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The Official Ike Video Critique Thread

Teh Brettster

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That Olimar was terrible, man.

Okay.
1) You can't recover with QD against Oli.
2) You can't use aerial approaches every time. Against any half-decent Olimar, you'll get interrupted EVERY TIME.
3) Soooo many unpunished rolls. If that's me playing Denti, I'm Usmashed or grabbed EVERY time.
4) Every once in a while, try grabbing Olimar when you're up close-- he may be waiting to OoS Usmash.
5) Just so you know, almost every time you did Bthrow -> DA, you should have been Usmashed, whether it be from a shield or from a whistle.
6) Don't let your back face Olimar. You can't hope to do anything to him. Your only option is Bair which WILL miss and WILL be punished.
7) When you do approach with aerials, it better be on a Nair with pixel-perfect spacing.
8) You never get to Fsmash an Olimar. Especially not when he's on the ledge and getting up. He got hit? He's bad.
9) Taunting while 2.5 stocks down is silly.

Oh and remember the usefulness of unexpected DA as an approach against Olimar. Denti knows about it, so it's really hard to do against him (annoyingly so-- PS to Usmash all day), but even so, if I read him, I'm in with it. So against a normal Oli, it's going to be a great tool.
 

Heartstring

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things i learnt: I'm terrible :B

Cheers though, I figured a lot of **** out myself, but extras are all good
And i thought olimar couldnt whistle bthrow>DA if we buffered it? It would be why he went so low from DA most of the time
 

Teh Brettster

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I thought people couldn't shield Bthrow->DA if we did it right.
But that Oli did. (And didn't punish.)

Sometimes we mess up, sometimes we don't get the perfect % for it, since it varies by character.
 

Heartstring

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I did it too early at time when he shielded it, I knew that and did it anyway cause im stupid
Anyway, Cheers for the help. and err...cheers for not sugarcoating it XD
 

Blubolouis

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So I take it we can approach and hit olimar's shield with nair without getting grabbed automatically ? I usually stick to fair (and get predictable).
 

Heartstring

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It was why i was trying to cross him up with it so he couldnt just shieldgrab, But any decent olimar is just going to usmash me out of it
 

san.

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Also be aware of your jab options when you get close to Oli. The ideal would be his back facing you, but that will rarely happen. If Olimar tries any ground option (except shield) and you're close enough, you can jab it without too much worry.

If Olimar is shielding and you jab1, jab2 can hit Oli out of grab every time. Only spaced jab1->jab1 will ever be able to hit Oli again when he tries to grab, so that's also a rarity. Even so, you have to make the Oli guess whether you will do the jab2 or try something else and you have to guess if the Oli will try to grab. What Oli will do highly depends upon whether he has been interrupted by Ike's jab a lot before.

Remember, the longer Oli shields and you keep pressuring with jab, the safer another jab on shield becomes.

Oli also has an ideal height to get grabbed by us, so pivot grab his landing covers an absurdly large area against him (use in conjunction with nair and simple fast fall feints).
 

Noge

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Hi guys, somone recorded my Ike in two videos from a local tournament, the vids are on fast motion and havent a great quality, so I supose u will be not able to get an accurate critique. But anyway I'm quite bad, then sure u will be able to give me some advice.

We were playing stagestriking with the japanesse stagelist (FD, BF, SV), it was a local tournament without any really good player, the best players are that three i fight on the video who are more or less on my level.

Winners Semis vs Zelda/DK (I loose, u will see my troll MK too xD), I dont play in the second set of the vid(Wolf/Kirby vs Zelda/DK)
My opponent doesnt uses DK normally, I didnt expect that and I doesnt know this matchup, could somone explain a bit about what i had to do vs him?

Loosers Semis vs Ness (I win), and Loosers Final vs Wolf/Falco(I loose)
I did quite bad in my last match vs Falco, where I didnt get to fight his sideB. I was trying to punish him with Fsmash like how I did in the second match, but I was failing again and again... After the game I got to the conclusion I should use Usmash instead of Fsmash to punish it, is it a good way?


PD: If u dont understand what people says in the videos its because they are speaking spanish or catalan.
 

*Cam*

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I figured Ryker would want critique on his Ike, and seeing what he said in the social thread confirms my suspicions. I'm going to go ahead and beat Ryker to the punch because I just finished uploading them, but he's not always with internet access to check on it. He'll thank me later if he has to wait less time for a response. These are from a tournament last Saturday.

rIKEr :ike: vs. Elev8 :popo:
rIKEr :ike: vs. Hichez :lucario:

Those are the two main ones that I'd wager he wants looked at. Here's some others that he had from the tournament.

rIKEr :ike: vs. AML?! :gw:
rIKEr :ike: vs. TY :falco:
rIKEr :ike: vs. Player-1 :diddy:
rIKEr :ike: vs. Spade :marth:
 

Teh Brettster

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Noge, sorry, those matches can hardly be critiqued.

Ryker:

vs ICs-- Your first stock. Duuuude. You separated them and then when Popo was right next to you, you ignored. Always hit the player away before you chase Nana. You got hit for it, and you don't need me to tell you that you double jumped into an iceblock and forgot to reverse Aether. Each mistake snowballed into the next and it killed you.

When ICs have momentum and run at you, they're usually looking for a spot dodge or a roll. Jump instead, especially on BF where you have different options of where to go after a jump. You can slowly neutralize the momentum that way, simply by not getting grabbed.

At 3:30-something, you separated them and then charged a smash when Nana wasn't running into it. In that moment, you should have hit Nana from the right platform off the stage with Bair, then been ready to intercept Popo on his way to save her. You CAN charge a smash when they are separated, but that's only if Nana is running hopelessly into it and Popo is in no position to stop it.

Generally-- Way too much empty double jump. I mean that's great for getting them to approach and you punishing it. But when you're doing it because you're scared and they know where you're going, it's not that good. Because then you're not really keeping space. You're just frantically running and they're catching up.
I even saw that first time you went up against solo Popo. The advantage vs a single Ice Climber is pretty profound for Ike. Go for it.
 

Teh Brettster

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vs Lucario-- I'm sure you know of your technical mistakes, but I'll remind you that fullhop Nair is a mistake against a grounded opponent. Also please work on the ledge-drop to air dodge back onto the stage. You nearly lost your first stock in what would have been an extremely embarrassing manner.

Never follow up Nair with a roll. If you think they're going to come back and attack you before you can Bair, Utilt, jab, or grab, put your shield up. Then punish with a jab or what have you.

Remember horizontal momentum canceling does not involve any aerials. Air dodge to jump if you must cancel horizontal momentum.

You got Lucario into a couple of jabs, and... you need to get a feel for how quickly and slowly you can mix up jab combos, because you never really did reset your jab combo, though you did try to follow up with other stuff when jabbing more would have worked out better.

Second stock. Aether was wayyy too early. You may have killed yourself there. And when Lucario jumps near you, hold your shield. Next time you play against one in friendlies, hold your shield until AFTER he's done attacking. Overshoot it on purpose. Then you'll have a better feel for shielding against him.

You approached with Fair... more than once... and didn't make a successful read of him jumping to you. Meaning punished.

He was all rolls and Fsmash at the end, and you never caught on to either, except one whiffed counter to an Fsmash.

You never approach from the ground. You need to get on that. Aerial approach game, especially when not spaced perfectly every last time, gets really stale, easy to read, react, and punish.


I only critiqued the first game in each of the first two videos, in case you're wondering.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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I love Cam.

With the exception of the Marth match which was friendlies, which I am thankful for the upload on, those are all bracket sets. The ICs match went to Smashville game 3 and I got bodied playing Ike/D3.

Those first two matches are the only ones in those two videos. I played Falco against th Lucario after game 1 and game 3 didn't get uploaded on the other set.

I look like I was playing scared against ICs because I WAS playing scared. I was doing better against that player than I have ever done and I was scared of choking it away. Ironically, that was one of the biggest contributors to choking it away. A little more on that at the end because it's an example of what I want to mention.

Against Lucario, I had no idea what the **** I was doing. I actually wouldn't have picked that one as a video I needed critiqued as pressingly and I was simply going to ask about the MU. The technical mistakes were frustrating. The roll into FSmash spam I saw and recognized, but could not for the life of me figure out how to deal with it properly in the heat of the moment, ESPECIALLY since I am so scared of that FSmash. I do not know the range that move possesses and I think it changes based on his aura. I should've manned up and spaced Fair over it when we hit Castle Siege transformation 3, but I didn't because I was afraid. That match-up is a display of me playing a MU I'm unfamiliar with against a character I know nothing about with a character I've only started to play for real. Things like the Aether commnts and the approaching with Fair comments and the approach from the ground comments are much appreciated as they are a commentary on fundamentals I need to improve.

Speaking of which, my fundamentals are complete ***. I know how to jab cancel. I do it all the time with Falco. It just wouldn't come with Ike on Saturday. I'm actually proud of myself for recognizing that it wasn't working after pools and dropping it rather than dropping tourney matches for trying to force it. I'm bad to aerial for a momentum cancel out of habit despite KNOWING that I don't need to be doing that. Watch my winner's bracket game against Player 1. I get absolutely destroyed because I am not used to Ike's item game. Watch game 2 where I just barely choke the game away with Falco. I played P-1 two games with Ike in Pools and 1 in bracket and I still didn't have Z-Catch timings. That's something I can work on. I make bad decisions such as rolling after a nair as mentioned above. I played scared of freaking SoPo. I Faired Diddy's shield while he had a banana about three different times before recognizing it. I dropped BThrow->Dash Attack a couple times. I mistimed USmashes and misspaced aerials. I botched my recovery and I ran into things I just didn't know how to handle.

All that being said, I had a LOT of fun. I am currently in an area where I don't have people to practice with like I normally do, but I have the ability to travel more freely and there is a new event every weekend.

Before Saturday, I've never played Ike in more than troll doubles, friendlies where I wasn't being too serious, and two money matches against low level players the previous Saturday because I was considering trying to take this character to a new level. I've always enjoyed watching Ike and playing with him in less serious environments. I finally got pissed enough at the weekend before that I needed to take a step back, so I made the decision to play Ike in at least the first game of every tournament match this time. That was when I started to try taking the character more seriously. I went here and to Youtube and I did my research. I looked for things to phase into my game and things to ditch. I did my homework, but I had no chance to practice before hand. I played 3 games against my friend's Mario who absolutely bodied me (No, he's not a player I would consider better than me. Certainly not significantly better to the point I should be losing to his troll Mario) before pools started and then I took 3rd seed in a pool I was supposed to be an unchallenged second seed in. That was all the time I got to work on things before bracket. In bracket though, I did really well considering. I have flashes of brilliance where I get a correct read and get that feeling of satisfaction

I've got a fairly large Louisiana tournament next weekend. I want to do this again, but I also want to learn as much as I can between here and there, so with this critique request, the things I am looking for are challenges to my decision making, habits that I default to in situations where there is a better option, tools I am not utilized, and notes of how to improve my fundamentals.

I will bring things I want to know about characters up in the match-up ratio thread (I assume that's where I should go) and other questions in the social.
 

Teh Brettster

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May as well take everything into the social thread. We're more active over there. Match-up thread was more of a thread where the frequent/top Ikes gathered to talk about match-up numbers among ourselves.
 

Blubolouis

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Okay, here goes.
Me vs quiKsilver, probably top 5 in europe, top10 for sure.
He has a lot of Yoh experience, I have a fair amount of ZSS experience. Nearly no samus experience though.
(yoh didn't come at this tournament btw :c)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucRspSq-ivI

I must have used full jab combos like... 4 times in this set ? that's because this guy's SDI is incredible. But still, I think I didn't play on my jabs nearly as much as I should have.


Please critique !
 

smashkng

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Against Samuses I dash attack under their Zairs. We duck a bit during that attack so it works in the same way as vs Falco, so it works when she doesn't use it super low. Samus has a bad SHFF, so Dash attack when you preditct she's going for SH Zair or when you predict she's trying to escape a frame trap with the help of a landing or air dodge canceled Zair.
 

Blubolouis

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Thank you FlashyStyle, still got a way to go as usual though ! And yeah Samus is harder IMO.

Smashking> I managed to play the only samus in france after this set vs quiksilver, and tried to approach with full-hop aerials and some dash-attacks (well, with some dash/walk shield). The full-hop strategy works decently. Better than what I do against quik anyway.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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The biggest thing about Samus, from my experience, is knowing how not to die. That's a big part of why Samus is a bad character and everyone can capitalize on it. Any time that she is in the air and facing you, you're pretty damn safe from death. She can't Bair you and she can't use her grounded smashes (or DTilt). She can power shot if it's charged or missle, but that's highly telegraphed, and, if you've spaced horribly wrong, she can Nair and kill you at really high percents. If she's on the ground, watch for FSmash, DTilt, High percent DSmash, and telegraphed power shot. If she's in the air with her back to you and you're in kill percents, just leave her alone as Bair is probably her best kill move. Drill the options into your head and it becomes really hard to die with any character short of eating a missile or Power Shot (or getting spiked as happened so very beautifully on your first stock).

From what I just saw, I think you win that one more often than you lose it, by far, if you play it a little more and get to see Samus' set-ups. Just, don't let yourself get caught playing it on FD.
 

Ussi

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Some general notes:

-Don't dair to the ground. You did it once and you got killed for that.
-too much fsmash, you weren't even reading with them, you were just fishing
-you died to not teching only once, your 3rd stock was you getting read out of your hitstun, teching would have prevented it though but it wasn't required to get out of the situation.
-to CG on The boat (and any low wall like on delfino) you have to use the bthrow wall lock, not fthrow. Jab sends people over the wall too.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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That Dair was input error. It was supposed to be FF Nair, but I was facing the wrong way anyway. It was somewhat heartbreaking.

For FSmash, I threw four. The first was the only one I was just fishing with and only because I was on a carpet moving away. The double one was read (I specifically remember the instance) as was the final one, I just misread. What I should've done, I think, is charge the second one rather than sit on it because I did misread as he was afraid and only wanted to shield where I thought he would want to go in. Generally, playing him, I read FSmash at specific spacing where I've seen him jump and whiff the first Fair. He played much safer this set than previous sets, so I need to play more safely to accommodate. In a similar vein, I just don't understand when I can catch Marth with USmash. I used that much more, and got lucky on his stupid decision on stock one, it was mostly ineffective when I feel it could be used well. I feel like I definitely need to roll back on FSmash, but I'm unsure when to use USmash because his Fair is so very good at denying me that option.

I'm bad. Shouldn't have died. Not teching put me in a situation where my environment changed rapidly from what I thought it would be and I made the wrong snap decision. Looking at it again, my third stock was a myriad of awful decisions.

Didn't want to wall lock him. I know that one and the specific walls on Delphino where Fthrow doesn't work. Generally, I wanted him on the right side so I could potentially make a play when he attempts to regain space. I was not confident in my ability to get the Bthrow. I know at one point, though, I tried to get a jab out of Fthrow as he rode up the wall and it did not work. : (
 

Ussi

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Usmash against Marth.. Usually just use it after Marth whiffs his UpB as usmash covers all his landing options and you can charge it sooner than trying for the fsmash read. General tip for using usmash is to try abusing how Ike goes into a ducking state when charging usmash to dodge blows aimmed at the upper body/head of Ike. It works surprisingly well because people tend to try to hit at their max range with their spacing and against tall characters they end up aim for the head from above. However Marth has pretty board hitboxes angle wise.. So its not that effective
 

Blubolouis

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Usmash is also useful when marth is on the ledge. Timed right, it beats a lot of his options (you will probably never face a marth who regularly uses ledge attack, and that's the only option that Usmash cannot cover at all), including ledgejump>fair which is invincible. The fair won't touch Ike as he is ducking, and marth will get hit by Usmash during his cooldown lag from Fair.

I don't know RC at all so I can't say anything about that match that Ussi didn't say already. It seems to affect this match-up a lot.
 

Heartstring

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Along with that up there ^ (which i agree with, but cant put to use due to a severe lack of good active marths in UK) Usmash is a good mixups from Bthrow when dash attack isnt guaranteed, particularly if reversed
 

Shinde425

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Okay, I got an update on my Ike. I got six games, please critique. I know I'm pretty bad, but I'm trying to learn how to pressure, approach, and mix it all up. Any tips towards that goal. Also, special attention to games on battlefield, people keep saying this is Ike's best stage. Lemme know how I can take advantage of this stage more, thank you :) Also, one last thing, I'm not nearly as close to ryo as I thought, don't rag on me for my outrageous claims while you watch these >.>
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
Game 4
Game 5
Game 6
I'm not sure if this is too many games, but this is should give you guys an idea of what I need to fix.
 

Heartstring

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You should try to get more familiar with timing and positioning for everything. for example, your first death was caused by aethering too early and making edgeguarding you a really easy task. if you had waited a little bit more you would be closer to the stage (meaning you could land on it if you really needed to) and a bit lower (which makes it harder for people to hit you out of it if theyre on stage). This sorta goes hand in hand with becoming more familiar with stuff
Also, When in a neutral position (a.k.a: neither characters are really defending or attacking) you should try to retreat your Fair instead of staying in the same spot, it makes it much safer, particularly against characters with better range

Probably the biggest thing for me though was your punishing. You're using ike, He's based around powerful punishes and fear-mongering. Every time the DK in game 1 did something very punishable (like an Up-b above stage or something else) you would punish with a grab. Now unless theyre within bthrow>DA range It's the weakest punish we have. Use things like Jab and Bair more. even Usmash for the super punishable things (and if you're going to use grab to punish, use dash shieldgrab instead of dashgrab. longer range and just as fast if you do it right)

When handling bananas. Try to use Z to grab them instead of an attack. ike has laggy attacks and cant really afford to get punish just for picking up a banana

Other than that. a lot of solid stuff is there
 

Ussi

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You need to ledge hop instead of ledge rolling and jumping (letting go of the ledge then mid air jumping back onto the stage, best followed up by and air dodge but you can nair/fair as well)
 

C.J.

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Did someone say items?

[COLLAPSE="Item techs"]Item pick-up- When next to the item, press the “A” button and your character will pick up the item next to you. Not every character has the same range in which they can pick up an item from. Also works when an item is thrown at you.

Smash throw- Throwing an item as hard as your character can. Use the C-stick or hit the analog stick all the way (as if you were doing a smash attack) and hit “A.”

Tilt throw- Throwing an item softer than a smash throw. Tilt the analog stick (as if you were going to do a tilt) and press “A.” You will throw the item less far and it will do less damage on hit.

Z-catch- While in the air, press “Z” to catch an item with no lag

Z-drop- While in the air, with an item in your hand, press “Z” to drop the item with no lag

Fair zoning while holding a banana- While you SH, Z-drop the banana and the immediately FF fair. You’ll zone with fair as normal, while keeping constant control over the banana. Alternatively, delaying your FF, or Z-dropping while you rise from you SH will cause you to not catch the banana making it cover your landing somewhat.

Air dodge catching- While an item is coming at you in the air, you can air dodge to catch the item. However, you go through the entire duration of the air dodge so this can be baited and punished fairly easily.

Instant throw- While air dodge catching an item, you can cancel the air dodge in the very beginning by throwing the item with either a smash throw or a tilt throw. You can throw the item in all four directions (up, down, left, and right).

Rising instant throw- While an item is on the ground next to you, you can buffer an instant throw out of you jump so you will throw the item on the ground as you rise upwards.

Instant throw on landing- This one is probably the hardest variation of instant throwing (although still fairly simple). Air dodge into the ground as you are about to land but delay you air dodge as late as possible and then as you land, input a throw. You will throw the item as you land on it and you won’t suffer landing lag. (Not sure if this removes RCO lag. Someone should test it for me since I don’t have my wii anymore). This greatly lessens the effect of bananas trapping your landings. A good reason you don’t want to land with an aerial while Diddy has a banana in his hand.

Instant throwing (as a ledge option)- If you are on the ledge with a banana near the ledge, you can fall off from the ledge, jump onto the stage and instant throw the banana as you pass it or land on it. Diddys will do this frequently to you. Use it against him and be prepared for him to use it vs. you.

Glide tossing- While an item is in your hand, you can cancel a roll with a smash throw (if you cancel it with a tilt throw it is referred to as a “weak glidetoss”). Most characters have eight glide tosses (sliding forward while throwing up, down, left, and right; sliding backwards while throwing up, down, left, and right). Marth, however, has between ten and sixteen different glidetosses. He has the normal eight glidetosses that every other character has (sans Yoshi of course). However, he additionally has a short glidetosses, sliding forward while throwing the item down and forward. I’ve been told that all eight of his glidetosses have shortened versions, but I’ve never been able to do them outside of the two aforementioned ones.

Glidetoss on landing- Very similarly to instant throwing on landing, you can delay your air dodge into the ground and grab the item using that. You can then buffer a glidetoss so that you glidetoss as soon as you land. This also lessens the effectiveness of landing traps and offers a good counter approach and escape option if you’re feeling pressured.

Glidetoss out of a run- While running, press shield and instantly input a glide toss. You’ll glide toss out of a run with almost no downtime between the two depending on how long you let your shield stay up before the glidetoss comes out.

Invincible item drop- Air dodge and immediately afterwards, press “A” (not simultaneously). This will have your character drop the item (like they would for a Z-drop) while air dodging. Useful for getting out of juggles.

DACIT (Dash Attack Canceled Item Toss)- Very similar to a DACUS. You initiate a dash attack and cancel it with an item throw. If you do the exact same input as a DACUS, you will throw the item up. Extrapolate from there. This results in a significantly shorter slide than a glidetoss would give you.

JCIT (Jump Canceled Item Toss)- Mostly useful while running. Input a jump then cancel it in your character’s jump squat frames with an item throw (basically the same as a JCgrab in melee). This give almost no slide.

Item pick-up (while running)- Usually while running, pressing “A” to pick up an item results in a dash attack while picking up an item on the ground. However, while running (NOT during an initial dash) if you press “A” when you get to the item and let the analog stick fall back to neutral, you will pick up the item and stop running.

Z-drop speedhug (thank you Kadaj!)- While you are speedhugging, you are considered to be off the stage and in the air for a VERY short amount of time. During this period of time, you can Z-drop an item as you are grabbing the ledge. If Diddy is being required to recover vertically it’s a close to guaranteed gimp.[/COLLAPSE]

Everything is assuming default controls.
 

ThunderSt0rm

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I don't really play many Ikes often so I wouldn't know much about jab, but I think Shinde's jab game is decent. Is this the case or does he still have to work more on it?

Also how did he do on Battlefield? He told me before that he has trouble playing there yet it's Ike's best stage.
 

Heartstring

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Location
England
Yea that's what I said iirc. Better to play somewhere you're comfortable with rather than somewhere you're not.
This. Although dont be too suprised if you find your comfortable stages being influenced by your main character. I prefer battlefield over anyone just because Ike taught me the art of making people on platforms cry XD
 

Shinde425

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
102
I guess I just need to learn to platform pressure. Well, might as well play on bf in friendlies to get the hang of it. Thank you guys for the tips.
 

Blubolouis

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,005
Location
Paris, France
4 months without a post... unacceptable ! Here's a match vs a good TL from germany. I think we're pretty much on the same level, and the game is relatively close. If you guys think I could try some other strategies in the match-up, or things like that, do tell me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoPDG2_Ua-4

I usually have a really hard time edgeguarding TL, but a few weeks after this match, I tried to use walk-off dair/double jump dair much more often, and it seemed to work fine. At least it made me realise some stuff.


Second match is MK, I don't really care for the Oli-Ike match-up.
 

Teh Brettster

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
3,428
Location
Denton, Texas (Dallas)
It took you until your last stock at above 100% to stop spot dodging. You should go through that match and try to identify every time you used a spot dodge when it was a sub-par option.

Maybe I'd need to watch again, but I didn't see a singe short hop air dodge. In my opinion, that's bad, and utilizing it would have helped you secure a victory.
 
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