The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[M15t3R E]

I feel so bad for Zelda mains now. Then again, they can always click Down+B.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've seen Ook play out DDD in areas where the infinite was allowed.

It's still a terrible MU, but picking DDD to counter pick isn't a 10 second process like some people think it is.

 

[Arcade]

Which match up ? d3 or IC?

I was thinking IC, but yeah Dedede too.

 

[phi1ny3]

Actually I have given you very good reasons MULTIPLE TIMES why Pit moved.
But you ignored them.

da KID and phil commented on exactly what I said the LAST TIME you asked (and subsequently you ignored it to then bring it up a few days later). If you arent doing it because you are insane, you must be doing it because you just selfishly want to cause commotion.

Zelda dropped with GOOD reasoning.
Good match up with Ice Climbers? Every ICs main in the BR stated that the match up is in their favour.
Good match up with Dedede? Myself (who has played the match up) and various other Dedede users agreed that it is in Dededes favour as well; I believe there was over all unanimous acceptance that Dedede wins the match up from other BBR players as well. I have personally explained to you why I doubt its even (or Zeldas favour), and then you talked about whiffed ftilts when I never even mentioned throwing out ftilts randomly.
The only match ups I am aware she has the advantage in are Bowser and Ganondorf. Why would I know that? Because we discussed Zelda. Beyond a smash diable fsmash and usmash, she has a fast dsmash and a powerful kill moves (that do not have set ups), she has critical weaknesses in her grab, mobility, camping and recovery.

I and most others in the BR are reasonably stern on the point that we believe she is bottom tier.

Pretty much.


tools are tools lol

 

[bigman40]

Shaya, can you give me a full explanation about Yoshi and his reason to move up? I want to see what you guys have agreed upon for Yoshi. (And no one else answer this if you're not in the BR plz.)

 

[Flayl]

OK, so the BBR thinks Zelda beats Bowser. We Bowsers think we lose to Samus and lose slightly to Yoshi. We think we go even with Link. Some bowsers are arguing Ganon is a close matchup, although I disagree.

We think our first advantaged matchup, from top to bottom of the tier list, is Lucas.

In light of all this, BBR decided Bowser was 2 tiers better than Zelda. The logic in Shaya's posts doesn't add up.

 

[Shaya]

People think Bowser has multiple even matchups? Mixed opinions over all (as usual). Some felt that even though he has poorish match ups across the cast, he does better on average against the higher tiers than a lot of low tiers do. Recently his match ups were discussed and I believe Vex was asked his opinions on them. Bowser seems to be losing support as time goes on though... Some movements are fast and succinct, everyone came to realise how much Zelda was overrated as a character for a long period of time; others are slow and gradual (you could say Diddys rise is an example of this) - who knows if Bowser will be on the same chopping block around the time of the next tier list.

When it comes to Yoshi... He wasnt discussed as much as others. One felt he was SUPARRRR special awesome; players like Edreese argued he was slightly underrated. Often people misconstrue rises as from their characters gains, not other characters dropping. Some people felt Mario needed a drastic fall. Over all though Yoshi is still in the same tier (technically) he was in before, so I consider his rise not overly notable.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Actually I have given you very good reasons MULTIPLE TIMES why Pit moved.
But you ignored them.

da KID and phil commented on exactly what I said the LAST TIME you asked (and subsequently you ignored it to then bring it up a few days later). If you arent doing it because you are insane, you must be doing it because you just selfishly want to cause commotion.

Zelda dropped with GOOD reasoning.
Good match up with Ice Climbers? Every ICs main in the BR stated that the match up is in their favour.
Good match up with Dedede? Myself (who has played the match up) and various other Dedede users agreed that it is in Dededes favour as well; I believe there was over all unanimous acceptance that Dedede wins the match up from other BBR players as well. I have personally explained to you why I doubt its even (or Zeldas favour), and then you talked about whiffed ftilts when I never even mentioned throwing out ftilts randomly.
The only match ups I am aware she has the advantage in are Bowser and Ganondorf. Why would I know that? Because we discussed Zelda. Beyond a smash diable fsmash and usmash, she has a fast dsmash and a powerful kill moves (that do not have set ups), she has critical weaknesses in her grab, mobility, camping and recovery.

I and most others in the BR are reasonably stern on the point that we believe she is bottom tier.

I'm gonna cover a few parts right now since I have work.

I honestly dont care what IC players have to say for match ups. Cause you have a certian one in there that went on saying that IC Beats Peach, yet could hardly explain his reasons. Just showing off and being arrogant, yet when he faces Peachs in tournament, he goes DDD all the time or Marth. Then you have another in there just just thinks IC beats everything. Those are the kind of people you have in there. Bias and can hardly explain crap. Thus get this messed up of a tier list.

Zelda Vs DDD, you made some silly post about that mathc up that shows that you actually never fought a good Zelda that knows how to fight DDD at all. But don't worry, I am gonna hit you with the light on that one.

And the reasons for being going up like that is crap. Cause if that is the case Peach should have went up. And at the same time, she has better tourny results then pit. More rep, but of course that ment jack squat to you boys. You you really cared about was an oer hyped character.

 

[Rybaia]

^19 other chars have better results than Pit lol.
But you know Pit is going to be top 10 or 5 in the next tier list.
That's a good reason for moving him up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

No one in there has yet to give me a legit reason as to why Peach has not moved yet again. Why Pit got that insane boost. And why Zelda/link got what they did. I'll make this easy and answer that for you. Cause you simply cant. And screwed up.

Also I doubt you boys talked about her like that with data and etc and got her to the spot that she is now.

Zelda dropped with GOOD reasoning.
Good match up with Ice Climbers? Every ICs main in the BR stated that the match up is in their favour.
Good match up with Dedede? Myself (who has played the match up) and various other Dedede users agreed that it is in Dededes favour as well; I believe there was over all unanimous acceptance that Dedede wins the match up from other BBR players as well. I have personally explained to you why I doubt its even (or Zeldas favour), and then you talked about whiffed ftilts when I never even mentioned throwing out ftilts randomly.
The only match ups I am aware she has the advantage in are Bowser and Ganondorf. Why would I know that? Because we discussed Zelda. Beyond a smash diable fsmash and usmash, she has a fast dsmash and a powerful kill moves (that do not have set ups), she has critical weaknesses in her grab, mobility, camping and recovery.

I and most others in the BR are reasonably stern on the point that we believe she is bottom tier.

I'm gonna cover a few parts right now since I have work.

I honestly dont care what IC players have to say for match ups. Cause you have a certian one in there that went on saying that IC Beats Peach, yet could hardly explain his reasons.

Zelda Vs DDD, you made some silly post about that mathc up that shows that you actually never fought a good Zelda that knows how to fight DDD at all. But don't worry, I am gonna hit you with the light on that one.

see this right here dark, this dont work.

You cant say that they havent given you reasoning, and than say that you dont care about their reasoning. You may not agree with them but you cant say they havent given you adaquate reasoning when they have and you just refuse to accept it.

 

[HeroMystic]

Some people felt Mario needed a drastic fall.

Sorry, but wtf? Can you elaborate on this?

 

[Alphicans]

dakid is right D.pch. You can't go on these rants saying the SBR is giving you no reasons only to end up saying their reasons aren't good enough :\.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I was thinking IC, but yeah Dedede too.

They will say the IC match up is in their Favor and that they bare lose against d3.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There are top Zelda mains?

 

[da K.I.D.]

first tier list.

people: sonic isnt bottom tier
sbr: prove it.
people: peep these sick tourney results
result: biggest rise in smash tier list history

3rd tier list.

ally: CF isnt bottom tier
sbr: prove it.
ally: peep these vids of me ****** grand finals of two different tourneys
result: captain falcon is no longer bottom tier.

4th tier list.

People: zelda isnt the second worst character in the game.

Prove it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sorry, but wtf? Can you elaborate on this?

*looks at tournament results*

Maybe that? If Mario is good, why are his results a pile of crap? >_>


At the risk of having my already terrible rep around here taking a deep nosedive: I agree with DP that Pit's rise was completely unwarranted. For crying out loud, look at his tournament results compared to those around him in his current tier. If his planking game is as good as some BBR members seem to think, why hasn't it been used successfully yet? You're judging off of potential, not facts there. You can't prove it with frame data (like DMG has with MK's planking), and you can't prove it with results. There is really nothing to back it up. I don't care if it happened largely due to the shuffling of the tiers, or the overrating of his planking: Pit should have taken a dive if anything.

Bowser also confuses me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im thinking that the influence of pits planking is pretty clear if you look up any vids of vex vs any IC player. not saying that makes his rise warrented but i think thats what some people had in mind when they were thinking about him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

im thinking that the influence of pits planking is pretty clear if you look up any vids of vex vs any IC player. not saying that makes his rise warrented but i think thats what some people had in mind when they were thinking about him.

A hype train is a very stupid reason to raise a character. I mean, has Vex even placed with Pit yet? I don't remember seeing that.

 

[HeroMystic]

*looks at tournament results*

Maybe that? If Mario is good, why are his results a pile of crap? >_>

Because he's an unpopular character, that's why. And stop acting like results are everything, it's already been said that after B-tier tournament results become unreliable for placement due to the rarity of placing top 8. If Mario deserves a drastic fall, the reasoning better be more than tournament results.

 

[da K.I.D.]

of course you would want to disregard data that shows your character sucks... =/

and once again we return to the classic chicken or the egg question.

is mario lack of top 8 placings because hes a bad character, or is he just a bad character because nobody uses him and thus nobody gets top 8 with him?

personally, i think its the former but thats just me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because he's an unpopular character, that's why. And stop acting like results are everything, it's already been said that after B-tier tournament results become unreliable for placement due to the rarity of placing top 8. If Mario deserves a drastic fall, the reasoning better be more than tournament results.

I'm saying what was the likely reasoning.

Never said if I agreed with it or not. (Though you have to admit, it does not help your case at all if you have results like that, so I'm leaning towards that being at least part of a good reason to drop Mario.)

 

[Dark 3nergy]

first tier list.

people: sonic isnt bottom tier
sbr: prove it.
people: peep these sick tourney results
result: biggest rise in smash tier list history

3rd tier list.

ally: CF isnt bottom tier
sbr: prove it.
ally: peep these vids of me ****** grand finals of two different tourneys
result: captain falcon is no longer bottom tier.

4th tier list.

People: zelda isnt the second worst character in the game.

Prove it.

lol SBR

Spoiler

asdafssfsdsf

 

[HeroMystic]

of course you would want to disregard data that shows your character sucks... =/

and once again we return to the classic chicken or the egg question.

is mario lack of top 8 placings because hes a bad character, or is he just a bad character because nobody uses him and thus nobody gets top 8 with him?

personally, i think its the former but thats just me.

Personally, you're not comprehending what I am asking.

Mario deserves a drastic fall. I wanna know why.

EDIT: And since I decided to take a look:

Most up-to-date rankings, no details: (last updated March 8, 2010)

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E: :shiek:
F:

It better be more than tournament results.

 

[da K.I.D.]

as far as I can tell, some of his only redeeming qualities lie in the fact that he has abilities that none of his players can master and put into practice.

other than that, nothing about him really makes him better than other characters.
he has combos... ok, so does ganon...
hes kinda hard to gimp... well so is jpuff
he has a decent projectile and a long ranged f smash... link has better projectiles and imo, a better f smash.

better question might be, why would mario NOT deserved to fall a couple spots?

of course, im not sbr, but from my pov, his current placing doesnt seem outlandish to me at all.

EDIT: one spot =/= drastic fall

 

[HeroMystic]

And you just performed a contradiction.

he has combos... ok, so does ganon...
hes kinda hard to gimp... well so is jpuff
he has a decent projectile and a long ranged f smash... link has better projectiles and imo, a better f smash.

Outside of Ganon having combos (>_>), you basically just made a list of why Mario is a decent character.

 

[da K.I.D.]

And you just performed a contradiction.


Outside of Ganon having combos (>_>), you basically just made a list of why Mario is a decent character.

firstly, flame choke to (insert follow up) is about 25%
and dair to anything is pretty much a guaranteed 40%

also, I listed mario positive qualitys, but if you note, I made these comparisons with lesser characters to show that all bad characters have positive qualities, but that doesnt make them good. those qualities make him decent but...

other than that, nothing about him really makes him better than other characters.

 

[Matador]

Wow @ how high Zelda is on tourney rankings.

SSJ Wow @ how low Lucas is...

The lower the better Hero, lol. Lower position on the tier list = more wtf-faces when you **** with him XD

 

[HeroMystic]

firstly, flame choke to (insert follow up) is about 25%
and dair to anything is pretty much a guaranteed 40%

Tech chases do not equate to combos.

also, I listed mario positive qualitys, but if you note, I made these comparisons with lesser characters to show that all bad characters have positive qualities, but that doesnt make them good. those qualities make him decent but...

Which is laughable because you're presenting a case that is flawed in the fact that you don't have the information about all of Mario's qualities, nor are you looking at the big picture which shows Mario's greatest quality.

@Matador: True XD. I don't take tier lists in a serious manner, but I do like to see reasons why, either so I can nod at it or point and laugh.

 

[Justblaze647]

Prove it.

Sorry, this is wrong. Peach mains have put in the work, and have the results to show for it as well.

It's basically been like this from DP's point of view:

People: Peach deserves to rise.
SBR: Prove it.
People: Look at these tourney placings, representation, and comprehensive guide we constructed of Peach tactics/frame data/how to play well with her. Peach deserves a rise.
SBR: Prove it.
People: wtf we just did?! SEVERAL TIMES!
SBR: We don't care, Peach doesnt move, and if you keep complaining, we'll drop her a couple of spots.
People: You guys suck.
SBR:We are the law.

Also, @ Shaya: perhaps I'm thick, but what exactly is the reason for Pit's rise? All I remember is a bunch of "well, idk" and a few "well SOMEONE in the bbr thinks he's top 5, soooooo"

 

[da K.I.D.]

Tech chases do not equate to combos.

so the dair part still stands.

Which is laughable because you're presenting a case that is flawed in the fact that you don't have the information about all of Mario's qualities, nor are you looking at the big picture which shows Mario's greatest quality.

would that happen to be the ability that

none of his players can master and put into practice.

?

@ blaze, what I remember shaya saying is that they wanted to make sure each character was in the correct tier, and after they had the 5 characters in pits tier, he was voted the highest. and that even though that might not betrue, it didnt carry a huge amount of weight to him personally because
1. they got him in the right tier and
2. all the characters in that tier are very very close in terms of maximum ability

 

[HeroMystic]

would that happen to be the ability that

?

No. Try again.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Wow @ how high Zelda is on tourney rankings.

SSJ Wow @ how low Lucas is...

The lower the better Hero, lol. Lower position on the tier list = more wtf-faces when you **** with him XD

I think thats Zelda/SHiek together.

 

[Rybaia]

*looks at tournament results*

Maybe that? If Mario is good, why are his results a pile of crap? >_>


At the risk of having my already terrible rep around here taking a deep nosedive: I agree with DP that Pit's rise was completely unwarranted. For crying out loud, look at his tournament results compared to those around him in his current tier. If his planking game is as good as some BBR members seem to think, why hasn't it been used successfully yet? You're judging off of potential, not facts there. You can't prove it with frame data (like DMG has with MK's planking), and you can't prove it with results. There is really nothing to back it up. I don't care if it happened largely due to the shuffling of the tiers, or the overrating of his planking: Pit should have taken a dive if anything.

Bowser also confuses me.

I don't thnk that the BBR used tournament results too much.
Because if so:
If Pit is good, why are his results a pile of crap? >_>

Btw I agree with everything you said.

 

[Justblaze647]

@ blaze, what I remember shaya saying is that they wanted to make sure each character was in the correct tier, and after they had the 5 characters in pits tier, he was voted the highest. and that even though that might not betrue, it didnt carry a huge amount of weight to him personally because
1. they got him in the right tier and
2. all the characters in that tier are very very close in terms of maximum ability

Oh yeah right right, I remember seeing that now too. The issue here is this:

2. all the characters in that tier are very very close in terms of maximum ability

Tier lists aren't a reflection of a character's maximum potential, but rather a showing of their current standings with the rest of the cast. He may be in the right tier, but his position in it couldn't possibly be based off of his current metagame.

 

[Renki]

No. Try again.

I'll take a stab.

Mario's ability to gimp/**** multiple char's recoveries?

P.S. - I like Mario.

 

[Justblaze647]

@ Hero: Where would you think Mario should be placed most accurately? Based on this list, because I'm sure you might want to make some other changes. But, yeah, where do you think he truly belongs, in your opinion. Above which character, or tied with whom?

 

[HeroMystic]

Actually no. That's just a popularized quality.

Here, lets play 21 questions.

What does Mario have that Link does not?
What does Mario have that Ganon does not?
What does Mario have that Zelda does not?
What does Mario have that Jigglypuff does not?
And for ****s and giggles, what does Mario have that Sonic does not?

@JB: I'd have to make other changes to make it look accurate, but based on this list? Objective side says top of Low tier, but my personal feelings say Mario belongs in Mid tier, between Ness and Bowser.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic_acid]

Mk Doesn't need his own tier

 

[Renki]

Here, lets play 21 questions.

What does Mario have that Link does not?
What does Mario have that Ganon does not?
What does Mario have that Zelda does not?
What does Mario have that Jigglypuff does not?
And for ****s and giggles, what does Mario have that Sonic does not?

1. A decent recovery
2. A projectile. :D
3. A decent recovery
4. A projectile. :D
5. A projectile. :D

I wasn't exactly sure if you were looking for different answers. :x

 

[da K.I.D.]

Tier lists aren't a reflection of a character's maximum potential, but rather a showing of their current standings with the rest of the cast. He may be in the right tier, but his position in it couldn't possibly be based off of his current metagame.

I didnt say maximum potential, because like you said, theres no way to determine that.

I said maximum ability, which is the characters being played at the top of the current metagame. like you said.

I also agree that pit isnt better than everyone, (let alone, anyone,) in his tier, but thats just how the voting played out.