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The Official Ike Video Critique Thread

Ussi

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Honestly if he doesn't like BF he's trying to just fight a player's inexperience on other stages at this point..
 

theeboredone

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From my tourney one week ago, Ike vs Marth. I dropped a lot of stuff game 2... I think I got overconfident or at least too relaxed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbYqY5fZ3zI&feature=g-all-u&context=G2958666FAAAAAAAAAAA

I'll post my other sets from the other tournament when they're uploaded.
Just some stuff from Game 1...Not good at the Marth MU, so I'll just give lil tidbits.

First of all, if you gonna try to take on Marth off stage, always be ready to tech. Find a way to practice it, cause both stocks could have been preventable, especially the first one. Counter gives you that one second to realize you need to tech.

Second, I know you have a more offensive oriented game, but you gotta take spacing into account. He beat you to the punch so to speak everytime. We all know Marth wants to get in close, and get his aerial out because it comes out faster than ours. So either try baiting more of that, or try to release your aerial half a second earlier to beat his.

I'm sort of surprised he didn't try to gimp you when you tried to aether back on stage, but maybe he does it in the other matches.

First match, are you using analog + A for b-airs or are you using the c-stick? The reason I say that is because you got caught in his CG to start the match, because you went into him. Just stick with retreating ones against DDD. Also, don't air dodge back into him after he gets you off stage...that's just asking to be grabbed again. I'm surprised he didn't try to gimp you off stage there. With that being said, you should be willing to punish him with aether. That early F-smash is a bit pointless as well, given how much damage DDD has racked up, and also it's a high risk, high reward move that isn't worth it vs DDD.

Footstooling is fun, but at :40, you didn't need to go for the second one. You had him where you wanted. He would be recovering, and you could punish him with an up-air. I'd also question his gimping skills. He got you with a b-air when you tried to aether back up, but that's about it. You also botched your QD cause you should have snapped the ledge instead of going right back into him. He also should have killed you a bit earlier on your first stock, cause he could have snapped onto the ledge when you aethered. Also, poor DI when he f-threw you.

2:38, you had him with the QD to up-tilt. Why did you aether? 3:30, never jump off the edge to a fast fall d-air. Easy to see coming, and leaves you open. 3:40, should have killed you by snapping the ledge when you aethered. 4:28, should have aether spiked him. Could have set up for an up-air kill when he recovered. Before you died, I had no clue wth you were doing.

Overall, I'd say the DDD was lacking in skill too. He only used up-tilt once on you when he had several other opportunities. Know that it's a good kill move for DDD on stage along with b-air.

Also WTH? You didn't do a single jab cancel on this guy. DDD is fat, once you got him in a jab, just jab, jab, jab. You can rack up about 30 damage that way. If you throw him or jab him off stage, he will try to recover high. Free aether damage as well. That's around ideally 45 damage. DDDs are prone to being aethered when near the edge. Overall, use that, and some more f-air to space DDD out. You got CG'ed too much.
 

CRUSH_

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Yeah the guy I was playing against isn't a DDD main. Wow though, I really didn't do any jabbing? I've got no excuse for that one lol. Shoulda noticed that and uploaded a different replay.

Using analog + A for bairs. That whole AD back into him from off-stage is a really persistent habit of mine and I'm glad you helped me see how self-destructive it is. Also when I do that he punishes my landings with hits if he's using other characters.

When he's out of jumps and uses his upB I typically Usmash him on his way up. The Uair kill is a little harder to pull off. Should I do that all the time? I know he'll see it coming but what can he do about it? Can he cancel the upB at any point along the path?
 

Heartstring

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Just watched as much of it as i could. Your game isn't too bad however against a character like D3 you REALLY need to play more carefully. At one point you threw out a random Dash attack which whiffed and you ended up being chaingrabbed for it.

And when it comes to edgeguarding-although it looks nice and flashy-footstooling isn't the best option. You would be better off using F-air for edgeguarding, because jesus look at the size of that hitbox
Speaking of fair/safety. Doing a fair on someone who is grounded tends to be pretty unsafe, due to the landing lag, its great against another aerial opponent though

bored covered pretty much everything though, keep at it buddy :)
 

CRUSH_

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Thanks G~P!
this is my first hearing about the fair on a grounded opponent thing. I was thinking it was pretty safe when spaced properly. I guess it depends on how quick the other character can get to me
 

Nysyarc

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Yah it really depends on the character. Characters with good OoS options in from of them, good grab range or high ground speed you shouldn't be using Fair while they're grounded. Any character that doesn't fit this description you can Fair all day as long as you space them well.

That said, DDD is pretty slow on the ground so despite his grab range, you can get away with a Fair on his shield as long as it is spaced pretty close to perfectly. You need to be aware of what he will do after you Fair though; figure out what that is (dash grab attempt, roll behind you, throw a Waddle Doo, etc...) then bait it and punish accordingly.


:248:
 

CRUSH_

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How about the other matches? The Marth main that I practice with wins like 80% of the time
 

Heartstring

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Well Marth is an uphill fight to begin with, I personally dont use ike for this matchup, but you would have to space like a boss to get it going, He's fast on the ground average in the air but has pretty long range on all of his attacks so that makes up for it. Youll want to keep him off you at all times, best of luck XD
 

Blubolouis

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Thanks for the input Bored, I'll study this set again with your remarks in mind. Anyone else got tips ?

Could I get suggestions on these two sets, from the other tournament ? Not necesarily from Bored or Nys, anyone who could help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ou8YGz85q4&feature=relmfu vs Myollnir (PT)
This set, I got lucky. I failed to adapt fast enough a lot of times. I jumped into Ivysaur's Fair and stuff like that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlRPywF0IjU&feature=uploademail vs Okals (ZSS/Marth)
This set I definitly could have won. There's only one marth-ike here, but the 2 missing matches were marth-ike too, and I made an unusual amount of mistakes, suicides, and poor punishes (unusual even for me).

@Crush I know the Marth match-up a bit, I'll try to look at your vids.
 

C.J.

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Watching your matches vs Danny and Okals (Marth) the first two things that jump out at me are your rolls and your okis. You seem to get punished for your rolls far more often than not. Meanwhile when you dash away to return to a neutral position you tend to have a higher success of managing that safely. Your okis (grounded wake-ups) are always so quick. The Marths are really aggressive and they keep looking for the next attack opportunity. Whenever you're knocked onto the ground you always either tech it or get up/roll away immediately. You never just wait for him to get closer so he's more committed to going a specific way. You also never use a get-up attack when Marth is obviously rushing into you carelessly.

If Marth whiffs DS and doesn't manage to land before getting hit, the next time he lands he has the full DS lag. So at 29 seconds in, after you managed to hit him with uair twice, you should have focused on covering his landing more. You would have had a free tilt/utilt (resetting the situation) or smash if you read it well enough (read: if you're really greedy). After getting hit by the second one, he obviously was most worried about putting distance between the two of you, so going up for another uair seems like a worse option than covering his awful laggy landing.

I know bored already said it, but the risk/reward of going against Marth offstage like that really isn't worth it. Higher up where you have the ability to make it back onto the stage, edgeguarding Marth is fine. But at that height, the risk/reward just seems heavily skewed in Marth's favor. That + teching.

When you're in the air with Marth, your fair outranges his by a lot. Make sure you space it out so you can abuse that.

When you do fair a grounded Marth, you have to be sure to retreat it. Otherwise grab and fsmash and things.

Learn the timing for ledgedrop->jump back onto the ledge. If Marth DB stalls, you should have enough time to gimp that almost every time. It's just hard. And when you do it, make sure you're holding up (so you go onto the stage instead of into it in case you get hit by the weak hit of DS) or ready to tech it. If he doesn't DB stall, then this is obviously a terrible idea. Just make sure you react quickly.

DB3 on shield is extremely unsafe. Falco/Olimar can usmash it OoS, every non-tether can grab it (other than like... Ganon) and actually I think there might be one tether who can grab it. If the 3rd hit of DB hits your shield, take the offensive there and punish him for it. I know grab is guaranteed. If I'm looking at these numbers correctly (I think I am), the soonest that DB4 can come out after DB3 is ~12 frames. This even gives you enough time to shield drop-> jab for a really nice punish. Just act really quickly.

Marth's fsmash is -32ish on shield. You can't let that go unpunished. -25ish after shield drop. If the fsmash is badly spaced, and you're quick enough, it's actually possible for you to fsmash him back. Ftilt/grab/jab are probably better choices though.
 

Blubolouis

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@C.J I can't believe I didn't thank you before for your critique. Please consider it done.

About marth's fsmash, it has a big shieldpush and ****, I always screw up my punishes on this one. I also tried ftilt and more often than not, it doesn't hit because ike slides too far away in his shield.

This is me versus a Link we never see in tournaments and smashfests mainly because of his parents. I have no idea what I'm doing '-'

MM n°1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf-wWaWkUDw&feature=relmfu
MM n°2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApWgpE-l2PM&feature=relmfu

From what I see, I had way too much trouble to get in on him, I punished some things ridiculously bad, and I got surprised by some mu specific things. Link's stuff is actually pretty safe on shield (or am I just that bad ?)
Consider me a noob in this match-up please !
 

Teh Brettster

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I watched the first set.

You did NOT trust your shield enough. And if I had one YEN (that is a tiny unit of currency) for every time you jumped forward into a Zair or any other attack, I could buy a private island and never have to work in my life.
You also need to understand that any time Link is above you and he has a bomb, that bomb WILL drop into you.
Also, a few more in-depth tips:
--When you're in, stay in. Nair (spaced well) is pretty safe on Link's shield, and if you figure out how to play it, jab can be too (though that's sort of a guessing game).
--When you're trying to get in, but your shield is running low, go back out and take time to regenerate your shield. Link won't be pressuring it down while you're away. Just air dodge stuff until your shield is back. Then go back in.
--And by the way, walk more. Don't ALWAYS dash, because you can't shield during a dash start-up animation... and shielding -right- on reaction time is important in this match-up.

Again, you approached by short hop (+Nair) SOOOO much. You also jumped from the ledge every time, and you never mixed up your timing on that. Mix up your ledge get-up and your approach. You'll eat about 10,000 fewer Zairs and Fairs that way.

One thing that you can do... if you KNOW Link is going to pull out a bomb and you KNOW you're at perfect spacing, you can dash attack-- that's a free approach. It has to be a read, though. You can't react to it or he'll shield it.

You should play around with walkoff counter to Link's recovery if you can't find any other way to hit him.

Oh by the way... You went for so many "Hail Mary" spikes... you should really only do that if it's a read.
And you need to improve your water play on Delfino. There were a good 3 times Link should have been dead for sure. Do not underestimate the power of Aether. Use it... no matter WHERE you are or WHERE they are. Unless you do something horribly wrong, there's nothing bad that can come of it. It WILL put your opponent in the water. And if it doesn't, you're still safe because you can just use Aether again.

Link's stuff.. safe on shield.. yeah, I guess. But you tried to punish a lot of stuff early, and when you hoped to punish something with shield push (Fsmash), you would immediately dash in, which leaves you unable to shield very well. Don't worry toooo much about punishing. A good Link will leave him self relatively unpunishable.
Just get in-- it doesn't have to be extremely fast. He'll run out of space on the stage eventually if you just keep walking to him and shielding/air dodging. Then bring it into a jab/grab game. When you have him in jabs, keep on him.

Not sure if I really had anything else in mind. If you have any specific questions, ask me. I'll do my best to answer.
 

smashkng

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Link is one of my favourite MUs and I know it pretty well from playing and tons of Links online and against Izaw.
-Link's options are more limited when he has a Bomb. Like, when he shields one of your attacks when has it makes him only be able to punish with like 8% damage from a Bomb. And walk off Fairs is avery effective edge guarding against Link, not always you have to double jump offstage in order to edge guard Link, his Up b (which Kaji was using every single time) is pretty easy to intercept with the Fair.
-Maybe you could have gone more for shield grab instead of jab OoS. It's slightly faster as an OoS. You can shield grab between jabs if he doesn't space them well in case you didn't know. You can also shield grab Link's Zair if he doesn't space it well and doesn't try to fast fall it (which in most cases he won't do, though you can still shield grab him if he doesn't spot dodge or roll in that case, again, when unspaced).
-You should fast fall your Nairs better so that Link won't be able to Up b OoS (it's 11 frames slow). I didn't see much Fair spacing either which can be thrown outside Link's Up b range (considering the fact that Kaji was going much for it). After Link misses the Up b then you can punish him with almost anything. I also think you should keep in mind that Link's fastest attack is like 7 frames (jab), so if you think he'll attack at the same time as you, you'll be the one who'll be able to attack first.
Rest of your mistakes are covered by Teh Brettster. You did pressure him pretty well as you should be doing as much as possible in this MU.
 

Teh Brettster

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I disagree with the walkoff Fair. Link should be covering his recovery with a boomerang, which would leave you unable to simply walkoff Fair.
But even if he doesn't do that, you should just spike Link out of his recovery. And if he's at a range at which Fair is a better option that Dair, Link won't make it back anyway due to his awful recovery. You'd be better off just grabbing the ledge.

Oh and also, about eruption edgeguard, which you tried a few times: It doesn't work. Certainly not against Link.
 

smashkng

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Ike's Fair has more horizontal range even in the hitbox below Ike. It allows us to hit Link from further distance than Dair. That can help hitting Link just before his Up b auto-sweetspots the ledge. It is depends on the situation, but I don't find that useless against Link. I go for walk-off Dair when I predict the Link is going to Tether recover, which Kaji was never doing.
 

Nysyarc

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If Link is recovering from low enough off-stage that he'll auto-sweetspot the ledge, just edge hog. Even if you slightly misjudge it and he manages to barely land on the stage, drop down and Aether for a free ~20%. You could do an Uair too but unless his DI is terrible, Link can survive to pretty ridiculous percents. Which is basically why I don't think walk-off Fair is very effective against Link.

If you can catch him off-guard with it and he DIs poorly, it's a stock. However, he's more likely to DI it pretty well considering he has no reason to be holding his control stick backwards while trying to recover. Thus all you're really doing is adding a bit of damage and giving him another shot at making it back... maybe even a better shot if he DId it really well.

Tl;dr, mixing up Dair and edge-hogging will cover pretty much all of his options, no need for Fair IMO.


:248:
 

Blubolouis

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Thanks for the awesome help, guys.

I got to play this Link today. I tried to play at a slower pace and to stop running into things. It went better overall, but I think he still has the advantage.

My main concern for now is that I did a really poor job at edgeguarding him. I guess that comes from the fact that I'm not used to link's recovery yet (didn't know he had one :c ).

I'll be back for more !
 

san.

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I just throw aerials out against Link. The only thing that helps him a lot against us is his survivability and momentum cancel. It's better to pressure him early offstage when he's recovering, force him to commit to an air dodge or something, and damage him with aether or an onstage punish.
 

Heartstring

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Well see here's how i deal with rainbow cruise:
don't put it on the stage list

hope this helps :)
But it all serious, I personally try to keep the high ground if i ever play on RC
 

XLR8TION

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Lol nice suggestion, now I'll really be the best tourney host ever. Keeping high ground eh? Never thought about it. Im just trying not to fall off while playing the mu at the same time really.
 

san.

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As long as you DI up when you're getting hit, you're not going to get gimped or anything. During the rising part, go up quickly and it should be fine.
 

Ussi

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Camp away when the stage rises up, impossible to get gimped during the top and boat phase where Ike can do pretty well.

Also was this wifi? Cause why else would there be a 3rd person..
 

Ussi

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Then my advice is pray to whatever you believe in that your internet doesn't lag spike you at the wrong moment
 

smashkng

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@1:29 First match If the other Ike charges Fsmash, either wait outside its range and punish its ending lag or shield it and you can punish that with at least dash attack OoS as Ike.
2:27 1st match you could have edge hogged.
2:45 1st match you could punished that so much better, even with Fsmash.

@ 3:25 second match never go that to throw out an aerial from a ledge drop.

@0:36 third match don't side b to get onstage if the opponent is at mid range.
@2:26 third match Bthrow to DA doesn't work on such a heavy character with that quick falling like Ike at 40%, you have wait until around 50-60% before that works on them.

Also I didn't see you use nearly much Nair as it should be used, the aerial that should be used the most because it's a really safe move if spaced properly and has less lag than Fair. Then I also noticed you messing up technical things a lot, so work on your tech skill too.
 

Teh Brettster

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I don't even know how to critique that one. Because everything that was done (I only watched game 1) was completely random.

If I wanted to beat you in a game, I'd just walk up close, wait for the random attack, and punish. Game over. Or maybe I'd wait for you to try to be flashy with your movement SO much that you kill yourself (which you actually did.. I mean wtf, stop that if you don't understand what you're doing).

When you jab someone, don't do half the combo and then run away. Following up jabs is why Ike wins games.
Learn to hit another Ike out of Aether with Fair, Bair.
Slow down and think about what your opponent is doing. I saw tons of fun-looking reverse Usmashes and whatnot, but they were all at strange times. Whenever either of you hit with a smash, it was because the other one just kept jumping around doing *pick an aerial* instead of either reading or reacting.

tl;dr:
READ, REACT, THINK. You are just jumping around trying to look cool and that doesn't get you far with any character.
 

- rko -

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Thnx for da input guyzzz, I really appreciate it. But after a tourney yesterday I came to realize that I should juss stick to Mario cuz he juss suits me best. I'll take the advice anyway for if I wanna second Ike or sumtin tho.......
 

san.

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It's harder to critique videos where you dominate but I'll just give some small tips.



Nice DI on most of his attacks, especially when recovering.
Nice dash attack of the double laser if he does it too close.



When jabbing, I recommend mixing manual A tabs with holding A. You can get combat walks easily on a spacey like Falco just by holding A and turning his good DI into a mistake.

I also suggest finding more up-close defensive measures other than spot dodge. Whenever you got close and wanted to get away, you spot dodged most of the time. Retreating bair, or even dashing away can be other alternatives you can use.

Watch out with using the laggier ground moves when your opponent is low %s. At low %s, you want to get attacks with good followups like nair, dthrow, and jab. Learn to prioritize what best moves to use so you can keep laying the damage on in the future.
 

CRUSH_

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Thanks a bunch San. I just watched the video again and I dunno how it happened but it stopped at 2:10. I thought I recorded the whole match. Oh well, I still got my critique out of it.
 

Heartstring

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My most recent recorded set has just been uploaded. Anything that you spot is welcome, AFAIK all of the matches are good examples for critique
Also, I'm already aware That I nair onto shield an insane amount, particularly landing infront on olimar...also that i rolled alot :B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuuKtSymu1k
thanks in advance!
 
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