less opinion and more fact in the matter, this wouldn't be such a problem. We stand at risk of being oppressed by tradition, where some one has no choice to hop on the band wagon, they're chained to it, whereas openended facts leave decideing up to the individual players, thus providing more diversity.

 

[Red Arremer]

Were those Marths player one would recognize? Like, let's say, Ken?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Meta Knight's position is based on fact. The SBR does not gather together and say, "Meta Knight is freakin' cool. He gets the top spot." Have you seen tournament results recently? Do you see how many slots are occupied by Meta Knight? How can you argue with that? What better support for Meta Knight's position is there when he is the one winning all the time? And trust me, Meta Knight was dominating before the first tier list even came out.

 

[Atlas242]

But soon because of websites like this, everyone plays as metaknight, with the same strategy until it's basically four mirror images on the screen and it's only by luck that anyone wins because of the lack of diversity in strategy. Away to avoid this fate is to simply tell the players to decide for yourselves. this is not the law that governs the game, just an opinion, use this list to see the streangths and weaknesses of each character and make your own.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But soon because of websites like this, everyone plays as metaknight, with the same strategy until it's basically four mirror images on the screen and it's only by luck that anyone wins because of the lack of diversity in strategy. Away to avoid this fate is to simply tell the players to decide for yourselves. this is not the law that governs the game, just an opinion, use this list to see the streangths and weaknesses of each character and make your own.

... That's what the list does. Where did you get that this list governs everyone's character choices?

 

[Red Arremer]

No, it's not going to be like this. The game is only a year out. Melee needed 7 of them to release the final tier list.

Back in Melee, when the first tier list was made, Sheik was absolutely dominating tournaments and she was the very top of the list.
However, people started to try to overcome Sheik's dominance in starting to find tactics against her, new advanced techniques, etc.

Look at where Sheik is now. Third. Behind Marth and Fox.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I think Luigi was the most neglected in Melee. So many top players vouched for his potential.

 

[kr3wman]

That's a big drop.

But with brawl mechanics as they are, I don't see MK dropping ever.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm not going to lie. Despite not having any personal MK experience (and only having seen various videos of what he can do), I was able to pick him up and start 3-stocking my friend during one smash session. He's just so stupidly easy to use.

 

[Vorguen]

I'm not going to lie. Despite not having any personal MK experience (and only having seen various videos of what he can do), I was able to pick him up and start 3-stocking my friend during one smash session. He's just so stupidly easy to use.

You forgot to tell us your friend didn't have any fingers...

 

[thesage]

I'm not going to lie. Despite not having any personal MK experience (and only having seen various videos of what he can do), I was able to pick him up and start 3-stocking my friend during one smash session. He's just so stupidly easy to use.

How are you in the sbr when you've only seen vids of what mk can do and your one day experience with him?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

How are you in the sbr when you've only seen vids of what mk can do and your one day experience with him?

LOL! First off, did I say that this session was yesterday? Secondly, it doesn't take a Meta Knight main to know that he is the best. >_>

 

[BentoBox]

Melee is my guess.

 

[thesage]

LOL! First off, did I say that this session was yesterday? Secondly, it doesn't take a Meta Knight main to know that he is the best. >_>

Anybody with basic knowledge of competitive play who has played the game for like 5 min can tell me that. What my point was, do you actually play against people to know what he is truely capable of? I mean, when a sbr member says he's experiencing things for the first time (ie fighting against/as) in relation to the most played character in the game it's somewhat concerning to me >_>;

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Anybody with basic knowledge of competitive play who has played the game for like 5 min can tell me that. What my point was, do you actually play against people to know what he is truely capable of? I mean, when a sbr member says he's experiencing things for the first time (ie fighting against/as) in relation to the most played character in the game it's somewhat concerning to me >_>;

Yes, I do play against people who know what he is capable of. I was merely citing my experience with first picking him up myself. My point is that simply picking up Meta Knight skips 50% of the work involved with making a character good. Granted, you still have to be well rehearsed in order to perform in a tournament and win.

 

[Vorguen]

I don't know. Meta Knight has some really difficult advanced Techs. I'm still having trouble with the multiple jumps and his glide.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I don't know. Meta Knight has some really difficult advanced Techs. I'm still having trouble with the multiple jumps and his glide.

I agree. I'm not a Meta Knight pro by any means. I'm just pointing out that its absurd that simply choosing a character with such low lag can neutralize all the work put in by another character main.