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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
I would complain about Sheik's placement, but seeing how this is based on tourney results, I can't really argue.
What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that if they started to do good at tourneys/going to more tourneys with whatever character that is sorta low that they are complaining about, they would go up.
I actually can see Mario moving up a few slots in the future for some strange reason. idk why.
edit: yay 200th post.
What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that if they started to do good at tourneys/going to more tourneys with whatever character that is sorta low that they are complaining about, they would go up.
I actually can see Mario moving up a few slots in the future for some strange reason. idk why.
edit: yay 200th post.
Browny
Smash Hater
No, the list is based on an average of what sbrb members rank each character from 1-15. tourney results are meaningless
RyanPF
Smash Journeyman
How did I know that was posted by a Sonic main before I looked at the icon? XD
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Because Bowser is above Sonic.
M.K
Level 55
I would really like to know (from a current SBR member) where they would draw the line between the "Top, High, Mid, Low, Bottom" system. For instance, would "SS" "S" and "A" tier be Top, "B" and "C" be high, "D" and "E" mid, and the rest low/bottom?
Umby
Smash Master
Sonic isn't allowed to place higher until the Sonic Team stops fucking his games up.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Prove why a character who has a ****ty tournament record should be above a character who has a better record, and has shown notable improvement over time.
How about this? Bowser's potential. Lots of potential but the issue is that like the IC's his weaknesses keep that potential from being utilized.
IC's have incredible potential but that potential cannot be utilized in the face of other characters potential because of their weaknesses.
Awesome desynching abilities and grab game but its ruined because of how easily they are separated and their lack of range.
So if the argument is potential;, why have we yet to see Bowser doing better instead of constantly doing the same?
Why is Bowser doing poorer than Sonic if he is overall a better character?
popularity has nothing to do with it because you don't see many sonic mains and even if you did, if you suck, you suck and you won't do well.
We see Sliq doing well, but we see other Sonic mains do better than Sliq or place more consistently.
Why does everyone go lol sonic sucks, bBowser is better but never seem to find the time to answer as to why he is better? Or bring up reasonable reasons for Bowser's poor tournament record?
Let alone that you, RDK, know that I, am not some random n00b posting on SWF and would at least make some argument rather than just ignore the statement like it was the equivalent of saying "MK is ban worthy."
Let alone there are valid arguments that could explain why Bowser is better "easier to read his abilities on paper" since Sonic's capabilities are largely mindgame potential (though I have an argument against that one.)
I don't expect such a reply from you RDK.
My reasons for thinking Bowser is a better character have little to nothing to do with his tournament placings as of late. It's solely an opinion, and you should take it as such.
By saying I think Sonic sucks, Sonic mains shouldn't take it as an insult; it's not what I intended. But I do have experiences with him, and I know a bit about both characters in a tournament setting, and I will act on my knowledge accordingly. You can take it with a grain of salt or not.
In any case, I still don't see what the big deal is over getting your (as in anyone whining about their character, not you personally) character shifted higher in the tier list. You'd think you people would want your character lower so that everyone and their mother doens't start playing them. Let's be selfish about it.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Fine.
however I do beleive we should acknowledge tournament behavior only because it is one of the few markers that dictate how good a character may or may not be. Its more objective.
Do not worry I am not saying you were insulting Sonic mains.
Meh I am a finicky *******, I can't stand it when things just look inconsistent . I just use Sonic since he is a character whom I feel, cannot be measured purely on paper. I would argue for Link but I have nothing to aid me there =(
M.K
Level 55
****not directed entirely at ShadowLink, but to the mains of Sonic, sorry for any confusion****
Look, alot of other characters are placing well in the tournaments yet still fall to the bottom of the tier list.
The problem with Sonic mains is that all they do is complain and complain about how little everyone else but them knows about their character. Well you know what? There are ALOT of characters like that, but why do I only see you guys complaining about it? Because you refuse to accept a regular list of characters who have shown to be the pinnacle of competitive play.
This list does not change how you play Sonic, nor does it change his priority, his attacks, your playstyle, his recovery, OR his ability to place well in tournaments. You, and all other adamant Sonic mains, need to get over the fact that your character is inferior to others. Maybe you need to get over the fact that nobody realizes Sonic's "potential", I don't know. Ness, Pokemon Trainer, Link, and Falcon mains also say the same things about their charaters, but I don't see any of them rising up and complaining! You know why? Because they have accepted their spot on the tier list and continue to strive to climb higher.
As stated before, the tournaments that Sonic is placing in have been small tournaments. It is a common fact that a tier list is the order of competitive potential at the PINNACLE of competitive play, and the list is known to fluctuate greatly with lesser skilled players. Sonic is placing, yes, but do these placings matter as much as other characters? No.
It's like comparing a worm that moves 1 inch every day to a frog that hops a foot every 12 days. Eventually the worm and frog will be at the same spot, but the worm had to work harder and for the same amount of dignity as a frog, who did not have to exert much pressure at all for that single hop.
Browny
Smash Hater
riiight
when has sonic ever 'shined'? Its taken almost an entire year for people to get over the 'no priority' notion, he was only ever considered a good character in tier lists based off japanese videos the day brawl came out lol
thats some mighty fine evidence youve got there to back up your claimMeta-kirby said:
*nudge*
go on, I dare you to find a single character, just ONE, whos tourney record is at least 10 places higher than their position on the tier list. Sonics is like, 22?
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
>_>
Hey guise.
Sonic just placed fourth at a major tourney.
Smooth Criminal
Hey guise.
Sonic just placed fourth at a major tourney.
Smooth Criminal
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
That's only true of characters higher on the tier list. For low tier characters, they want to be placed higher so that people will actually take them seriously in matchup discussions. I mean seriously can you imagine the kind of responses people get when they try to say a low tier character has an even matchup with a high tier character?
^^This. When the first tier list came out, Sonic mains complained and the response was "well, he has bad tournament results, so he's ranked low."
This time around, we come back with tournament results comparable to that of high tier characters (and I'm not just talking about this month's ranking, this has been an on going trend) and they say "well, we still think he's bad with no reasoning to back up our claims, so we're still going to place him low anyway?"
Browny
Smash Hater
No-one knew the matchup
Scrub tourney
He only beat a pokemon trainer or ganondorf to place highly
Take your pick. It doesnt have to be true, any excuse will do
Scrub tourney
He only beat a pokemon trainer or ganondorf to place highly
Take your pick. It doesnt have to be true, any excuse will do
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215531
>__>
Can't exactly say that for this tourney, DJ.
Smooth Criminal
>__>
Can't exactly say that for this tourney, DJ.
Smooth Criminal
Browny
Smash Hater
/me punishes himself once again for attempting sarcasm on the internet
M.K
Level 55
-_-
Captain Falcon. (37th on the Tier, 19th in the Rankings)
and if you need an opposite for comparison:
Mr Game and Watch (5th on the Tier List, 16th in the Rankings)
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215531
I'm going to sig this and use it in the end of my posts for like a month.
__________
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215531
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
.....Gah, you're just too soft and squishy to hate for periods laster longer than 5 minutes.
I love you too.
Black_Heretic
Smash Lord
this is the most love I've seen in a tier debate since the hug tier list in some tournament thread
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I don't know, the Sonic mains seem to be perky.
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
Was C.Falcon seriously 19 when the list came out? O_o
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
GOD no, not the Sonic mains again... I thought we were done with that topic... -_-"
That's because Sonic Team doesn't want to make Sonic games anymore. <.<"
Titanium Dragon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2004
- Messages
- 247
Because Bowser is a better character than Sonic is. The end?
Putting up tournament results doesn't make a character good.
You have to consider a very wide variety of factors in how good a character is, and tournament results are only one of them, and really, it isn't even a big one if you have good valuation skills.
Its not even potential. Its reality, how things are now.
Just because people don't play a character doesn't mean he isn't good.
Because people who play Bowser well have other, better mains and play Bowser because he's enjoyable, whereas Sonic is mained by more people?
Because more people know how to play against Bowser than Sonic?
What was the last time someone good lost to a Sonic? How about a Bowser?
Fourth place? You mean the third loser?
Look, anyone who relies on tournament results for making a tier list is going to get into trouble. Its not the same thing, as any competent Magic player will tell you; just because a deck does well, doesn't mean it is the best deck.
The reality is that tier lists are a valuation of the characters relative to one another. Its not based on tournament results, because if you're good enough, you can do well in tournaments even if you play a weaker character.
This is hardly surprising. Also, it doesn't mean that Captain Falcon is only that much worse than G&W.
Look: Sonic is Sonic, and the tier list changes nothing. Your whining about it implies that you don't understand what the tier list even is or what it means. "We don't get enough respect" = "I am a troll, please ban me."
pokemon_legend
Smash Journeyman
WOW! fox in melee was like around the top now he is like mid/low or something like that
Umby
Smash Master
I laughed. Shadowlink just asked people to prove that Bowser is better. I'd personally try to oblige I were going to make a statement like that.
What most of the Sonic mains have been trying to convey is not that tournament results make Sonic good (he sucks, we don't try and deny that, or at least I don't), but that how it is always said that tournament results play a factor in how characters rank on the tier list, yet Sonic is getting fucked when it comes time for consideration in that area. Yes, many factors play into it, but when Ankoku's tournament rankings thread is being brought up as often as Sirlin in a L2P thread, people are going to wonder why tournament rankings aren't carrying just a bit more weight, and hints at heavy bias within the SBR-B, something Sonic mains are tired of dealing with.
True, but it might very well say something about a character if there is a lack of usage of that character, considering the competitive nature of Smashers.
That makes no sense. You're now arguing that the enjoyment of playing one character is higher than that of playing another? If that were true, then people definitely would be playing more Bowser than Sonic. Hence your argument is flawed. You also can't truly say that there is a lack of Bowser play just because those players have "better mains." Half the Sonics also use Marth, Lucario, Pikachu or Ice Climbers, so no johns, buddy.
Wait, more people play Sonic, but people have more matchup experience vs Bowser than they do Sonic? Nice.
Probably when Puffball64, _X_, or Mr. 3000 thousand entered into a tourney. I can't speak for Bowser however.
There are two things you have to understand about this. First off, if you take enough relevant tournament results of good, notable players and have them place in noteworthy tournaments, then that can say something relative about a character. I mean if (let's say 10 or 15) people as good as Azen or DSF picked up Sonic and started winning tournaments consistently, that's really going to say something. It could just be the fact that they are extremely good players, but you can't say for a fact that if they were winning consistently that Sonic sucks. This is all hypothetical of course.
The second thing is that tournament rankings should be somewhat influential. Why? Note how the final decision on the list was made by voting. Of course there are sensible people that are considerate of the facts when voting for any given poll, but there's also going to be bias, especially in areas where the voter has a lack of knowledge. People kinda want that to balance out with the consideration of tournament results.
Is it really that much to ask for respect? A lot of points brought up in this thread about Sonic do get completely ignored due to lack of it. I lost count of how many times it's been explained that there aren't "millions of people playing Sonic."
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Dr Mario was on the high end of the tier list in melee. Does that mean people should be satisfied?
No but it is one of the factors that do aid in providing a more objective view on a characters capability.
By no means am I saying it is the only factor, but it should be looked into, especially when the tournament factor is being factored in for other characters.
Never said it was the only factor.
I mentioned others as well.
Sonic is not played often either. At most, you will see 3 sonic mains in a tournament. That is not alot at all in comparison to other characters, one of which is among his worst matchups.
Let alone if we are going by how things are now, it makes even less sense to place a character who has not reflected his capabilities higher than a character who has been reflecting his capability.
Popularity is hardly the issue.
If you suck you will not place well. Even if you have 20 sonic mains in a 32 person tournament, if all 20 Sonic mains suck, they will not place.
Let alone Sonic is not a popular character in tournaments..
If Bowser is less popular than Sonic, then why would people have more experience playing against Bowser?
Obviously the argument of not knowing how to play Sonic makes little sense when bringing up Sonic's popularity.
Let alone good players do not allow themselves to lose an entire set just because they were surprised.
Considering how well Sonic has been placing, as well as how often he has placed, it can hardly be said that all players have thorough knowledge on Bowser, who is less popular, but have absolutely no knowledge on a character that is more popular, and been placing more often.
I already addressed it rearlier that tournament results are part of a factor. Why do you think I am saying it is the only factor when I brought up an argument concerning their potential reflecting upon their behavior relative to each other?
Of course tournament results aren't the basis of a tier list, otherwise, Marth would be number 1 and Fox would be 4th or 5th in the melee tier list.
Other arguments other than tournament placing have been mentioned, however, tournament placement does factor in considering it provides some notion of how well a character does at high level of play.
Yes you run into issues such as mindgames and the like, at which point we have other factors which also indicate that Sonic does perform better than Bowser.
Its very inconsistent, why should a character like Falco be pushed up higher because of his tournament results but a character like Sonic should not?
Really? So making a logical argument concerning the inconsistency of the tier list is whining?
Explaining why a character is better than is dictated and the contradiction when compared to other characters is whining? Or trolling?
Blanket statements are silly.
The issue concerning the tierlist isn't only because people feel their character is better, that is not the issue for me, the issue is that when you compare Sonic to other characters above him, there is incredible inconsistency.
Samus and Bowser being one of the better examples.
Being better than noted isn't the issue, not for me anyway, the issue is that it is inconsistent.
The tierlist in itself is fine after B and C tier.
Right after wards though it appears based on opinion rather than the potential of a character, hence why I bring up Sonic because he is the obvious example.
Tierlists represent the potential of a character relative to others, fact of the matter is, Sonic has shown that potential to be greater than a number of characters and shown improvement to match these claims. So what makes Sonic so special that a character like Samus and Bowser, characters who tournament wise do poorly, but also match up wise and potential wise as well?
As I mentioned earlier, concerning Sonic's potential, it is hard to measure on paper, but because his abilities are so very much geared towards mindgames and the like, should be factored and considering his tournament results, should be looked into in greater detail rather than simply brushing it off and coming up with reasoning such as "popularity." which are flawed arguments.
Sonic is Sonic, it is true that the tier list doesn't change it. After all the tierlist isn't perfect since regardless of how objective you attempt to be, it will take a lot of time and work to be fully accurate, however, if we have several notable inconsistencies why should they be ignored repeatedly?
High tier characters don't often have this issue tier placement because they are more solid, more easily judged cause of how good they are, but things get muddled once you hit mid tier.
However, if we have the ability to make ma more accurate judgement and yet do not do so in spite of the evidence, it cannot be said that the tierlist is being consistent, the method by which it was formed reflects this (though to be fair it was one of the few reliable methods to form it).
Are you seriously debating that Sonic > Bowser? I don't think so. They should however be in the same tier: low-mid. Sonics tourney rankings are rather impressive on the paper but idk how much that means. Has Sonic ever won in a major tourney with lots of high level players? If so I'd like to see that because Sonic players always seem to refer to the tournament placings as their main argument. It's not easy to interpret tourney results though as we can see in another example: Captain Falcon.
On the paper I'd say Bowser looks stronger but he's so undeplayed that we can't say for sure. With the exception of King Dedede he doesn't seem to have **** match-up's while I always hear Soninc players complaining about Wario, Meta and Marth. Bowser has few good match-up's but he has reasonable chances to win all of them minus D3. Idk much about Sonic match-up's but I doubt he does that well vs Falco (Bowser can 0 death him), MK or Snake. Bowser has a Chaingrab, a decent projectile, low % KO moves, a disgustingly underrated recovery, lives forever, good range, outrageous priority...
...I'm not saying Bowser is better for sure or that Sonic will never be above him but atm I'd say Bowser is higher if only a few spots.
That said I can understand Sonic players being upset by the typical ignorance of the SBR - not only in this miserably innacurate tier list but also in the weekly character discussion which once again proved that the SBR has a few scrubs too much among them. Sonic does have things going for him: he can punish extremely well, has an amazing dash grab, a nice chasing game with tech chase and upB and massive durability (midweight + pretty much perfect recovery). So putting Sonic that low is still innacurate of course but that doesn't mean that Sonic players should lose their minds about this issue and start mentioning all the characters Sonic should be above. I think saying Bowser > Sonic is accurate right now but that doesn't mean it'll stay like this.
Besides, there are bigger flaws on the tier list than this, especially since Sonic - whether you like it or not - will not be a major force in tournament play, unlike Olimar who remains horribly underrated, while G&W and Marth get more credit than they deserve (especially G&W...Marth is only a few spots too high...nut G&W has done nothin to prove he's top5 in like half a year). Not to mention the fact that MK and Snake have their own tiers - MK being two tiers above Falco or D3 is clearly wrong and not even the SBR can justify such an obvious mistake.
On the paper I'd say Bowser looks stronger but he's so undeplayed that we can't say for sure. With the exception of King Dedede he doesn't seem to have **** match-up's while I always hear Soninc players complaining about Wario, Meta and Marth. Bowser has few good match-up's but he has reasonable chances to win all of them minus D3. Idk much about Sonic match-up's but I doubt he does that well vs Falco (Bowser can 0 death him), MK or Snake. Bowser has a Chaingrab, a decent projectile, low % KO moves, a disgustingly underrated recovery, lives forever, good range, outrageous priority...
...I'm not saying Bowser is better for sure or that Sonic will never be above him but atm I'd say Bowser is higher if only a few spots.
That said I can understand Sonic players being upset by the typical ignorance of the SBR - not only in this miserably innacurate tier list but also in the weekly character discussion which once again proved that the SBR has a few scrubs too much among them. Sonic does have things going for him: he can punish extremely well, has an amazing dash grab, a nice chasing game with tech chase and upB and massive durability (midweight + pretty much perfect recovery). So putting Sonic that low is still innacurate of course but that doesn't mean that Sonic players should lose their minds about this issue and start mentioning all the characters Sonic should be above. I think saying Bowser > Sonic is accurate right now but that doesn't mean it'll stay like this.
Besides, there are bigger flaws on the tier list than this, especially since Sonic - whether you like it or not - will not be a major force in tournament play, unlike Olimar who remains horribly underrated, while G&W and Marth get more credit than they deserve (especially G&W...Marth is only a few spots too high...nut G&W has done nothin to prove he's top5 in like half a year). Not to mention the fact that MK and Snake have their own tiers - MK being two tiers above Falco or D3 is clearly wrong and not even the SBR can justify such an obvious mistake.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
"You dare to challenge commonly accepted idea!?"
Of course gheb why shouldn't I?
Or rather, why shouldn't I with the reasons provided.
Give me reason why I shouldn't doubt the fact that a character like Bowser who is doing much worse than Sonic overall should be considered better.
I provided good reasoning as to why such thoughts would come up.
When was the last time that Bowser has won a tournament with lots of high level players?
how consistent has Bowser been in large tournaments? The data is within ankoku's topic, while Sonic hasn't won neither has Bowser and Sonic has been placing higher, more consistently in large high level tournaments.
Which is what I refer to.
Neither character are expected to win, but since Sonic is placing higher, more often than Bowser, it should be looked into more deeply.
Sonic users complain about everything. (true stuff)
Wario isn't as bad as is said nor is Marth which both the boards showed. He has a disadvantage but he has a good chance of winning.
Metaknight is really the only character that has managed to lay claim as a truly difficult matchup for Sonic (hard counter) while other matchups do give him reasonable chance of success. The problem though is as you and I both agree, Sonic's game on paper isn't as good as Bowser.
Sonic's potential goes towards outside of paper, so much so that I do feel we should consider it somewhat (for example being able to grab Marth and Ike after they Fair.)
Bowser has a CG and a 0-death on Falco (and I think MK) the issue being, he needs toa ctually grab them. Grabbing Falco or Metaknight is like trying to grab Wario. Their capability to avoid grabs makes it a small factor.
Its similar to the IC's, great you have a 0-death on every character, but the weaknesses with the character prevent that potential from being put to actual use in the face of other characters.
Alot of character can space Bowser and avoid his incredible grab options.
SO while Bowser looks great with his OOS and grab options, a large number of characters can simply avoid it and poke him to death.
Of course which is why I am arguing for the change, simply because overall, Sonic performs that much better than Bowser. It isn't as if their performance is very similar otherwise, I could simply ignore it. It just appears very inconsistent. Especially when I look at Samus.
As I said earlier, I can see why people would think Bowser>Sonic, but I do feel that other factors, push it towards Sonic being a better character overall or at least warranting better placement.
Concerning how much play the character sees, yes BOwser doesn't see alot of play, but neither does Sonic. At most, in small tourneys you'll see 2 Sonic mains.
IN larger ones 3 maybe even 4.
Yes Bowser sees less play but the amount of play the characters see isn't very large in terms of whom sees more usage.
Its only because of their record overall that I feel Sonic is better, simply because he just isn't hindered as much as Bowser is.
on paper, Bowser is better than Sonic currently, but I think overall, Sonic can perform better than Sonic and that his tournament record, matchups and gameplay reflect it.
I can also speak about Samus if you would like as well vs Bowser since they both appear stuck in a rut which I can use to fuel Bowser being lower.
but I bring up Sonic since its easier.
Meh it doesn't bother me, I just like when things are consistent, I don't feel that character A has their tournament results factored in, but character Bm, C and D shouldn't. It is inconsistent.
I agree. Sonic can perform better than Sonic.
Oh, wait, why are people still bringing up the non-existent large mass of Sonic mains that are ravaging tournaments, forcing Sonic placings, and implying the (also non-existent) supposed matchup knowledge that should come with such a "popular" character?
I thought we went over this at least 10 times by like, page 50.
oh, and for the lulz:
Yes, the third loser who had to go through who-knows-how-many good/notable players, numbers of supposed disadvantaged matchups and d-tilts, with a character that is apparently very popular in tournaments that people know how to fight (right? lots of Sonic mains out there), and has like, enough priority and telegraphed moves to be easily shut down by jabs and retreating aerials.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Has any low tier character ever won in a major tournament with lots of high level players? Wait a minute, how many of such tournaments even exist for brawl?
And although I can't find an example of him winning (much like every other low tier and even mid tiers), he did place top4 at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215531.
That's got a few high level players placing under him, unless you want to say that Dojo, Santi, and Hylian are bad. lol (btw, I don't know much about brawl players, so if I missed some really good ones I'm sorry).
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,861
- NNID
- RicardoAvocado
Lol Sonic's xD Go go go go 
Question - will the system used to construct this tier list be used in the next one coming out on June 5th?
Question - will the system used to construct this tier list be used in the next one coming out on June 5th?
I'm not sure about some of these people's reputations within the Brawl community (for skill or otherwise), but I highlighted names that I know, somehow or another.
This isn't to say that Espy actually fought them - it'd be up for the little puffball to say who he went up against, but I highly doubt that a mass of Sonic
Anyway, I'd really much rather leave out Sonic's tournament placings [in terms of using them to affect tier placement] until May-June.
As for now, all we want is acknowledgement from people who are otherwise ignorant of the goings on of the Sonic metagame, so people at least make an attempt to learn the matchup.
And if people learn the matchup and the now-renowned Sonic mains can still either place top 8 or at least towards the upper-middle part of actual tournament rankings (within tournaments, not Ankoku's list), then we'll be able to get a better idea of how good or bad Sonic really is.
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