The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Ripple]

Ripple, imagine Dedede being able to use Wario's bite instead of his inhale, and comboing that instantly into a grab. That's basically what Wario does lol. Guaranteed.

stay near the ledge and its not guaranteed. staying near the ledge for 20 some % is easy

 

[Chuee]

Yep.
10truths
EDIT: @Z

 

[Purple]

Peach might not have as good kill power as we wish she did, but she can rack up some nice damage easily, and that makes up for it.

In teams maybe, but not exactly in singles where most characters can outcamp her when/if they do get a stock lead.

 

[demonictoonlink]

bigfoot has not played (mained) DK since last year. west coast has no good DK experience. its not a ******** match up. DK can avoid grabs quite well in this match up.



no, not at all. why is this such a common misconception? DK does very well against ICs. its even or 55-45 ICs

To be honest it's just the whole, "This character is big so ICs grab them" philosophy. Also I could see the lack of a Fair hurting DK here.

 

[DMG]

He can CG you in place, Bite you from behind, or combo a grab from a regular attack. Staying near the edge or trying to platform camp is fine with me; it limits your options a lot more than mine.

 

[Ripple]

To be honest it's just the whole, "This character is big so ICs grab them" philosophy. Also I could see the lack of a Fair hurting DK here.

not having a fair doesn't really matter it this match up. DK's ground pound out reaches all ICs attackes including blizzard. the only way they can actually get into DK's close zone is to hammer squall that can be blocked with DK's super armor on punch or up-b. its a fairly simple match up but its not easy

 

[Ripple]

He can CG you in place, Bite you from behind, or combo a grab from a regular attack. Staying near the edge or trying to platform camp is fine with me; it limits your options a lot more than mine.

I would have a chance of falling off if you CG me near the ledge and comboing a grab from an attack is not guaranteed. and then 3 attacks later he's out of the % for bite to grab.

staying near the ledge doesn't limit us. it covers at least one of those options, and maybe two

 

[demonictoonlink]

When explained it does make sense that DK can do it, but there are just some things that seem like they would flat out beat DK.

Like being above ICs. You're either going to get Uair'd or grabbed when you land and he seems pretty defenseless. He can...stop for a second with SideB, but does that really help? I saw you do it against Lain and he just grabbed after.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When explained it does make sense that DK can do it, but there are just some things that seem like they would flat out beat DK.

Like being above ICs. You're either going to get Uair'd or grabbed when you land and he seems pretty defenseless. He can...stop for a second with SideB, but does that really help? I saw you do it against Lain and he just grabbed after.

At the same time, Up-B allows you to retreat to a platform, and if you're not helplessly landing, you can fight ICs on the ground.

 

[Ripple]

the only reason DK should be on a platform is to run away to the other side of the stage. granted I don't always do that but its what you should do.

you have a better chance on the ground running straight into ICs rather than running away from them as DK oddly enough

 

[demonictoonlink]

I no longer think ICs **** DK.
lol
but really

 

[Meru.]

In teams maybe, but not exactly in singles where most characters can outcamp her when/if they do get a stock lead.

Thats not true and Peach has no trouble approaching anyway.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I toooooold youuuu.

So basically SDI is useless against tornado. Which means using the C-stick is pointless as it counts towards SDI. Tapping the control stick is pointless as well since it counts as SDI then DI. So, the best method to get out of the tornado is to use DI by merely holding the control stick in a constant direction while buffering the next move to come out once you escape. This about sum it up?

 

[Yikarur]

So basically SDI is useless against tornado. Which means using the C-stick is pointless as it counts towards SDI. Tapping the control stick is pointless as well since it counts as SDI then DI. So, the best method to get out of the tornado is to use DI by merely holding the control stick in a constant direction while buffering the next move to come out once you escape. This about sum it up?

fits it.

10fhufh

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So basically SDI is useless against tornado. Which means using the C-stick is pointless as it counts towards SDI. Tapping the control stick is pointless as well since it counts as SDI then DI. So, the best method to get out of the tornado is to use DI by merely holding the control stick in a constant direction while buffering the next move to come out once you escape. This about sum it up?

That is correct.

 

[Kewkky]

I wonder why people have problems landing against grab-happy opponents. I see people attacking their opponent's shields while landing, using their upB to alter their landing trajectories, airdodging into their opponents to try and spotdodge/roll away before getting grabbed... But I have never seen anyone footstool the opponent's shield.

Why?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wonder why people have problems landing against grab-happy opponents. I see people attacking their opponent's shields while landing, using their upB to alter their landing trajectories, airdodging into their opponents to try and spotdodge/roll away before getting grabbed... But I have never seen anyone footstool the opponent's shield.

Why?

Well, for one, Nana can grab you as you footstool Popo.

That only accounts for Ice Climbers, though.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You might not have the trajectory to land on them. Someone might be spacing you to make sure you do not go over their heads, but always keep you in front of them. That sort of makes it difficult to jump on the shield. There is also the risk that someone might attack you out of shield with an aerial. I would never try footstooling MK when he is in a shield. There is also the problem that you are still stuck in the air.

 

[Meru.]

I wonder why people have problems landing against grab-happy opponents. I see people attacking their opponent's shields while landing, using their upB to alter their landing trajectories, airdodging into their opponents to try and spotdodge/roll away before getting grabbed... But I have never seen anyone footstool the opponent's shield.

Why?

I dont find footstools reliable enough, but Im also just bad at it :l.

 

[clowsui]

I think Kewkky means air footstooling them...if you do, if the ICs are prepared they'll just uair you and the situation is reset

 

[Kewkky]

I think Kewkky means air footstooling them...if you do, if the ICs are prepared they'll just uair you and the situation is reset

Yeah, but its better eating an uair than a grab. And I also say this because characters like DK, as they land, are pretty much screwed if your character has a good grab. So, since you don't have anything you can do to avoid landing next to your opponent and getting grabbed except what DTL pointed out, you now have the option of simply footstooling them and moving somewhere else that's safer... Like the ledge, or a close platform where upB would've caused you to get punished.

 

[Ripple]

Yeah, but its better eating an uair than a grab. And I also say this because characters like DK, as they land, are pretty much screwed if your character has a good grab. So, since you don't have anything you can do to avoid landing next to your opponent and getting grabbed except what DTL pointed out, you now have the option of simply footstooling them and moving somewhere else that's safer... Like the ledge, or a close platform where upB would've caused you to get punished.

its a good thing DK can completely pause his vertical momentum and cause a pitfall if they try grabbing as he is falling. or he can B-reverse a full punch which is unpunishable due to shield pressure/shieldstun.

 

[Poltergust]

I don't encounter that problem much, but that's because Yoshi has a good air-grab.

Actually, any characters with air-grabs (except Ganondorf lol) shouldn't have a problem landing in front of a shielding opponent. There's always the possibility that they can predict it, but most air-grabs are safe on spot-dodge anyways, and if they roll away you just accomplished landing safely.

 

[Kewkky]

Note that I didn't say anything about air grabs, and I wouldn't say that DK's sideB is reliable for grabbing opponents. I as Kirby, always wait for my opponents to fall into my grab range/touch the floor/hit my shield and grab them while they're committed to the attack before grabbing them. Characters who are susceptible to juggling always airdodge into me and try to roll away, upB away, or attack me and try to knock me back, but they never footstool my shield, which most of the time would be a smarter move.

 

[yoda]

link and jigglypuff are underrated.
diddy kong and peach are overrated.

this is not so true.

 

[teluoborg]

I instantly believe you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So basically SDI is useless against tornado. Which means using the C-stick is pointless as it counts towards SDI. Tapping the control stick is pointless as well since it counts as SDI then DI. So, the best method to get out of the tornado is to use DI by merely holding the control stick in a constant direction while buffering the next move to come out once you escape. This about sum it up?

I dont know why I didnt come to this conclusion myself, this helps me alot.

I wonder why people have problems landing against grab-happy opponents. I see people attacking their opponent's shields while landing, using their upB to alter their landing trajectories, airdodging into their opponents to try and spotdodge/roll away before getting grabbed... But I have never seen anyone footstool the opponent's shield.

Why?

because footstooling requires you to do a move that doesnt defend yourself in the slightest.

think about falling into snake from the air at 100+%, and doing something that doesnt defend yourself.

you try to facejump him, he uptilts you and you die.

at least with the other options you are forcing them to have good timing, or respond correctly in order to get the kill.

Note that I didn't say anything about air grabs, and I wouldn't say that DK's sideB is reliable for grabbing opponents. I as Kirby, always wait for my opponents to fall into my grab range/touch the floor/hit my shield and grab them while they're committed to the attack before grabbing them. Characters who are susceptible to juggling always airdodge into me and try to roll away, upB away, or attack me and try to knock me back, but they never footstool my shield, which most of the time would be a smarter move.

theres also the fact that if your opponents ground speed, is higher than your airspeed, youre just putting yourself in the air for the opponent to follow you and put you in the EXACT same situation you were in 2 seconds ago.

its a mixup, but its not any better than any of the other options you could choose in said situation.

 

[Kewkky]

because footstooling requires you to do a move that doesnt defend yourself in the slightest.

think about falling into snake from the air at 100+%, and doing something that doesnt defend yourself.

you try to facejump him, he uptilts you and you die.

at least with the other options you are forcing them to have good timing, or respond correctly in order to get the kill.

I didn't mean for footstools to be used THAT way. That's just bad decision making! I meant it as an "oh, I just got knocked into the air by my opponent, and he is below me waiting to frametrap/punish my landing attempt with something! I'm close to the ledge and I'm not in kill %, but if he grabs me/punishes my landing, I'm going to eat more damage than just receiving one hit/aerial!", but if you footstool the guy you don't even get to suffer any damage, and you might make it to the ledge, which in almost every case, is much better for recovering than falling straight onto the stage against an opponent who loves following landing trajectories.

theres also the fact that if your opponents ground speed, is higher than your airspeed, youre just putting yourself in the air for the opponent to follow you and put you in the EXACT same situation you were in 2 seconds ago.

its a mixup, but its not any better than any of the other options you could choose in said situation.

That's the point of what I said. An option for people to use, that people never ever use as far as I've seen. People were saying "DK gets juggled and his landing options aren't safe (something along that line)", so I just pointed out that DK can also footstool the opponent's shields to land somewhere farther away, maybe some close platform, or the ledge, who knows.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That's the point of what I said. An option for people to use, that people never ever use as far as I've seen. People were saying "DK gets juggled and his landing options aren't safe (something along that line)", so I just pointed out that DK can also footstool the opponent's shields to land somewhere farther away, maybe some close platform, or the ledge, who knows.

Trying to convince some canadian DK to play my scrubby DDD online, I had him do that to me like once. The 2nd time it happened the footstool placed him behind me, I OoS Baired him then merely on reaction. It's an okay method, but... is it really any better than anything else you could do like mixing up FFing through a platform or merely landing on a platform.

 

[Kewkky]

Trying to convince some canadian DK to play my scrubby DDD online, I had him do that to me like once. The 2nd time it happened the footstool placed him behind me, I OoS Baired him then merely on reaction. It's an okay method, but... is it really any better than anything else you could do like mixing up FFing through a platform or merely landing on a platform.

Having DDD knock me away instead of grab me for the infinite is muuuuch better. He hits me, now I'm far from him and have time to start up my spacing!

And how did the footstool place him behind you? As soon as you footstool someone's shield, you jump without going into the whole footstool animation, meaning that you don't go lower than where you jump.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Basically, he did a short hop footstool and since DK does not have a very high jump at that point, he proceeded to move behind me from which I could OoS FH Bair.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK

Falco
Snake } -- This order can be anything, but they are in a tier of their own IMO
Diddy

Wario
Marth
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Olimar
Zero Suit Samus -- ZSS and Lucario are bascially interchangeable at 10 or 11.
Lucario
King Dedede -- I'm sure this will piss someone off, but Dedede is mediocre as a solo character.

Just trying to get a little discussion here... I dunno.

 

[deepseadiva]

Where's Ivysaur?????

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Where's Ivysaur?????

Hard countering Donkey Kong; also, in my avatar.

 

[deepseadiva]

lol @ Pubeysaur

 

[Ripple]

Hard countering Donkey Kong; .

I don think so

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don think so

You're probably right, but it's awfully close to it.

 

[Poltergust]

So how about that Yoshi? ^_^

And Ivysaur hard-countering anyone is surprising, but you're Reflex, so I believe you. >.>

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So how about that Yoshi? ^_^

And Ivysaur hard-countering anyone is surprising, but you're Reflex, so I believe you. >.>

I think Yoshi is an alright character; better than most give him credit for, anyway.

And, I wouldn't steer you wrong. The way Donkey Kong operates ends up screwing him against Ivysaur, big time. I can elaborate if you'd like.

 

[Poltergust]

I meant, do you guys believe that he will move up to mid-tier (along with Ike, of course).

And Reflex... do tell. *grabs snacks*