The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[kr3wman]

Toughen up. Most of Canada isn't that cold. I used to live in freaking Winnipeg. Toronto has nothing on Winterpeg.

Winnipeg is literally nothing but wind.

Try living in Montreal. You get a real city and a real winter.

Toughen up.

 

[Lenus Altair]

After looking over this thread from the beginning, I feel that I still have one small complaint. I think the voting system was a little... arbitrary. Why was a scale of 1-15 set as opposed to 1-10? 1-20? I personally don't see why they didn't just have each SBR member write a full tier list 1-37, and average the individual positions as votes.

If I missed that discussion, sorry in advanced.

 

[Red Arremer]

Because writing out full tier lists and having the average of it tallied out is far more inaccurate than how the voting process was used here, because in this way the BRoomers who weren't sure about the exact placement of certain characters would have to arrange the characters they don't know well or at all, literally screwing up the whole Low Tier section even more than it is right now. In the way it was done, they could put characters they're not specifically sure about into the same point section.

I dunno why specifically 15 was used, but it seems fine to me, considering we have 37 characters to vote for. That makes an average of 2-3 characters per point. Sounds kinda reasonable - 20 would be too much, and 10 seems too little.

 

[aeghrur]

I can't believe how people actually believe bowser should be better than sonic in a tournament setting UNLESS the tourny host is banning the DDD infinite.
With the infinite, Bowser has basically a 95-5 matchup that people can learn in 10 minutes. >_>

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

You could learn it during the set.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not on the last page, but the two or three before that people were saying that Metaknight and Snake don't deserve their own tiers, but according to the system that the SBR used they do.

Except that isn't the issue. THe issue is that they are saying the system that was used is flawed in itself because of the method they used.
TIer gaps represent that a character has "that" much more potential, there is a noticeable jump from one character to the other.
Metaknight doesn't have a gap with himself and Snake.

That is why everyone is talking about it, they know how it was formed, they are talking about why it is flawed.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Because writing out full tier lists and having the average of it tallied out is far more inaccurate than how the voting process was used here, because in this way the BRoomers who weren't sure about the exact placement of certain characters would have to arrange the characters they don't know well or at all, literally screwing up the whole Low Tier section even more than it is right now. In the way it was done, they could put characters they're not specifically sure about into the same point section.

I dunno why specifically 15 was used, but it seems fine to me, considering we have 37 characters to vote for. That makes an average of 2-3 characters per point. Sounds kinda reasonable - 20 would be too much, and 10 seems too little.

I agree that being forced to place one character over another could cause some inaccuracies particular in the lower tier, but at the same time would encourage analysis of things like "Who is the better character, Ness or Lucas?" to be asked and possible negate that scenario.

I personally don't think that it would make a huge difference at this point, but again 15 still seems arbitrary. What makes a Character a 9? A 6? A 4? Where do you make that cut between 2 or 3 character per point value to drop/raise one to the next integer? If a tier list is going to rank characters from 1-37, you should vote as ranking them from 1-37. The 15 point system just seems to encourage generalizations, which in itself cause inaccuracies.

 

[rehab]

*cough* *cough*

I can't remember if we ever did Wario/Sonic. That one Luigi game though. Thank GOD he wasn't my main, I would've been crushed.

Snake is bottom tier on final D

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Winnipeg is literally nothing but wind.

Try living in Montreal. You get a real city and a real winter.

Toughen up.

-40 degrees without the windchill + snow up to the doorhandle in May + coldest corner in Canada = just wind?

lulz at Winnipeg being just wind.

 

[kr3wman]

-40 degrees without the windchill + snow up to the doorhandle in May + coldest corner in Canada = just wind?

lulz at Winnipeg being just wind.

Just wind dog. Just wind. I met people who actually thought Winnipeg was worse than Hell since atleast in Hell something happens.

 

[Vorguen]

I can't remember if we ever did Wario/Sonic. That one Luigi game though. Thank GOD he wasn't my main, I would've been crushed.

Snake is bottom tier on final D

What's wrong with Snake on Final Destination?

He can keep good control of the stage by keeping his explosives in the right spots and his grenade game is probably better with that extra space anyway.


Edit: It might not be his best map but I see no reason why it would be his worst.

 

[Kinzer]

It's quite the opposite.

People take the tier list as an insult to their skill with their character and work twice as hard to bring them up.

Heck, just look at the yoshi and sonic mainers. They are pissed.

Basically, stop QQing stop worrying. People play the characters they want because they like them.

Not for people who are taking a glance at this and not having played the game for too long. Sure that is correct about how the people in the lower portion will work much harder, but that gets nullified with the more tier-whores moving back to teh top to populate them.

umby gives me a boner

Awesome.

i know what im talking about its just i actually sleep and do other things as well.

well everyone gets ***** by meta knight

Meh, I was gonig to say obvious troll was obvious, but forget it, he took back his word, so he's okay now. I couldn't see that before I multi-quoted this about a bijillion pages later and a couple of days late.

****not directed entirely at ShadowLink, but to the mains of Sonic, sorry for any confusion****


Look, alot of other characters are placing well in the tournaments yet still fall to the bottom of the tier list.

The problem with Sonic mains is that all they do is complain and complain about how little everyone else but them knows about their character.


Because we're tired of having to deal with all this BS, if you were in our shoes you would see our problems we have to face with every ignorant person. Although I acknowledge nobody knows about how Sonic works (and don't give me that sad excuse of how millions of Sonic players are out there, that would only apply to newbie fanboys. there's a difference between them and the potent Sonic mains.


Well you know what? There are ALOT of characters like that, but why do I only see you guys complaining about it?


I guess one reason could be that we actually care? Yes Tier lists shouldn't be taken seriously and blah blah blah but it gets annoying after a while when the people who don't know this think it is law.


This list does not change how you play Sonic, nor does it change his priority, his attacks, your playstyle, his recovery, OR his ability to place well in tournaments.


Read what I said above.


You, and all other adamant Sonic mains, need to get over the fact that your character is inferior to others.


Give me one example of a frequent Sonic mainer who is implying that Sonic is actually (seriously) good. Good luck with that, and while you're at it, we are open to be persuaded... if we are wrong... which we have to be in a few if any points.


Maybe you need to get over the fact that nobody realizes Sonic's "potential", I don't know.


We're just trying to get that around, we know we can't make every person in the world realise this, but we would be better off then than now.


Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Link, and Falcon mains also say the same things about their charaters, but I don't see any of them rising up and complaining! You know why? Because they have accepted their spot on the tier list and continue to strive to climb higher.


I hear Falcon boarders are trying to at least make him the second worst character, and they probably aren't complaining because they have accepted that he is a terribad character like Sonic. I also think Ness and PT were placed right, even according to them, so that might be why they aren't bawwing at this.


As stated before, the tournaments that Sonic is placing in have been small tournaments.


Can't deny that, though we'll be placing in bigger tourneys in the future soon.


It is a common fact that a tier list is the order of competitive potential at the PINNACLE of competitive play, and the list is known to fluctuate greatly with lesser skilled players. Sonic is placing, yes, but do these placings matter as much as other characters? No.


So why shouldn't he be as recognized as somebody like SAMUS who is placing HIGHER and defenitely has better matchups than her in her armored form? For crying out loud Sonic doesn't have any hard-counters! As Shadowlink has said, this is not consistent (although I don't agree with him saying Sonic is a better character than Bowser... maybe in different fields, but I can see them being even, it's just the poor dragon-turtle isn't represented as much).[/B]

Responses in Bold, because I'm too lazy to scroll up and down and having to remember which part I am responding too.

-_-

Captain Falcon. (37th on the Tier, 19th in the Rankings)

and if you need an opposite for comparison:

Mr Game and Watch (5th on the Tier List, 16th in the Rankings)

Captain Falcon's rank is about as skewed as the letter W, whereas Sonic is more straightforward than that (even if it is flawed, it is our best indication yet).

Because Bowser is a better character than Sonic is. The end?

Fail, way to give reasoning.

Putting up tournament results doesn't make a character good.

So I guess Meta Knight doesn't count? At least you're right about the results not enitrely maknig a character for who he/she/it/potato is.

Just because people don't play a character doesn't mean he isn't good.

Bowser is a prime example of this.

WEEEEEEEEEE!

Because more people know how to play against Bowser than Sonic?

How is this even possible?

What was the last time someone good lost to a Sonic? How about a Bowser?

Go look at the big name Sonic. they exist BTW, such as Mr. 3,000, I think it's safe to say Espy is one right now, and MalcolmM.

The only example I can think of for Bowser is Sliq.

Look: Sonic is Sonic, and the tier list changes nothing. Your whining about it implies that you don't understand what the tier list even is or what it means. "We don't get enough respect" = "I am a troll, please ban me."

Way to generalize.

Responses in Bold, for the same reasons as last.

Logic.

Umby, you got to have my hedgehog babies if not at the very least come back to the Sonic Boards to at least correct false imformation.

Sonic is horrible.

This.

I'm sorry I had to talk about Sonic again, but apparently people won't let this die, we're not even the ones forcing this anymore after K.I.D. BANhammered us out of here.

 

[KillerSOS]

Lolz at the banned kid. =)

 

[-Mars-]

Uuggh more Sonic talk, let me know when we actually discuss something.

 

[Kinzer]

How about how annoying people can get?

 

[Deathcarter]

Uuggh more Sonic talk, let me know when we actually discuss something.

I tried changing the discussion two times earlier in the thread, but the topic changed six posts later lolz.

EDIT: I beleive I could make a better Brawl tier list considering this one barely meets a passing grade. Lets see if this will catch anyones eye.

In-game music tier list (grouped by series)

Top
F-Zero
Metal Gear Solid

High
Kirby
Legend of Zelda
Star Fox
Super Smash Bros.
Pokemon

Middle
Super Mario Bros
Fire Emblem
Animal Crossing
Mario Kart
Sonic
Yoshi's Island
Golden Sun (its one song kicked enough butt to land it in mid tier)
Metroid

Low
Earthbound
Wario Ware Inc.
Donkey Kong
Pikmin
Kid Icarus (After listening to one of its songs, I have to listen to Mute City just to eliminate the leftover unmanliness)

Bottom
Game & Watch
Ice Climber

Hey, I didn't say the tier list would be related to the metagame (besides, this did not need its own thread).

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Look, I don't know what makes Sonic worse than character X, Y, or Z. But honestly, do you?

How many people don't believe their mains are better than the current general evaluation of them? Honestly.

So you have to consider your own terrible, horrible bias, which is likely to be very strong and it is unlikely you are capable of stepping outside of yourself. Why?

Because the way you argue indcates the inability to look at things objectively.

You claim you do not rely soley on tournament results, then every single one of your arguments is based on tournament results.

I'm sorry, but that indicates that your argument is, in fact, soley based on tournament results and that you do not even understand your own argument, let alone anyone else's.

Please stop being worthless and learn how to argue, or at least how to lie better.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Ugh I hate coming in here and everything I read is about Sonic. Isn't enough enough??

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Its never enough for them. ROY IS TOP TIER!

Er, I mean, SONIC IS UNDERRATED.

Er, I mean, MAC FOR HIGH TIER!

 

[Browny]

Obviously not? Maybe Sonic is a more interesting point to debate than the majority of appropriately placed characters. There is a reason why most other characters dont last more than 1 page of discussion, coz theres nothing to talk about!

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Substitute "nothing to talk about" with "a bunch of whiny scrubs" and you've got why there is so much Sonic in here. Its not discussion, its "I want attention". And I suppose by responding to the idiots, we are giving them the attention they desire.

The Yoshis believe him to be better, and they've got actual reasons (decent matchup against MK, eggs, a lot of ATs, good air game, awful shield, eggs, grab releases, infinites, and, of course, eggs). But they aren't whining in here because they think its pointless to do so, and they're right.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm sorry I had to talk about Sonic again, but apparently people won't let this die, we're not even the ones forcing this anymore after K.I.D. BANhammered us out of here.

Yes, hence I was so fed up with YET ANOTHER Sonic main to come up and start the whole discussion YET AGAIN. All arguments have been brought already several times the first time, now, the second time, the same arguments are brought up again. Ugh. It won't change anything if you guys do it over and over again except for everyone being annoyed at Sonic players.

Uuggh more Sonic talk, let me know when we actually discuss something.

kk, will send you a Visitor Message then.

Top
F-Zero

This wins. /thread

No, seriously, mang, marry me. F-Zero is the shiz. Best music EVER. <3
(and best game series ever. You can't deny the awesomeness of Pico or Bio Rex)

Obviously not? Maybe Sonic is a more interesting point to debate than the majority of appropriately placed characters. There is a reason why most other characters dont last more than 1 page of discussion, coz theres nothing to talk about!

Not really. Especially since Sonic has been discussed already to a very extensive measure. It was okay once it lasted, but slowly it's getting ridiculous.

You want more interesting debates on characters? Fine, then let's talk about Ness and Lucas. I would LOVE to know why they are tied, and debate about them.

Ugh I hate coming in here and everything I read is about Sonic. Isn't enough enough??

I agree with you.

I agree that being forced to place one character over another could cause some inaccuracies particular in the lower tier, but at the same time would encourage analysis of things like "Who is the better character, Ness or Lucas?" to be asked and possible negate that scenario.

The problem is, although everyone in the SBR should think like that and do research on every character to the point that they know who the better characters is. However, not everyone does so. Obvious bias starts out. Everyone agrees that Captain Falcon (just as an example) sucks, so noone really cares about getting to know the character better and note WHY he sucks.

I personally don't think that it would make a huge difference at this point, but again 15 still seems arbitrary. What makes a Character a 9? A 6? A 4? Where do you make that cut between 2 or 3 character per point value to drop/raise one to the next integer? If a tier list is going to rank characters from 1-37, you should vote as ranking them from 1-37. The 15 point system just seems to encourage generalizations, which in itself cause inaccuracies.

The point system is imo still better, simply because you can group characters of the approximately same potential into one point section. As said, the voting system on a whole is flawed anyway because democracy always is flawed, especially when it comes to representative stuff.
There's a difference if I say: "I think Link does not so well,where to put him... Hmm... Ah yes, right here on place 33. That seems okay..." or "Link is a really really abysmal character, but he has a bit more potential than Falcon, so... I'll put him here into the 2-point group."

This makes the list, of course, less accurate due to the generalization, but makes it easier for the members who don't know the character they have to vote on.

It's hard for me to explain how I mean, so I hope you understand.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sonic does get a bit annoying to talk about. I do have respect for the options he has to mess up spacing, but I feel we see an excess of this talk. No offense to the Sonic mains around here, while there is a lot of genuine bias hatred merely from history of his games, it is important to talk about the aspects of the other characters on the tier list.

 

[Lenus Altair]

It's hard for me to explain how I mean, so I hope you understand.

I understand we have a difference of opinion, but honestly there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Umby]

Look, I don't know what makes Sonic worse than character X, Y, or Z. But honestly, do you?

How many people don't believe their mains are better than the current general evaluation of them? Honestly.

So you have to consider your own terrible, horrible bias, which is likely to be very strong and it is unlikely you are capable of stepping outside of yourself. Why?

Because the way you argue indcates the inability to look at things objectively.

You claim you do not rely soley on tournament results, then every single one of your arguments is based on tournament results.

I'm sorry, but that indicates that your argument is, in fact, soley based on tournament results and that you do not even understand your own argument, let alone anyone else's.

Please stop being worthless and learn how to argue, or at least how to lie better.

How is our argument based soley on tournament results? We constantly admit to the fact that there are more factors to the tier list than just tournament results. We are simply arguing that tournament results should be legitimate factors when considering placement. How the hell can you even tell us our argument is flawed when you consistently misinterpret such a simple concept? Furthermore, how can you even evaluate our arguments when you yourself choose not to explain why X character is or isn't better than Y character? You then bring up points that were already explained a million times and continue to misinterpret it the wrong way just because we are "whining". "Look at things objectively?" Right. Talk about understanding your own argument.

Substitute "nothing to talk about" with "a bunch of whiny scrubs" and you've got why there is so much Sonic in here. Its not discussion, its "I want attention". And I suppose by responding to the idiots, we are giving them the attention they desire.

The Yoshis believe him to be better, and they've got actual reasons (decent matchup against MK, eggs, a lot of ATs, good air game, awful shield, eggs, grab releases, infinites, and, of course, eggs). But they aren't whining in here because they think its pointless to do so, and they're right.

It's wonderful that you know that about Yoshi. Especially the specific stuff like good air game and a lot of ATs. Can you tell me what you know about Sonic without having to use a thread as a reference once you read this?

One of the main issues is how information about Sonic is often portrayed wrong, so we get angry at some of the bias received. If it weren't for that, you honestly wouldn't hear most Sonics whining. That said, when we bring up a point, someone comes in and makes a dumb/erroneous counterpoint, then we have to explain that it doesn't make sense. Then the same counterpoint is brought up again, and this dumb kind of conversation sparks.

Look. Sonic is in the lower part of the tier. I don't mind this. I expected this. I believe he has potential to be a bit higher. Do I care? Unless its somehow a significant rise, not really. However I do have an issue with people who can't see past their asses and understand that the reason logic is brought up about Sonic's tier placement is questioning to detect bias and to try and null bias when it comes to tier list placing/discussion. That way when people want to discuss this character in a Weekly Character Discussion or a podcast, accurate and valid information is used. It's also pretty ******** when people try to bring up the "whining" and "scrub" issue to validate their argument just because we're backing a low tier character. It just sounds like you're whining about whining.

Sonic does get a bit annoying to talk about. I do have respect for the options he has to mess up spacing, but I feel we see an excess of this talk. No offense to the Sonic mains around here, while there is a lot of genuine bias hatred merely from history of his games, it is important to talk about the aspects of the other characters on the tier list.

No doubt, but insults spark a response until insults stop, as you can see. I'd rather see more discussion ZSS or Toon Link.

 

[Tenki]

/sonic. no more.

A long long time ago, in a thread far away...

When I casted my vote I used the mentality that almost anybody with a projectile should be able to beat Sonic. Despite his speed (you're too slow ) I believe Sonic has a had time approaching as it is without projectiles to deal with. Unfortunately, a lot of the low tiers have projectiles (namely Mario/Ness/Lucas) so I ranked Sonic lower than them.

What else did you want to know?
(The answer to which you'll get in the morning. I'm sick and want to sleep >.<)

I think my initial problem with placing Sonic is things like his seeming lack of priority in a lot of things. I've said this before, he doesn't feel like a natural character to me, and no doubt to a lot of people. To really see what Sonic is made of, it's difficult to figure any of it out yourself. To me, Falcon feels much easier to handle than Sonic, but the fact is that Sonic can indeed be played better, given the right player who knows the right amount about playing Sonic.

I can admit that I was wrong in my assessment (You guys clearly showing me the error in my thinking with projectiles), and I can say after watching LuCKLess (or however it's formatted), that I want to invest more time into maining Sonic (Like I've always wanted to).

========================

lolol

considering how we only know of Espy and 3000 as TX Sonic mains, I don't think we count those people.

It sounds sort of elitist, but for the most part, we (and if you wish to disassociate, I) consider familiars and/or regulars to these boards, who read up on stuff and all that jazz as Sonic mains. While those people are probably fanboyx1-4 etc. If they went here and either read up on stuff or made a 'rate my sonic' thread, or heck, even played some of us on wifi for a bit, I'd almost guarantee they'd get alot better, and be less of a joke.

But from this group here, alot of us have problems showing up at tournaments, otherwise, the community would have a different impression of Sonic as a character XD

I'm not disputing this at all. Ninety-nine percent of Sonics I've faced off in tournament were terrible, but I also acknowledged that they probably weren't anybody of any sort of notoriety as well. All I'm saying is that I like to think that I'm a pretty level-headed guy, but seeing all these terrible Sonic players at every tournament still inadvertently influenced my impressions of the character up until a few weeks ago. But alas, this is what's happening: people see scrubby, no-name Sonic players at a local tournament, whoop the **** out of them, and assume Sonic just sucks.

You guys must be pretty resilient to put up with this sort of judgment call all the time. =)

I didn't even know about the existence of Spin Dash canceling/Spin Charge feints (whatever the proper terminology is, I apologize) until OH SNAP! v4.0, and 3K was the one who introduced me to all these tricky, annoying, wonderful little mind-game devices throughout our set. It got so confusing at times that the only way for me to sort out what was going on was for me to run to the other side of the stage and force his advance with projectiles. I think it's safe to say that he's stepped up his game considerably since April.

- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - --

Sorry that I don't have anything new or fresh to discuss, just wanted to get this out of the way.

Oh, and I really look forward to showing you how fast Sonic can be played at FS5 THieN. 3K's Sonic is slow (still awesome though).

Mmhmm. I'm getting so ****ed pumped for that one event.

LOL, you'll probably whoop the **** out of me. =)

I'm not excited about the drive, but I get to tear Hylian apart in friendlies all night tomorrow night, so it's all good.

---------- time skip ----------

This is precisely what happened a mere 10 hours ago at an epic Final Smash 5.

Espy is the most amazing Sonic main in the Milky Way.

This won't count as a 'big tournament' to any of the SBR now...will it?

"Majority : 93 people? Must've all been scrubs. *ignores result*"

Considering the caliber of players Espy was dismantling in friendlies and tournament play (and the fashion in which he was doing so), I think it's fair to say that Sonic is due for a healthy push in the next tier list update. Beyond getting a slight boost on a list that is generally pretty meaningless though, the rest is up to you guys. One fantastic player from San Antonio who happens to main a bad character can only do so much on his own.

you sonic people need to gtfo this thread.

If [edit]certain people wish to use healthy logic, then he they can, by all means, go ahead and use it.

(example:
"Character is low on the tier list."
"Explain why this character can't be higher?"
"Because bad characters are low on the tier list, and because this character is low on the tier list, he must be bad."
"But that's circular logic?"
"Stop whining, fanboy troll! l ololo asldflazxl")

But if you read the quotes above, you'd probably be able to tell that there's no real point arguing with [edit]certain people[/edit] who will probably never even get the chance to go against a Sonic main IRL, not to mention they have no say in the next tier list.

Arguing about the current tier list? No real point in that.

Wait until June.

/Sonic.

So I herd Yoshi went down.

 

[Chis]

Link, ZSS and Marth went up.

Er, and not knowing the match up is a persons problem, let's not suggest it's wide spread. If you mean the SBR, then more Sonic representation or something.

 

[Tenki]

What's the beef with Pokemon Trainer? :<

They all rack up damage and kill fast, and going into fatigue mode generally means that instead of:
[use killmove] > [opponent dies] > [die as current pokemon]

it's

[use killmove] > [opponent has to recover] > [switch] > [kill as next pokemon] > [maybe switch out and die as next one, if they want to go back to their old pokemon]

 

[Chis]

I think it's to do with none of the Pokemon being that good, switching a Pokemon into a bad match up and fatigue.

 

[Tenki]

How good is "that good"?

Also, to avoid having to use a badmatchup pokemon, there are certain things they do with the startup order and strategic switching/dying (especially between stocks) so that they avoid having to fight as the disadvantaged one as much as possible.

So really, most of the time, you end up fighting two pokemon, not three.

 

[Chis]

I don't think they're in, erm, high tier or anything. I wanted them to be separated, just to see how good they are but it's not the case :'(

 

[pheX]

Its very interesting!
I am also excited about the new list
appearing in june.

I'm not quite sure about Falco since he has pretty bad counters but its probably right, I just don't know that good falco players I guess.
I've been also suprised by olimar since his recovery really really really sux and he can be gimped easily. On the other hand, as soon as he is on the stage he has huge power with his grabs and confusing pikmin attacks which look all pretty much the same ( I do like to use olimar against people who havent got a lot of experience @ this match up. They are going doooown)


I just dont understand why Lucas is low tier, and even lower than Mario. He has powerful spam, and ridiciliously awesome Fsmash, powerful upsmash (i know the lag is horrible but, in certain situiation it can be used very well) a downsmash which is not too bad either.
Airattacks are all pretty great, fair is good for spacing, I think bair and dair spike, they have a good priority. Well his recovery is the ****, obviously.
But I think he has potential for midtier.

I might be prejudiced since one of germanys best players is a Lucas mainer, winning severel tournements.

 

[Red Arremer]

Its very interesting!
I am also excited about the new list
appearing in june.

Hai Phex~

I'm not quite sure about Falco since he has pretty bad counters but its probably right, I just don't know that good falco players I guess.

Falco is good. He doesn't have that many bad matchups as you think. He is one of the best characters in this game, as his only weakness is his poor recovery. The chaingrab makes him even better, without it he wouldn't be that much lower than he is right now.

I just dont understand why Lucas is low tier, and even lower than Mario. He has powerful spam, and ridiciliously awesome Fsmash, powerful upsmash (i know the lag is horrible but, in certain situiation it can be used very well) a downsmash which is not too bad either.
Airattacks are all pretty great, fair is good for spacing, I think bair and dair spike, they have a good priority. Well his recovery is the ****, obviously.
But I think he has potential for midtier.

Lucas has a lot of bad matchups, and his attacks overall are not that good. He is okay where he is right now, might shift a few more spots, but generally I agree with his position. Now Ness, though...

I might be prejudiced since one of germanys best players is a Lucas mainer, winning severel tournements.

Most likely.

 

[Darknid]

Its very interesting!
I am also excited about the new list
appearing in june.

I'm not quite sure about Falco since he has pretty bad counters but its probably right, I just don't know that good falco players I guess.
I've been also suprised by olimar since his recovery really really really sux and he can be gimped easily. On the other hand, as soon as he is on the stage he has huge power with his grabs and confusing pikmin attacks which look all pretty much the same ( I do like to use olimar against people who havent got a lot of experience @ this match up. They are going doooown)


I just dont understand why Lucas is low tier, and even lower than Mario. He has powerful spam, and ridiciliously awesome Fsmash, powerful upsmash (i know the lag is horrible but, in certain situiation it can be used very well) a downsmash which is not too bad either.
Airattacks are all pretty great, fair is good for spacing, I think bair and dair spike, they have a good priority. Well his recovery is the ****, obviously.
But I think he has potential for midtier.

I might be prejudiced since one of germanys best players is a Lucas mainer, winning severel tournements.

How does Lucas have powerful spam? All of his projectiles are easy to avoid and Lucas is forced to stop at the slightest closing of the gap because his projectile attacks leave him open to smashing. His aerials are okay, but they aren't very fast and it's very easy to overwhelm Lucas in the air. His recovery is horrible. His D smash and U smash both leave him wide open. When you compare him to a guy like Mario who has better smash attacks, a better aerial game, a better recovery, and the trickiness of his cape and FLUDD for gimping, it's really shocking that you'd consider Lucas to be any better. When compared to the low tier guys he stands out as being awful but when you start looking at him in comparison to high tier guys it just gets silly.

 

[The Slayer]

Well, at least Samus has a little boost to her rank last year. However, I wonder when she'll get more competition time for tournaments.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Look, I don't know what makes Sonic worse than character X, Y, or Z. But honestly, do you?

Of course, but if you don't know, why do you even argue?

How many people don't believe their mains are better than the current general evaluation of them? Honestly.

That isn't the nissue here at all. HOw many times must I repeat myself? The issue is that Sonic's placement does NOT match up with what has been stated, its inconsistent. If tournament results are a factor, as it has been said, then it should be noted for SOnic when it has been noted for other characters.

So you have to consider your own terrible, horrible bias, which is likely to be very strong and it is unlikely you are capable of stepping outside of yourself. Why?

Prove this claim now please.
I already stated I am not free from bias but show where I ahve been so heavily biased that everything I have said has been exaggerated or false.
Prove your accusations or shut up about them. Its annoying and a waste of time.

Because the way you argue indcates the inability to look at things objectively.

Everyone is biased to a certain degree. I have stated that earlier, it is impossible to make a purely objective argument.
The fact of the matter is that you are making an accusation of bias in a way that it renders the previous argument invalid. Which you have yet to prove in itself.
Its like calling someone a fanboy, prove that someone is so biased that their argument is completely invalid.

You claim you do not rely soley on tournament results, then every single one of your arguments is based on tournament results.

Which is why if you, you know, read the entire argument you would see that the tournament results are only a PART of the argument.

I'm sorry, but that indicates that your argument is, in fact, soley based on tournament results and that you do not even understand your own argument, let alone anyone else's.

Wrong, you've been strawmanning myself twice now and you STILL are doing so in spite of posts afterwards.
The only thing you have indicated is that you skim and do not understand your opponents argument.
Take your own advice.

Please stop being worthless and learn how to argue, or at least how to lie better.

This is rather pathetic to see.
So rather than address the argument (rather than commenting about it) you choose to openly flame and then go so far as to accuse the opposing party of lying?

Prove your accusations now or cease arguing, cause frankly, you are just wasting time.

This isn't even about SOnic, its the fact that you yourself make all these untrue claims, false accusations, and repeatedly misinterpret the argument of the opposing party in spite of the fact that those arguments have been clarified repeatedly afterwards.

It can hardly be called a debate when all you are doing is strawmanning the opposing party.


Anyways lets move on to Ness and Lucas.

Ness>Lucas.

On paper he is a better character. While Lucas does beat him ground game wise, it is not by a great margin and the edge is given to Ness in the fact that he has a more capable air game and better throws as well.

He also doesn't suffer as badly when he encounters characters who can mess with spacing which is a key issue for Lucas.'
Granted they both have their issues but Ness has some method of dealing with it. (how many characters can break through Ness' Fair?)

 

[Acid018]

hmmm, too many tiers.

I prefered 'Top tier, Middle tier, Low tier...'

 

[Chis]

@SL

Just use the report button, look:

Also, way was this out of 15 and not the number of characters?

 

[Milos]

I really like Lucas' bair I'm not going to lie.

That move alone makes me prefer Lucas greatly.

Ness is wack. ever since 64.

Sonic is fast, no priority, I don't care, like Tenki said, were I to main sonic, it'd only be because he's like, soooooooo cool.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic is fast, no priority, I don't care, like Tenki said, were I to main sonic, it'd only be because he's like, soooooooo cool.

Wh-

when did I say anything like that?

Seriously, this happens way too often lol. Relating something you say to something that sounds like I'd say it doesn't add weight to it ;__;
---------------
I actually main Sonic because I like his moveset and playstyle >__>

And also partly because the priority issue isn't as bad as it seems, versus most characters anyway.