The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[The Truth!]

lmao the implied shock or anger in that post is hilarious. Did you post that somewhere else? Those arent the words of anyone in here, I was just quoting people from elsewhere. Personally I would agree that even if he is underrated he doesnt currently have the necessary tournament performance to back up a high tier position.

However I think thats more to do with lack of represenation much more so than a lack of potential. I could potentialy see him entering high tier at some point should he obtain that rep and yes, potentially as someone comparable to lucario or even around pika and oli. Is that the case now or in the near future? no.

Also I dont mean to imply that hard counters shouldnt be considered. I dont think anyones said that. A characters potential can still exist in spite of that, I think its false to say otherwise. However yes the two hard counters still do always loom around when you consider Fox's viability.

 

[DMG]

Even IF he had the tournament results to back up a move like that, he certainly doesn't have a matchup spread that would back that up. That's what Im saying, he could win the next MLGs and I would still not put him in A tier because he's not that good.

 

[The Truth!]

Just so Im clear on the disagreement, when you say matchup spread are you simply referring to his hard counters? Or do you think Fox does not do well against the rest of the cast as well. Outside ICs and Pika (shiek including non high tiers) it sounds like his worst MU according to you is wario, because Ive not heard about him having a particularly difficult time against anyone else.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox beats ZSS, Lucario and G&W but I don't think Marth and Snake are even and Pikachu is probably worse than just 4/6. Overall low B-Tier looks like a good place for Fox imo and I think he's better than G&W, Peach, ROB, DK, Kirby and Lucario.

Edit: Same thing for Wolf except he doesn't beat ZSS but goes even with Marth instead.

 

[DMG]

His matchup spread against higher tiered characters isn't that strong. He doesn't beat many people above him, mostly going slightly worse than even or 4:6 with a few evens scattered. He's got Falco, Wario, Marth, and IC's to worry about as clear disadvantages. MK you could group along with them, I mean you sometimes get the claim that he can go 45:55 but very few people advocate that. Snake you hear everything from 4:6 to 6:4. I think Snake wins, some SDI in important places gets rid of the sting. The main question with Diddy is how the crap is Fox supposed to approach him? Glide Toss or regular toss OOS stops a lot. Fox doesn't outrange him in the air, and going wayy above Diddy is also risky because of traps he can create when you have to come down. Diddy also gets some nasty edgeguarding tools on Fox, making his killing issue not as prominent.

Then you get into B Tier. Dedede IDK, it feels evenish or in Fox's favor. Past that, everything else looks slightly against him or definitely against him. Pika, Olimar, Lucario, ZSS, everyone in B tier but Dedede he probably can't manage even against (even being 50-50 not 45:55 or 55:45). G&W definitely wins if there is no LGL. With one, I still think it's a tad in his favor. His aerial range, along with being unphased with laser camping, leaves Fox hard pressed to get to him.

C tier is friendlier, but not a gimme for Fox in any way. TL, Pit, and ZSS at worst go even with him; ZSS in particular I fail to see what he has to win against her. Lasers? Psh lol. Jump over her? Deal with Uair, Bair, Upb. Regular approaching, the stuff Fox is bad at? Yeah.

Kirby and ROB he can do well against. Probably even with both. That kind of overall matchup spread does not scream A tier at all. If anything, it screams C tier somewhere in the middle probably.

Gheb lol you and your crazy opinions. Lucario could go even with him, ZSS and G&W outright losing? How does he approach them? Lasers will not solve everything; look at Falco Lasers can't do all the work. At best, over Peach, DK, Kirby, and ROB. I don't see him going over G&W anytime soon because of his hard counters pooping all over him too easily.

 

[Luxor]

About Fox vs. Diddy:

Why on earth would Fox be approaching?

Fox v. Sheik/Pika isn't bad either. Fox v. Falco is 50:50 according to most sources.

 

[DMG]

Are you telling me Fox is gonna laser camp when he's a stock down? Or lets say that he's not a stock down, but down quite a bit in %. Lasers can't solve everything for you. Diddy gets close, WAT DO?!? Get hard limited is what you do lol. It's like saying you'll Laser camp MK the whole time; it's unrealistic because he's not Wario-like in avoiding people. His method of trying to outmaneuver people onstage is not that strong.

Fox vs Shiek... Dear lord that matchup. 7:3 REALLY isn't a stretch. It's really REALLY bad even if you are great at SDIing. Shiek closes the gap too fast for Fox to reliably say "I can safely laser camp you the entire match." She also has no issue edgeguarding him regardless of how he approaches the stage/edge. This is if he doesn't outright die from Tilt Lock to Usmash. What does he have on her? Psh. Usmash and being able to pressure her recovery.

Fox vs Pika... This one actually is probably more manageable because Pika has to get a grab and he can't rely on approaching with projectiles. Still, it's ****. 4:6 is being VERY nice for Fox lol. It's probably 65:35 ish, it feels like DK vs Wario (although Wario gets guaranteed grab setups at lower %'s with stuff like Bite making platform camping/running away not as viable). There's no way you could label this as 6:4 unless you relabel a ton of "actual" 6:4 matchups into something else. This and Shiek are HARD matchups for Fox, there's no contest unless your definition of hard is over the 65:35/7:3 mark.

Fox vs Falco? I don't know how that could be anything better than 55:45 Falco favor. Falco just a much better character than Fox, and getting a free CG to follow up is pretty powerful compared to what Fox gets.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS loses to Fox 6/4. DMG: you have the dynamic of the match-up all wrong. It isn't Fox fighting to approach ZSS (and even if it was, she couldn't keep him out). Its more like their respective camping tools aren't sufficent due to their ground speed, so it ends up being a very aggressive match-up and Fox just has better more flexible tools for that. Very easy for her to gimp Fox though.

 

[The Truth!]

Im not sure how much consensus those ratios have according to their mains. Ive heard shiek is worse than pika, so shiek and pika look correct. But most great Fox and Falco players have put Fox-Falco at 50-50 (fox reliably kills falco a lot earlier). TKD put Fox-Wario as even, since you have your own opinions on it take it as you will. Marth Ive heard is the same in difficulty as Falco-Marth.

ICs are bad though and Snake bad-ish from what Ive heard.

I dont know about Fox-Diddy at all, but Ive never heard Fox's complain about it. I also dont see how Fox loses to most B tiers. Ill wait for mains to chime in with better info, but from a cursory glace...Olimar I can see as even. DDD Ill agree with your opinion. Fox likely kills Lucario early harming his aura, and probably destroys on the ground (and if attempted good luck trying to camp). I recall that Z's Fox (his secondary) beat Stauffy not very long ago, not sure what the details on those matches are. GW seems lol, I dont see how GW even touches a mobile character like fox, and then hed need planking in order to just go even.

 

[DMG]

ZSS... loses to Fox? Lol. That is VERY hard to believe. That matchup being even already sounds like a stretch, but outright losing?

Fox vs Marth is somewhat similar to Falco vs Marth, but just worse for Fox. Fox doesn't have a free tool to get damage like CG to follow up, and his lasers don't stop people in their tracks. It's much easier getting close up to Fox than Falco because of this, and once they do get close there's no contest Falco has better up close fighting tools. He has the better Usmash, but a weaker everything else besides maybe Dtilt. Falco is GREAT and arguably goes even with Marth. Fox, even hyped up by everyone, is basically a worse Falco and I would find it hard to believe he does the same in the matchup.

"Fox isn't a very viable character when used alone, but with a secondary to take care his impossible matchups like Pikachu, he is extremely good. I feel it is inaccurate to "ignore" some really hard counters he has when taking his position into the tier list into account. if not for the Pikachu and IC matchups, i'd put him into High tier, but because of it, I keep him in the smack center of mid tier."

This explains Fox perfectly. His multiple hard counters keep him down from ever having a high spot. The same as Dedede and Wario (along with a string of his other less than favorable matchups) realistically limits any strong growth DK could have. Or how Marth holds back Ness. As bad as G&W is, he doesn't have multiple 65:35 or worse matchups. He has MK, and to a lesser degree Marth, and everything else at that point is at worst 6:4 against him.

As for Fox vs Wario, that matchup is fun. Fox doesn't have anything good on Wario. He can't try running away and laser camping because he can't match Wario's air speed to get past him. Wario also doesn't mind getting simple easier to land moves like Bite or Grab and taking the fight offstage instead of going for the jugular right away. Fox has to Hit, Hit, Hit, or Laser a crap ton to match Wario. And then figure out how in the world to land an Usmash. If I go to the same tournament as TKD, and got some cash, I would MM him in that matchup.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DMG:

I think you are severely underestimating Fox's mobility, often completely ignoring how good it is.

 

[DMG]

No, his "mobility" people refer to isn't that strong. He doesn't have strong cross ups like Side B as Falco or going through with Tornado or going above and past people. He can go above above people, but so what he can't race past you horizontally. When he tries to get around, it's very noticeable. Full Hop, DJ, whatever he chooses it's nothing blindingly fast or unpredictable.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnSweQB1SI

Perfect example. People say "Oh man, Fox is so fluid and fast and mobile" and yet he's just doing the same things over and over again. Djing and mixing up whether to fast fall, use an aerial, or airdodge. Imagine how many times Fox would have been caught offguard if he just went up and shuttle looped. Look at 5:18 for example, no one thinks to do that anytime he wants to go to the air. Or moved under Fox anytime he went to the air. That's like saying Lucario jumping up above people, and threatening to Dair or B reverse/fast fall airdodge is strong.

Considering I play Wario, yes maybe it's hard for me to see how someone with much worse running away or camping tools is supposed to stay so ridiculously safe.

 

[Spelt]

fox's side b isn't as good as falco, but it can still do the same thing as falco's, you just need to jump slightly higher to do it. and you can also do it across platforms or run off the ledge and side b right back on stage and get the version with less lag.

 

[DMG]

Lower priority, slower both in movement and in startup. He can't nearly cross up as many people with that as Falco can.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Yikes DMG. Are there any mid tier characters you DO like? xD
I do agree though that Fox's horizontal air mobility is pretty poor

When is the next tier list coming out? For some reason I thought it was today...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yo DMG your theorycraft be jank yo

Yeah Ness is awful and he only has one ledge-hop and has bad recovery and gets grab-released by 90% of the cast or whatever.

Ike only has one move, can't approach, gets gimped by everyone, and loses to all top tiers 7/3 or worse.

Fox gets ***** by MK and Wario, and can't win tournaments because of Pikachu.

In melee, jigglypuff loses to fox 65:35 because all you have to do is uair her!

...except none of this stuff is actually happening. Your theorycraft is based on year-old misconceptions and ideas that just aren't playing out in practice. Practice is better than paper. Actions speak louder than words. Somehow, Ness, Fox, Ike, gimmicky ZSS, etc. are doing pretty well in tournaments given that htey have like one main each. You might even argue that recently some of them have performed better than other "staple" high tiers like Dedede.

I'm not even sure what else to say. You can't say "Fox doesn't have great mobility" when in the very video you linked, Tyrant was constantly chasing him. It just doesn't work that way, you have to do better than that.

You can't just provide a laundry list of bad qualities and link a video and point out a place in which Tyrant should have shuttle looped and go "see? He bad." People are not machines. Some things are harder to punish in practice than they are on the forums. MK gets away with **** like this all the time and it's part of the reason he's so good.

I reject the notion that it's possible to see how good and bad characters are based on information found in debug mode or anecdotes like "Fox's side-b can't cross up, Fox can't cross up." That says nothing about anything.

 

[Poltergust]

any character with a shield beats zss.
sry yoshi

...It's even.

Anyways, no comment on Fox. To be honest, if I ever encounter one in a tournament I'd just bust out my Sheik.

 

[san.]

Ike has me, Mr. Doom, theboredone, and Ryo doing pretty well as far as tournament placements go. Doesn't seem like a 1 hit wonder to me.

Ryo at a recent Florida tourney got 5th out of ~50 where in the top 8, 5 people used MK. He got Seibrik to last hit last match, beat DDDs and Shaky, and was beating/doing well against Hrnut and Redhalberd's snakes in MMs.

Mr. Doom gets top 8 or above every tourney result I see him in, and Bored, even though I only see him attend large tourneys (100+ people) where it's difficult to get top 8, still does very well each time.

Not to mention others who beat known ICs in MMs and great players who occasionally use Ike but don't main him.

 

[DMG]

Mid tier I like? Not many of them. Anyone below DK on the list isn't competitively viable IMO. DK is shaky at best because of Dedede and Wario. Past him or Peach (she's a big stretch at that), no one really looks that great because even if they have ok matchup spreads with the top, they always have some BS matchups that hold them back. Fox/Wolf/Luigi/Peach/etc.

Yes, you get results from San or Shaky or Poltergust or Main of said character. But how many of the results stem purely from the character being rated too low, and not some combination of "novelty" effect and player skill? Like I mentioned earlier, there was a Cali tournament (actually quite a bit ago, nothing recent) with some pretty good people attending where someone got 7th IIRC... with Ganondorf. Ganondorf. How good is Ganondorf? Awful. How in the hell did he get 7th? Psh, I don't even want to know.

I think frankly gameplay and demonstrations of whatever potential people seem to see is better than just pointing to results. Results tell you what happened, not WHY it happened. The why part matters the most. If I saw gameplay of Fox's great mobility, I would go "Holy Cow he's strong here". All I see, whether playing or watching someone else, is a character with limited options that he has to rely on to get around, that aren't that strong and yet people just decide not to challenge him head on.

Edit: Ike in particular is quite dangerous if you don't know the matchup you have with him. He's no Yoshi lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually, "what" happens more than "why." TKD walked away from that tournament with cash. The MK he beat walked away with less cash than TKD. TKD plays Fox.

Why does MK win tournaments? Because people have not mastered SDI-ing Tornado? Because no one punishes shielded grounded shuttle loops? MK wins tournaments all the time. A ton of the stuff that makes him so good is actually technically punishable. He gets away with stuff like that all the time.

Like it or not, the results ARE a demonstration of a character's capability. It doesn't matter how TKD won, just that he did (barring Tyrant just quitting the game or not taking it seriously). TKD won. TKD does well a majority of the time. Fox is capable of doing well in a tournament setting.

Put another way, there is nothing beyond tournaments. There's no extra level. There's no other castle. If you win a tournament, you just won. You have nothing to prove (mostly because you just did). TKD won. There's literally nothing else he can do, except win again (which he actually did, the next weekend).

So what do you want? Do you want an arbitrary demonstration of Fox's good qualities? I'm not sure what good that will actually do. I'd rather just see him walk away with a couple hundred bucks in cash.

 

[DMG]

You can't SDI tornado. Proven impossible to do so. People pop out of tornado based on weight/fall speed, and also if they hit certain parts of tornado that will push them out or not.

It does matter how he won. It also matters who he plays against. How many Pika's and Shieks and IC's does he willingly play with Fox in tournament, and how often do they come up (He also plays MK, I'm nearly positive he doesn't wing it with Fox alone)? DK can do fine if no one picks Dedede, it doesn't change that he has the problem. I'm not saying he has to win every single match every round against a hard counter over and over to prove the character is good, I'm just saying that realistically yes these characters can "sneak in" results, but it's clear they shouldn't be able to.

 

[Jim Morrison]

DMG why do you have not using a colourered title?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'll humor you for a second. TKD uses a secondary, MK, for his worst match-ups (ICs and Shiek, pretty sure he just goes Fox for Pikachu, but I'm not sure) and for Rainbow Cruise MK CPs. He doesn't go it alone.

Here are the results from MLG Raleigh:

1: Mew2King (MW)- Meta Knight - $2,500
2: LeeMartin (S) - Toon Link/Meta Knight/Lucario - $1,500
3: Felix (WC) - Diddy Kong - $1,000
4: Seibrik (S)- Meta Knight - $700
5: NickRiddle (S) - Zero Suit Samus - $500
6: TyRaNt (WC)- Meta Knight - $350
7: DEHF (WC) - Falco - $250
8: Havok (WC)- Meta Knight/Marth - $200

In top 8, two players used more than one character. DEHF went solo Falco, despite the fact that he has an unwinnable match-up with Pikachu. Would he have used a secondary to fight vs. Pikachu? Who knows? He didn't actually play one. Guess Falco's not that great.

Nick Riddle went solo ZSS. Falco's generally not considered to be such a hot match-up but somehow ZSS pulled the win. ZSS just got lucky, DEHF played the match-up wrong, I guess, ZSS isn't really that good. He didn't win $500 or anything, either.

APEX 2010 results:
1: DEHF
2: Brood
3: mew2king
4: Lee Martin
5: Ally
5: lain
7: Rain
7: Atomsk

Hey, look, Falco took first place. That's all well and good, but again, no pesky Pikachus or ICs in Larry's bracket. Falco's not very good, he just got lucky. Hey, check it out, rain is up there too. Also, Atomsk and Lee Martin used three characters each. Going down the list a little more, we see that Anti, Shugo, Sweet Pea, and Earth also used secondary characters likely to enhance their capability of winning or to dodge bad situations.

Players, even top tier characters, use secondaries, and characters with unwinnable match-ups place top 5 and do so frequently. So TKD used MK to dodge a few bad eggs. So what? There are characters in Fox's tier that couldn't even do that, they'd end up using their secondaries 90% of the time.

 

[DMG]

I've been changing it. It started when my premium membership expired actually. Had it on researcher, then that, then off, etc.

Ok so Fox won some money. How often does he win money? Who does he have to beat to get the money? Do his opponents know the matchup well? Are they on a fairly similar level? Get a positive answer for those, and yes that would prove his worth. It's not always "Yes he did this and that" but about the circumstances of the placement.

Where would you place him? I don't see him getting into B tier anytime soon unless people underrate G&W and think Fox is better than TL and maybe ZSS.

LOL. Using secondary characters speaks about the PLAYER's ability, not the characters. You don't factor in tier lists on the basis of "I can cover my back with a secondary" because then every character could rise to 2nd best if they had a pocket MK. Tier list is each character on their own against someone else. No MK to back up DK, no help for Fox, etc. Actually, using a secondary in the first place could identify some problems the character has; why is the person uncomfortable with using the character in that situation? Is it a bad matchup? How bad? Does he know it? Would his secondary probably do better?

If Falco needs a secondary, what does it say? That he's not the best character in the game. It doesn't mean he is bad, but that he is clearly not at that level. Now obviously no other character is at that level. But comparatively you can look at how many matchups they would realistically have to do this, and who would have to cover it, and tell "Hey, maybe Fox has more trouble than DK if he has to worry about XYZ and DK only has AB".

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Peach, Fox, and GaW are top of mid tier somewhere, and are all three better than TL.

Not well-known really but TKD was ranked in socal for a long time. Socal is a very competitive region. TJ moved to it's own PR rankings and he became #1 there. I'd guess that he beats good players pretty regularly. I actually know he has, since we've all seen the videos (DEHF, Tyrant, there are more).

You'd be hard-pressed to argue he can't beat good players with Fox when there is video evidence sitting on Youtube right now that he in fact, has.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uh, DK loses to a variety of top tier characters and sucks **** vs some mid tiers like ZSS in addition to his unwinnable match-up with Dedede. Plus DK has never managed to win two regional tournaments in one month.

 

[DMG]

Fox loses to a variety of top tiers and sucks butt vs Mid Low tiers like Shiek, in addition to IC's and Pika.

C whut I did thar?

DK doesn't do well, why? Mostly cause of Dedede right? Well what if you use MK for Dedede? That would cover him. If you can make the argument that MK/someone else can boost Fox, I can certainly use that for other characters around him. Luigi sure would like MK behind him, TL would, G&W would, ZSS would, etc. Sure, maybe certain characters have to use them more, but at that point you are talking about how often a character has to use a crutch instead of talking about how good/bad the **** character is WITHOUT the crutch.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The character is apparently no better or worse off than Falco without the crutch.

Your assertion that Fox loses to a variety of top tiers is outdated and silly. Good players who have experienced the match-up put Fox-MK pretty close. Fox-Snake is pretty close. Fox-Falco is close. Fox-Marth is close. Fox-ICs is bad. Wario and Diddy I'm not sure but I can't see them as being unwinnable, perhaps slight disadvantages. I know TKD says Wario is even.

What top tiers are you talking about? Your opinion seems to differ greatly from the status quo.

 

[DMG]

Lol. Nope, because Fox also has Shiek to worry about. that's 3-2, and his 3 are stronger counters than Falco's 2 because Falco definitely got better tools against them than Fox.

Either way, it doesn't matter. Fox a crappy character, I'm glad the only bad matchups I gotta worry about are MK Marth

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik isn't that bad for Fox. Not worse than a good D3 that knows the match-up is for Wario.

 

[DMG]

???

Shiek can tilt lock to Usmash, while outranging Fox on the ground.

She can crawl under lasers and has the best Dash Shield in the game.

She also outranges him in the air.

He literally has nothing on her. At all. She can stuff approaches with her own moves fairly easily; Utilt beating out Dair was quite dumb to watch. All he has is being able to edgeguard a character that already normally struggles at recovering. That's about it. Realistically what is he gonna do, try DJing everywhere hoping not to get *****? He's no Wario, get outta the air Fox you can't fly.

I'll let you borrow some of my SDI to try and get out of the Ftilt lock. It won't save you, but you might as well get a sandwich til he goes for the Usmash.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Guys, Fox really is THAT good. I'm just kidding with all you.

~DMG on Budget_Player_Cadet's account

 

[Doc King]

Well, Fox is has pretty good combos and strategies that he can use in tourney play like shine gimps, up or down throw to an air attack, utilt, etc.

 

[Ripple]

why the hate on DK? he only has 2 bad matchups.

where did this "ZSS destroys DK" come from? that claim is utterly ridiculous. what does ZSS do to DK that makes her "destroy" DK?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

why the hate on DK? he only has 2 bad matchups.

where did this "ZSS destroys DK" come from? that claim is utterly ridiculous. what does ZSS do to DK that makes her "destroy" DK?

If you want an explanation from someone you will actually listen to, you can ask in Nick Riddle's interview thread in the ZSS forums.

What he will say, to save you time:

1. chain grab
2. Very big easy target for ZSS' combo and string game
3. Dsmash offstage when DK tries to recover to footstool. Very easy gimp. This I am confused about but he says he's making a video soon.

I can ask him to post here if you want.

 

[Doc King]

Ripple, I think DK has lowered because of his difficulties with chainthrows like Dedede and Falco and the fact that he doesn't have many combos in him.

 

[Kewkky]

ZSS doesn't destroy DK, but it's not even either. It's just a small/average advantage on ZSS's favor, nothing more... Only way a character can destroy someone else is if they have a tactic/move/trick that works almost anywhere (meaning it can't be situational), it's humanly possible to execute, the tactic can be devastating, and/or the opponent is hopeless/has a very hard time getting around the tactic.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In this case I think it's a very easy gimp. Like, DK can't really recover. That's what Nick said to us anyway. I've linked him this thread. Hopefully he'll clarify soon.

 

[Magik0722]

Dk has a cg on zss right?

 

[Ripple]

DK doesn't really care about the falco chain grab. its not like he's anywhere near death %. easier to just take 30% in lasers.

ZSS' either. it does very low % and possibly only leads to a different throw to up air /up air again.

DK takes a lot from other characters but he dishes a lot out too. ZSS' d smash also doesn't hit under DK's ledge snap area. if DK has to use his up-b from anywhere far away then yes it'll hit but DK doesn't get hit out to the side very far due to his weight and momentum.

it's like the argument some time ago when people said ness' match up with DK isn't too bad because he can spike him. they didn't take into account what it takes to get DK off stage far enough where he'd use his up-b and be very vulnerable