Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Actually, id like to hear as well :D
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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter Shaya
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Not immediately, but, eventually, yeah.I meant, do you guys believe that he will move up to mid-tier (along with Ike, of course).
And Reflex... do tell. *grabs snacks*
As for Donkey Kong...
Donkey Kong can't shield Razor Leaf forever, since the last thing he wants is a small(er) shield. N-Air shield-pokes and combos for days, juggle him with Dash Attacks and U-Airs, and keep at least decent spacing. The character gives you every opportunity to land Bullet Seed--Any shielded move gives it to you. Tilts are very dangerous to try against Ivysaur as a result. You can actually get him on reaction to his Down-B, as well. If his shield is even a little weak, you shield-poke with the initial hit of Bullet Seed. SDI'ing the initial hit is a little more troublesome as DK compared to most characters thanks to his large size.
Worse still, Ivysaur is pretty safe even if the first hit of Bullet Seed is blocked. Because DK puts his arms up during his shield, he is hit whenever he drops his shield, because lowering his arms puts him into the stream (and for a while; DK's hitstun animation involves him holding his arm out as if he just NEEDS to take 30+% every time). This forces DK to do one of two things: either Up-B (assumedly, anyway; it's never been done to me) dealing ~8% to Ivysaur, and potentially getting punished for it (with another Bullet Seed, even!), or roll away, resetting the situation.
tl;dr--For whatever reason, DK can do so little against Bullet Seed; it does massive damage to him when it hits, and even when it doesn't, DK can't do much to punish.
Also, Ivysaur edgeguarding works exceptionally well against Donkey Kong. If he goes low, just B-Air him until he realizes he has to come in from above, then land a U-Air, Up-B, or Bullet Seed. If he has to go the full distance to recover, he's D-Air bait.
Just don't run into B-Air, hold Up when you're Cargo'd, and play intelligently, and you will make a Donkey Kong rage with little effort or strategy at all.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Can the match-up really be that simple? It's no Yoshi vs. Squir- I mean Ganondorf. =P
It -really- shouldn't be; Bullet Seed is an overrated move that will get you hurt for using it against most characters, but Donkey Kong's terrible shield, horizontal recovery, huge frame, and lackluster aerial game (outside of B-Air, which doesn't do much to Ivysaur if she's not in the air) make it really bad.Can the match-up really be that simple? It's no Yoshi vs. Squir- I mean Ganondorf. =P
Ivysaur is good in general when she succeeds at shield-poking, and you can almost perpetually do that against DK.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
PT wrecks DK.
Only reason it's not completely awful for DK is Squirtle.
Only reason it's not completely awful for DK is Squirtle.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
which is like completely opposite of how it works for every other character.
lol
lol
Ripple
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I'm not sure what you mean by this considering DK does better against charizard than squirtle.
and we'll have to wait and see if reflex is right considering I don't agree with some of it
What he means is that Rock Smash shield-pokes every time it touches your shield and edgeguarding is about as simple as with Ivysaur.
That being said, I agree with you in this, and I think Charizard goes about even while Squirtle has some sort of advantage, but Charizard is easily my worst of the three Pokémon.
Ripple
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1. why are DK's always just shielding in your examples? If everyone was shielding against DK then we'd break shields a lot more. Dk is a punish character but you can't keep assuming he'll be in shield.
2. disagree with charizard, agree with squirtle
To be fair, Ivysaur will give you a -lot- of reasons to put your shield up.
Squirtle dies at low percents, but Donkey Kong gets juggled forever against Squirtle.
For Charizard, Rock Smash breaks (in the good way) on a lot of things, including Up-B recovery and tilts. Flamethrower makes for a decent spacing tool, and the characters have similar range; Donkey Kong is just safer on his moves.
They can both juggle each other well...I've always thought of Charizard and Donkey Kong as similar in execution, but Donkey Kong has the tools to do it much more efficiently in general, hah.
Ripple
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I honestly don't even know what DK can punish of squirtle's.
and it be funny to see me only going for smashes if youre only going for side b breaking the good way so we trade like 50% at once
You have the range advantage. Squirtle's not going to give you any obvious openings, but you just need to keep him out well. Guess with tilts and B-Air if you have to; it doesn't take a lot of damage before he's at KO percent, and you can take a lot more than he can.
You'd probably just destroy the rock in its entirety that way.
Maybe not, though. It'd look ridiculous either way, hah.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
My Charizard's wrecked every DK I've ever played, easily. He does a good job of keeping DK's shield low, which makes him vulnerable to Rock Smash.
Squirtle, on the other hand, has significantly less range than Charizard and has to get in close to fight DK, and DK's great at keeping Squirtle away. DK also is tough for Squirtle to kill, whereas Squirtle's easy for DK to kill.
If you find Squirtle to be easier to beat than Charizard, then you haven't played a good Charizard.
Enzo
Smash Lord
LOL? take NickRiddle for example, (I'm sure you know him maining ZSS), he puts mad work on characters that he "shouldn't be" if you look at it from the tier list point of view.
But will ZSS ever be placed much higher than she is rite now, i doubt it, just cos a very limited amount of players are beast with that character doesn't mean they should be THAT much higher on the tier list.
Putting Ike above Peach is outrageous
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
putting ike above peach is somewhat justified by tourney results.
In all fairness Ike and ness should be a lot higher than where they are and characters like bowser and lucas should be a crapton lower
In all fairness Ike and ness should be a lot higher than where they are and characters like bowser and lucas should be a crapton lower
Enzo
Smash Lord
Wow someone OBVIOUSLY ignored what ankoku said regardign tourney results, "If you think this is a tier list you're a moron". Just cos one or 2 people EXCEL with their characters to heavenly levels, does not SIGNIFICANTLY affect their tier list placement. NickRiddle is 2nd in my region and is able to beat top marths. Does that make ZSS higher than Marth under any circumstances. HELL ****ING NO.
People don't place characters above or below one another based on individual matchups. That would be stupid.
If ZSS could beat Marth in addition to a lot of other characters, maybe she would be better.
If ZSS couldn't beat other characters, she still might be better than Marth. It's a lot of relationships in one.
That being said, if NickRiddle started winning nationals left and right, and nobody else could do anywhere near as well with ZSS, it could still SIGNIFICANTLY affect their tier list placement.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ike should not jump up 10 spots. It would be Pit Syndrome all over again.
San thinks Ike should be around Luigi's current spot IIRC, I think Ike should be around Ness's spot. *shrugs* Take your pick, lol. The only certain thing is that he should be above bad characters like Lucas.
San thinks Ike should be around Luigi's current spot IIRC, I think Ike should be around Ness's spot. *shrugs* Take your pick, lol. The only certain thing is that he should be above bad characters like Lucas.
*Has set the bait, waits for typical reaction*
I don't get it. They don't seem to be similar.
People say Ike's raise is warranted due to rather good tournament results, which is something that Pit didn't have.
When Pit got his placement in the last tier list, people thought Pit was a solid character, which is something that Ike doesn't have.
Right back at you~
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
By "Pit Syndrome" I mean "overhyping one aspect to the point of insanity". For Pit, it was his "amazing planking game". For Ike, it would be "his consistent tournament results."
That's the term I'm given to any unwarranted, over the top jump anyways.
That's the term I'm given to any unwarranted, over the top jump anyways.
Ripple
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BBR tier list takes into account things they shouldn't and they don't take into account things they should.
(most) people hate on pit though. they think he is bad actually, while on the other hand, most everyone agrees that Ike is a decent character (except for DMG and inui of course)
a theoretical aspect means nothing if it can't be done in practice. however, ike's aspect is the very definition of practical; tournament results.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
But nobody cares about Inui. lol @ him saying the Diddy:Ike ratio is 99:1. Granted, if I played like an Ike from the first week of Brawl in a tournament against an up to day Diddy, I might think that as well.
What things do the BBR take in that they shouldn't, and vice-versa?
I don't remember a lot of talk about Pit's planking except from Pit players. As far as I could tell, Pit ended up being high on the list by merit of "but he has all these good properties," which is silly, because no one has really shown those properties to be of much worth in competitive play.
Lentini
Smash Rookie
Imo Light has got it right.
(national) Tourney results are in favor of Ike and Ness, but not for many charachers above them, what more do you need?
(national) Tourney results are in favor of Ike and Ness, but not for many charachers above them, what more do you need?
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Rawrrrrrr.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
It was because of how they looked at the rules IIRC. They decided "Hey, LGL rule? Pit is awesome at planking! Bump him up even though it's never been proven to work!"
That, and a few BBR members believe(d) he should be A tier from what I saw at the Pit Discussion topic.
EDIT: *hears bear trap snap shut*
All I remember is the latter. Some people just thought that Pit's fundamentals are underplayed and excellent, and a large group of players never said, "Hey, that's not right," so with little opposition, Pit proponents managed to get him much higher than he deserved.
Masashi did [and still does] quite clearly. If Earth can take top 20 at Apex with his Pit [mainly Pit] then it's not a huge leap to assume that Masashi has a shot at top 10. These properties have been shown; just not in the USA where there's simply no good Pit player right now. And don't say "playstyle differences" because the japanese are drastically better than the rest of the world in quite a few regards and Masashi still beats players that are top5 if not top3 of a character - many of them are S-Tier as well [Akira for MK, Souther for Snake, Rain for Falco, Nagahari for Diddy].
And I still believe that Ike is overrated and once people learn that you can SDI out of the jab and how to do it I expect him to drop again.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
You killed my kitty. T_TEDIT: *hears bear trap snap shut*
Ripple
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they need to take into account character popularity(which I doubt they truely do). if a character is popular then they have a higher chance of winning a tournament. granted it should be the only factor but it should at least be 25% of it. and ike is about as popular in brawl as link was in melee.,which is absurd.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
What happens in Japan is 100% irrelevant to this tier list. Pit has not proven himself worthy of his current level in NA, or even Europe if we consider Europe in this tier list.
Nor has Japan been proven to be better. One tournament where a few of their best players came over =/= proof. It would take multiple tournaments, with an equal sampling from both sides.
And people do SDI Ike's jab: still doesn't make much of a difference. We will land at least Jab 1->Jab 1, and most like the rest of the combo after that. And if you screw up just right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it), and try to jump away at the same time, you can end up being forced back to the ground, and taking landing lag on top of it. It's simply too good.
Nor has Japan been proven to be better. One tournament where a few of their best players came over =/= proof. It would take multiple tournaments, with an equal sampling from both sides.
And people do SDI Ike's jab: still doesn't make much of a difference. We will land at least Jab 1->Jab 1, and most like the rest of the combo after that. And if you screw up just right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it), and try to jump away at the same time, you can end up being forced back to the ground, and taking landing lag on top of it. It's simply too good.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
just for the sake of being even across the board, Im only going to use american tourney players for this example. Yes i know excel and TKD live in PR and Mex, respectively, but TKD goes to american tourneys, and PR is technically part of the USA
Will
King Beef/Excel
TKD
BigLou
Kain
Reflex
Espy/__X__
Shaky
KingKong
FAE/Nasty
San
Poltergust
I was going to use Mario in this example but i really cant think of any high level mario players atm.
How would you put these players in a list of skill and why do you think that that list is different from the list of the characters that siad players play.
Will
TKD
San
Espy/__X__
BigLou
Reflex
Shaky
KB
Polt
Kain
KingKong
FAE
DK
Fox
Ike
Sonic
Luigi
PT
Ness
Peach
Yoshi
Wolf
Bowser
Lucas
Personally since were looking at the characters at the top of the metagame, I really dont see a problem with my list.
Which brings me to another point. Aside from the general consensus that wolfs bair, smashes, and gun are all above average. Why, or what is keeping him at his current spot and from dropping considerably lower than he is now?
Will
King Beef/Excel
TKD
BigLou
Kain
Reflex
Espy/__X__
Shaky
KingKong
FAE/Nasty
San
Poltergust
I was going to use Mario in this example but i really cant think of any high level mario players atm.
How would you put these players in a list of skill and why do you think that that list is different from the list of the characters that siad players play.
Will
TKD
San
Espy/__X__
BigLou
Reflex
Shaky
KB
Polt
Kain
KingKong
FAE
DK
Fox
Ike
Sonic
Luigi
PT
Ness
Peach
Yoshi
Wolf
Bowser
Lucas
Personally since were looking at the characters at the top of the metagame, I really dont see a problem with my list.
Which brings me to another point. Aside from the general consensus that wolfs bair, smashes, and gun are all above average. Why, or what is keeping him at his current spot and from dropping considerably lower than he is now?
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Boss for Mario: he doesn't use Mario as much anymore, but he's still good.
And San for top of that list: his placings at MLG + APEX support him being on the top of that list.
And San for top of that list: his placings at MLG + APEX support him being on the top of that list.
You forgot to put Yoshi for Poltergust.
Everyone, he posted the characters to match people with their characters, not to list who he thinks is better.
That's obvious, because otherwise I would be at the top of the list.
Everyone, he posted the characters to match people with their characters, not to list who he thinks is better.
That's obvious, because otherwise I would be at the top of the list.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
What have TKD's placings been at the huge, 200+ tournaments? I honestly don't have a clue.
Poltergust
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure I don't main Peach. >_>
I'm not sure if he's ever been to such a large tournament but he has the best wins by far out of that list: Tyrant, DEHF, ChuDat - all in tournament of course and with Fox
Edit: Oh, OK - well then I'd say:
Cable =~ Will
Choice =~ Kain
And p. sure there are better Peaches.
To be fair, I'm not sure a lot of potential wins get reported if it isn't an exceptionally large tournament.I'm not sure if he's ever been to such a large tournament but he has the best wins by far out of that list: Tyrant, DEHF, ChuDat - all in tournament of course and with Fox
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