The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Conviction]

But I could see where K.I.D is coming from. It's easier to PS the Jolts than say Needles, but I still say it's easy to manuver past needles.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@stud

i wouldnt know. Im far more knowledgable about pika v. fox. than I am about fox v shiek. Since ive basically made a tradition out of beating a pika in my area with fox in a money match at every tourney I go to. and im much more knowledgable about pika as a character than i am sheik

I might try to get vids of my fox vs snakeees shiek at my tourney this weekend but im pretty sure he'll **** me.

 

[Conviction]

I beat a pika before >.> K.I.D remember that set mof the Fox vs. Yoshi in Winners but it didn't have Match 3? (The one you nominated for best Yoshi like last month.) It didn't have a Match 3 cause I beat his Pika with Fox.

Also he is not the only Pika I've beaten just the only one people would actually care about.

 

[Chuee]

I was comparing what I was trying to argue to what you were arguing that one time, I never said you were stupid.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its been a while since I played pikapika but every time he did play that match with me, his wins werent INCREDIBLY decisive, it was like high% 2 stock- mid %1 stock. but the other pika i play with I 2 stocked in an MM a couple weeks ago.

i just find it funny, that all the characters that have some gay lock or something on fox, get up tilt ***** almost just as hard.

 

[Conviction]

No, I want mk in my face so I can get damage.
Character bias lol.
This reminds me when some Fox guy tried explaining that Fox vs ZSS was even.

Stop bringing this up. I don't care.

EDIT: The only reason the MU thread has it as 65-35 is because the thread creator thinks it's that. Everyone else said it was 6-4.

Ok you're right but you were still wrong for calling me character bias if it was fact even better for Fox than what I thought

P.S. I see that was and old and LOL agruement that went down so I won't bring it back up.

EDIT: K.I.D I think there are only like 3 that actually matter though. I've yet seen the Peach one put into effect sooo.... that stops 4.

 

[Luigi player]

One really bad MU is enough to get you down...

If you face a DK it should be nearly impossible for him to win.

1st game: Maybe you don't know he's picking DK, and it's double blind... so yeah, 1st match isn't that bad for DK, because he could win if you don't choose D3.

2nd game: If the DK won, you can CP, if the DK lost, he can CP, but you can still choose D3. Now you know he's going to use DK since he used him the first match. If he lost the first game and still chooses DK if you chose D3... well it's like another auto lose for him.

3rd game: if the DK won the first and lost the 2nd, then you can just use D3 and he loses.


So DK shouldn't ever win a set. Matches could be possible if you don't know he's using DK... but most of the time people know what characters everyone mains anyway. And if the DK uses someone else against Dedede then it's not DK alone... the tierlist doesn't take into account how good characters are with secondaries. It shows how much of a chance you have to win with this character. And only this one. So theoretically DK should be bottom tier.
Although technically every character who has a MU worse than 45:55 would be unviable since he probably won't win if the enemy can choose his "counter".

It's just that not everyone is playing too many characters and mostly stick to their mains so most people don't even CP characters... and most of the time you still need some skill with a character even if you do counter one. This is what makes it so bad for DK. Everyone can pick D3 and win vs him. You can't just CP most characters with ICs because you'd need to spend some time to learn the chaingrabs. You can't just choose Pika vs Fox since you'd need to get the grab which a good Fox should be able to avoid if he's trying and it's the only thing you can do with Pika. You need more skill to win in every other MU.


It's theoretically possible to still win with DK if you avoid D3 completely. Running away all the time and playing 100 % grab-safe could maybe get you the win... it should be a really boring and loong and of course very difficult match though.


And DK vs D3 is not like Pika vs Fox... Fox isn't that big of a target and Pika doesn't have such good grabrange. So it's much more difficult to initiate the chaingrab. While it's still not so good for Fox it's possible to avoid his grab and camp him. Of course it's still difficult, but at least it's easier than to avoid D3s grab with DK...

 

[Conviction]

Luigi summed it up.

 

[Scar]

saying former isnt really appropriate since Scar and others are still kicking *** with him in melee tournaments

thx studly

hax and ss are really holding it down

when darkrain shows up he *****

i still lose to mediocre foxes (lovage)

don't worry about it, i won't let you guys down

 

[Conviction]

Lol namesearch FTW.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

good post

A DK, no matter how good, should NEVER win a set without a secondary if his opponent is playing to win. Ever. And this is why DK should be bottom tier. In other hard counter situations, in fact, in virtually every other hard counter situation, it isn't as easy as "pick up counter for the first or second time and win easily". In this one... if you aren't **** at brawl, the DK cannot win.

 

[Spelt]

A DK, no matter how good, should NEVER win a set without a secondary if his opponent is playing to win. Ever. And this is why DK should be bottom tier.

this is horrible logic. e_e
just because DK was one hard counter matchup doesn't mean he's bottom tier. AT ALL.
counterpicking

Spoiler

picking meta knight

is an essential part of playing to win.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I keep on saying this.

It's not that he has one hard counter where if you go against that character and your opponent has a clue, you auto-lose (ICs vs. Ganon for example). It's a hard counter where any idiot can just pick up the character and counter you within 10 seconds if he knows about the CG.

I'm not saying that a DK sans secondary should never win a tournament. I'm saying that a DK sans secondary should never win a set.

 

[Luigi player]

this is horrible logic. e_e
just because DK was one hard counter matchup doesn't mean he's bottom tier. AT ALL.
counterpicking

Spoiler

picking meta knight

is an essential part of playing to win.

With a good secondary against D3 (like Falco) you could maybe scare people so they don't pick him (in the first match or your CP), but DK alone can't do ****.

 

[Spelt]

my point is, though, that no matter how hard you get countered by 1-2 characters that is no means to send them to bottom tier. :/
you still have the first double blind match with DK, plus if you lose the 2nd match there's always a chance to play DK again if they try to counterpick your counterpick.

 

[Shaya]

People rate a lot of characters on their ability to win the starter, which is the most important match of the set.
Hence DK is a reasonably viable character. He struggles to win the set though.

 

[HeroMystic]

DK getting anally ***** by D3 doesn't make him a bottom/low tier character. He's still viable in many ways, like counterpicking or in matches not consisting of D3 basically. He's just basically a character that is forced to have a secondary, but any of characters not named Metaknight has this condition, DK just feels it the hardest.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Having bad matchups doesn't mean you're forced to have a secondary.

Having a 0:100 matchup with someone anyone can pick up to counter you without any practice is a different story.

 

[Steeler]

you also have to take into account that quite a few of the BBRoomers that voted on the tier list come from areas that have infinites like that banned...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

you also have to take into account that quite a few of the BBRoomers that voted on the tier list come from areas that have infinites like that banned...

They went with the official rules, where it's not banned.

 

[HeroMystic]

Having bad matchups doesn't mean you're forced to have a secondary.

Having a 0:100 matchup with someone anyone can pick up to counter you without any practice is a different story.

Point taken, but what I'm saying is a character shouldn't drop to bottom because of an anal **** match-up, because it's recommended to have secondaries for hard-counter match-ups anyway.

Besides, this isn't a tournament rankings thread.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i still think its not as automatic as some people are making it out to be.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Point taken, but what I'm saying is a character shouldn't drop to bottom because of an anal **** match-up, because it's recommended to have secondaries for hard-counter match-ups anyway.

Besides, this isn't a tournament rankings thread.

Having bad matchups doesn't mean you're forced to have a secondary.

Having a 0:100 matchup with someone anyone can pick up to counter you without any practice is a different story.

my point is, though, that no matter how hard you get countered by 1-2 characters that is no means to send them to bottom tier. :/
you still have the first double blind match with DK, plus if you lose the 2nd match there's always a chance to play DK again if they try to counterpick your counterpick.

Having bad matchups doesn't mean you're forced to have a secondary.

Having a 0:100 matchup with someone anyone can pick up to counter you without any practice is a different story.

You're picking a character where the only way a certain matchup could be worse is if the moment the game starts, you lose all 3 stocks. DDD vs. DK is, for all intents and purposes, a 99.99999-0.0000001 matcup-meaning, you CANNOT win unless the DDD is a complete and utter idiot. It's just one counterpick away, and you lose. This is not fair.

 

[Judge Judy]

The list certainly has shifted around a lot.

 

[DMG]

They went with the official rules, where it's not banned.

I had to remind people a few times that we were not basing the list off the infinite being banned. However I GUARANTEE you that a few people still took it into consideration. So while we should be going completely off our recommended list, on some stuff people "forget" this.

you also have to take into account that quite a few of the BBRoomers that voted on the tier list come from areas that have infinites like that banned...

Indeed.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I had to remind people a few times that we were not basing the list off the infinite being banned. However I GUARANTEE you that a few people still took it into consideration. So while we should be going completely off our recommended list, on some stuff people "forget" this.

.

This is what I don't get how could a tier list be made by using rules that aren't used in the current tourney settings? Hell why not apply Japans ruleset and make a tier list based off of their rules thats pretty much which you guys did.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You're picking a character where the only way a certain matchup could be worse is if the moment the game starts, you lose all 3 stocks. DDD vs. DK is, for all intents and purposes, a 99.99999-0.0000001 matcup-meaning, you CANNOT win unless the DDD is a complete and utter idiot. It's just one counterpick away, and you lose. This is not fair.

I like how you say that dk/ddd is a 100/0 matchup. and than I come in and refute your statement with applicable strategies that people can and will use in-game and after what seems to be an overwhelming arguement from my end, you completely ignore me, and go on to say the exact same thing that I refuted about 5 hours later like it never happened.

You are overstating the one sided ness of this matchup, its bad, but its DEFINITELY not as bas as you say.

 

[YagamiLight]

You are overstating the one sided ness of this matchup, its bad, but its DEFINITELY not as bas as you say.

I'm pretty sure most people consider Donkey Kong v King Dedede to be the most ridiculous match-up in Brawl. To be blunt, it's rather hard to overstate the onesidedness of it when what it effectively boils down to is one grab = one kill versus a character with practically no disjointed moves and a large hurtbox.

 

[HeroMystic]

Agreed with Light.

You're picking a character where the only way a certain matchup could be worse is if the moment the game starts, you lose all 3 stocks. DDD vs. DK is, for all intents and purposes, a 99.99999-0.0000001 matcup-meaning, you CANNOT win unless the DDD is a complete and utter idiot. It's just one counterpick away, and you lose. This is not fair.

I understand that point, but I don't think you're understanding mine. Like I said, you're treating this more like a character rankings rather than a tier list.

Yes, Chaingrab vs DK is practically 100:0, and yes, it's stupidly easy to win with Chaingrab. Any respectable player can counterpick and win. However, that's where it ends. It doesn't stop DK from being a secondary nor a CP character, and in a game where counterpicks have such an influence, we can't really forget about that. If DK is a bottom tier, it essentially means we shouldn't be seeing him in any tournament ever because he realistically cannot win any match (not set).

Ganondorf is bottom tier because he's hard-countered by pretty much every character. DK isn't in that realm of failure.

 

[theunabletable]

I'm pretty sure most people consider Donkey Kong v King Dedede to be the most ridiculous match-up in Brawl. To be blunt, it's rather hard to overstate the onesidedness of it when what it effectively boils down to is one grab = one kill versus a character with practically no disjointed moves and a large hurtbox.

Ganon vs ICs is more ridiculous.

Just saying.

And if grab=death vs a large hurt box character meant 100-0, wouldn't more characters have unwinnable matchups vs ICs?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I've never seen the IC's have King DDD's grab.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I like how you say that dk/ddd is a 100/0 matchup. and than I come in and refute your statement with applicable strategies that people can and will use in-game and after what seems to be an overwhelming arguement from my end, you completely ignore me, and go on to say the exact same thing that I refuted about 5 hours later like it never happened.

You are overstating the one sided ness of this matchup, its bad, but its DEFINITELY not as bas as you say.

Actually, it is. I took your counterarguments and showed you why it made no sense. DownB vs. DDD. WHAAAAAT?

I understand that point, but I don't think you're understanding mine. Like I said, you're treating this more like a character rankings rather than a tier list.

Yes, Chaingrab vs DK is practically 100:0, and yes, it's stupidly easy to win with Chaingrab. Any respectable player can counterpick and win. However, that's where it ends. It doesn't stop DK from being a secondary nor a CP character, and in a game where counterpicks have such an influence, we can't really forget about that. If DK is a bottom tier, it essentially means we shouldn't be seeing him in any tournament ever because he realistically cannot win any match (not set).

Ganondorf is bottom tier because he's hard-countered by pretty much every character. DK isn't in that realm of failure.

Ganon is naturally that bad. But let me ask you this-is Link or Zelda so bad that you can pick a certain character, go in with no idea how to play the char beyond one simple combo, and destry them? Like, I mean destroy as in JV3stock a top Ganon with a char you've never used before.

But while DK could win a match, without a secondary he's hopeless. And the moment your opponent catches on to you being a DK main... DDD, GG?

Ganon vs ICs is more ridiculous.

Just saying.

And if grab=death vs a large hurt box character meant 100-0, wouldn't more characters have unwinnable matchups vs ICs?

That's not the whole issue.
The fact that (anyone) vs. ICs is bad is not really relevant. Why? If you don't main, or at least secondary ICs, you can't CP and just win the match for free.

DDD vs. DK is basically a bye for the DDD, regardless of how good both players are.

 

[Browny]

can we go back to complaining about pit and zelda again? Its better than talking about ddd vs dk lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

@BPC.
Stop theorycrafting please. learning how to do only the infinite does not give you an autowin. I think I can prove it this weekend.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll throw my two cents into the pot here.

If I did what was suggested above, and CP'd a DK with D3, and he started to spam Down B, it would be easy to get by. I'd just stand outside of it's range, spamming Side B all day. Eventually, I'm going to get one of those spiky dudes, and he can go through DK's Down B. It would hit, and suddenly I have a % lead, and DK must approach if he wants to win. At which point in time I shield grab and lead it into a KO.

If I were to name a non-Ganondorf releated MU where it could possibly be 100-0, it would be D3 vs DK. Of course, that's if you're only looking at pure theorycraft in one direction without accounting for the human element, which should always be taken into account. What is there to prove that the DK couldn't trick D3 into shielding at the wrong time, grab the D3 himself, throw him off stage, rack up damage with a few Bairs, and then run away for the rest of the match for example?

 

[HeroMystic]

But while DK could win a match, without a secondary he's hopeless. And the moment your opponent catches on to you being a DK main... DDD, GG?

Agree to disagree then.

 

[Jigglymaster]

What is this I don't even...

Captain Falcon over Jigglypuff?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What is this I don't even...

Captain Falcon over Jigglypuff?

I agree; Jiggs is way underrated. >.>

 

[Ripple]

I agree; Jiggs is way underrepresnted. >.>

fixed

jiggs has some great match ups with the top/high tiers .

MK
diddy
falco I would assume isn't bad
ICS

a few others


but jiggs gets wrecked by the most random characters
marth
G&W
DK
falcon

all are 70-30 cept falcon

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Still, uh, doesn't that say Jiggs is more viable than most of Low tier?