The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[san.]

The question is, who would Lucas be rising above? After reading the BBR Discussions and listening to many people's opinions along with my own thoughts, it is clear that Lucas has a possible chance of rising above Bowser (mostly due to Bowser going down), but at the same time, Yoshi is competing for his own increase.

And tbqh, haven't seen much from Lucas that was any different from last tier list, other than character boards agreeing a few matchups to be slightly better or something. I have heard of a few Lucas players doing pretty decent which is indicative of his position as far as I know, but not much more.

I am still perplexed by sheik, because she seems like she's overrated at the moment, but that sounds preposterous if you look at the things she can theoretically do.. Although stagnancy isn't really bad, just not good when you're in such a low spot.

 

[Deleted member]

Just gonna say, I effing hate Wolf; he's my least favorite MU as Marth.
I don't see how he's a particularly good character though, or as good as Fox. Fox has a better recovery, a better kill move (with a good set-up), a better projectile, and better tools to skate around the things that make his and Wolf's bad MUs so bad.

Fox has only ONE good kill move, while Wolf has several.

Why you think Fox's Laser is better than Wolf's is beyond me.

Wolf has plenty of tools to deal with his bad MU's. Go watch Choice vs. Michael Hey. Also, Wolf's shine is godly.

I don't see why Ness is more appealing than Lucas, but that's just my opinion. One of Lucas's biggest issues is rep, but the same can be said for Fox.

 

[Spelt]

lol @ you still using Fox's lack of kill moves as an argument.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol @ people thinking Fox is better at killing than Wolf.

Now this thread is getting interesting.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Usmash OoS or Usmash in general is just that good though. Dsmash works too, just rack up an extra 20% or so.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Lol @ people thinking Fox is better at killing than Wolf.
Now this thread is getting interesting.

You'll have to tell us then what kills with wolf? I honestly do not see that many options that wolf has at getting kills or even setting up for them. Dsmash appears to be his strongest kill move, however, I do not see many moves setting up into that apart from a jab. Fsmash, Usmash, Bair, Fair, Uair would appear to be his next strongest kills moves yet I never see them kill at any decent percents. yet fsmash is more of a punisher if I am correct, and bair would be so staled from spacing.

Fox's kill move is Usmash easily, but that has a few set-ups from what I know of. Dair, OoS, or Weak Nair. And all of these set-ups can be done from out of shield.

 

[deepseadiva]

Lol @ people thinking Fox is better at killing than Wolf.

People are cautious at 100% against Wolf.

People are ****ing sweating balls at 100% against Fox. Hell, 90%. 80%!!

 

[uhmuzing]

Not to mention how well grounded dair sets it up, and how good it is out of his dash.
The early hits of falling fair can set it up as well. I did it just a while ago with style.

Why you think Fox's Laser is better than Wolf's is beyond me.

Wolf has plenty of tools to deal with his bad MU's. Go watch Choice vs. Michael Hey. Also, Wolf's shine is godly.

I don't see why Ness is more appealing than Lucas, but that's just my opinion. One of Lucas's biggest issues is rep, but the same can be said for Fox.

I think it's a better projectile because it can do what Wolf's can't - force an approach. Wolf's is slow and easily PS'd. It has uses, but Fox gets more use out of his because it's fast and can build up damage quickly inbetween attacks and PSing it doesn't work. It also makes sure Fox's moveset is always fresh because it's that much easier to land repeatedly. The only thing it can't do is set-up attacks, which is admittedly a good property of a projectile.

Link me please. I'm not getting any results. :/

Ness is fun imo lol. He functions alot differently than Lucas.

 

[Deleted member]

You'll have to tell us then what kills with wolf? I honestly do not see that many options that wolf has at getting kills or even setting up for them. Dsmash appears to be his strongest kill move, however, I do not see many moves setting up into that apart from a jab. Fsmash, Usmash, Bair, Fair, Uair would appear to be his next strongest kills moves yet I never see them kill at any decent percents. yet fsmash is more of a punisher if I am correct, and bair would be so staled from spacing.

Fox's kill move is Usmash easily, but that has a few set-ups from what I know of. Dair, OoS, or Weak Nair. And all of these set-ups can be done from out of shield.

Dsmash is probably the best kill move. I prefer to set up into it with nair, actually. If you hit with the last few hits of the attack, it combos into jab, his tilts, and I've done it with down smash as well. I wouldn't exactly say it's a true combo, but it has worked wonders for me.

I've also killed plenty with Fair, which is also a useful tool against D3. Fsmash is risky, but it can kill as well. Up-smash OoS is a great punish. Up-tilt is actually not bad for killing either. You get the sweet spot at the tip of his boot, which makes battlefield great when you got your opponent above you on the side platforms.

Oh, and sweet spotted side-B. Wolf has a grab release on some characters that set up into that.

@Dragonblooded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_BES0Y-TYQ

Edit: Can't believe I forgot to mention Bair, lol. It's great for both spacing and killing.

 

[Conviction]

Woooooooow Usmash being Fox's ONLY killing move, I'll say this again

Kill Moves
____________________
Usmash (best kill move)
Dsmash
Bair
Uair
Fsmash (lol good luck landing this)

I can't believe this is even a discussion, but did say "how is Fox's laser better than Wolf's?"
Have you seen a Fox press B?
Can wolf 2 or 3 lasers in a short hop?
Can he shoot 5 in a full hop?
Is his laser rapid fire?
Only thing Wolf can do with his laser that Fox can't mobility wise is moving while firing which doesn't really matter when you have Fox's SH air time plus his running speed.
Is Wolf's Dsmash stronger than Snake's Utilt? If it isn't it isn't stronger than Fox's Usmash defiantly.

Waiting for your response now. I didn't want to do this Fox vs. Wolf thing (not like it isn't a touchy subject to begin with) with you again because we've done MORE THAN 3 TIMES now, and it's like what I or any other Fox tells you are blind too.

 

[The Truth!]

Fox has high tier potential, hes the most underrated character atm. Fox's everything is better than wolfs except for like, max horizontal air speed. I dont see any issue with tossing wolf into low tier.

 

[Conviction]

Lol I would pick up for LT tournies for free money if he does get in there. *Even though I don't personally think he is that bad but it would be pretty funny.*

 

[Deleted member]

Woooooooow Usmash being Fox's ONLY killing move, I'll say this again

Kill Moves
____________________
Usmash (best kill move)
Dsmash
Bair
Uair
Fsmash (lol good luck landing this)

I can't believe this is even a discussion, but did say "how is Fox's laser better than Wolf's?"
Have you seen a Fox press B?
Can wolf 2 or 3 lasers in a short hop?
Can he shoot 5 in a full hop?
Is his laser rapid fire?
Only thing Wolf can do with his laser that Fox can't mobility wise is moving while firing which doesn't really matter when you have Fox's SH air time plus his running speed.
Is Wolf's Dsmash stronger than Snake's Utilt? If it isn't it isn't stronger than Fox's Usmash defiantly.

Waiting for your response now. I didn't want to do this Fox vs. Wolf thing (not like it isn't a touchy subject to begin with) with you again because we've done MORE THAN 3 TIMES now, and it's like what I or any other Fox tells you are blind too.

Fox may have other kill moves, but they aren't very reliable. And I still think Wolf has the better laser given that it does a lot more damage per hit, has a large hitbox, and has hitstun, which is a major reason why I like Wolf's. Not to mention it's a melee attack at close range followed by the laser itself.

Edit: Fun fact in that Hilt says Wolf is the closest character to out-camping Olimar.

I'm not arguing that Wolf has a stronger kill move than UpSmash. Wolf has more KILLING OPTIONS, which in turn makes him more effective at taking the opponents stock.

@The Truth. Honestly? Why do you believe that? I hope to God you're trolling.

 

[Spelt]

ivysaur outcamps olimar

 

[Conviction]

Fox may have other kill moves, but they aren't very reliable. And I still think Wolf has the better laser given that it does a lot more damage per hit, has a large hitbox, and has hitstun, which is a major reason why I like Wolf's. Not to mention it's a melee attack at close range followed by the laser itself.

Edit: Fun fact in that Hilt says Wolf is the closest character to out-camping Olimar.

I'm not arguing that Wolf has a stronger kill move than UpSmash. Wolf has more KILLING OPTIONS, which in turn makes him more effective at taking the opponents stock.

@The Truth. Honestly? Why do you believe that? I hope to God you're trolling.

Dsmash isn't reliable?
......
...
Disregarding Fsmash all are those are reliable.

Gun hitbox doesn't matter if you are forcing some one to approach from a distance.
Also 3 laser's equal 1 of yours and we can fire 3 more and then some.

That's great for Hilt. What does it have to do with anything?

And no Fox has enough set-ups to take a stock easily or he wouldn't be such a great killer.

 

[DanGR]

ivysaur outcamps olimar

What makes you think this?

 

[Deleted member]

That's great for Hilt. What does it have to do with anything?

It's making a point that Wolf has a great camping game.

I'm done with this argument since it seems nothing is getting through to either side. I've seen it time and time again and nobody seems to take anything away from it. The other wolves have given up discussing it and now I know why. People are stuck in the 2008 mentality and won't give Wolf a chance. It's stupid.

 

[Spelt]

razor leaf stops pikmin and hurts them.
and because it lasts so long it can stop multiple pikmin before disappearing

 

[Ishiey]

I dont see any issue with tossing wolf into low tier.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

Also, stfu about Wolf vs Fox on the tier list, it's ****ing stupid. Both are usable in tournament and have a fairly problematic matchup or two (not unwinnable). They clearly have different strengths and weaknesses, why the **** do they need to be compared, it's like comparing Marth and Ike for being from the same series. Jeez. So stupid and irrelevant.

Uhhhh right anyways, yeah... they're different characters with their own strengths and weaknesses. I feel like the current hype is on characters with fast movesets though, as well as those with a powerful close-range game, dunno if that's just me. Fox and Wolf should probably be in the same tier IMO, but I can definitely see Fox being above Wolf for now because of a better MK matchup.

EDIT: yayyyy no more stupid comparisons between Fox and Wolf :D

 

[YagamiLight]

I am still perplexed by sheik, because she seems like she's overrated at the moment, but that sounds preposterous if you look at the things she can theoretically do.. Although stagnancy isn't really bad, just not good when you're in such a low spot.

Sheik is the number one character to play as in Super Theory Bros. Brawl.

Theoretically she's got so many things you can do with her that require a boatload of technical skill but at the end of the day, she just has an extreme case of Link Syndrome: To reach top level as Sheik, it takes way more time than the character deserves to have invested in her. For a similar amount of effort you could get much farther playing almost any other character.

An hour spent perfecting Sheik is two hours on every other character who doesn't have Link Syndrome (not a large list, probably contains: Link, Sheik, Yoshi and Sonic [defined as low mid / high low characters who probably just aren't 'worth it']). You see a ****load of Link users. How many of them are pro? 2?

I think you see my point.

They clearly have different strengths and weaknesses, why the **** do they need to be compared, it's like comparing Marth and Ike for being from the same series. Jeez. So stupid and irrelevant.

People still do this to this day. Only thing Marth and Ike have in common (battle-wise) is that they are tall, use swords and have a move called 'Counter' :/

 

[Conviction]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

Also, stfu about Wolf vs Fox on the tier list, it's ****ing stupid. Both are usable in tournament and have a fairly problematic matchup or two (not unwinnable). They clearly have different strengths and weaknesses, why the **** do they need to be compared, it's like comparing Marth and Ike for being from the same series. Jeez. So stupid and irrelevant.

Uhhhh right anyways, yeah... they're different characters with their own strengths and weaknesses. I feel like the current hype is on characters with fast movesets though, as well as those with a powerful close-range game, dunno if that's just me. Fox and Wolf should probably be in the same tier IMO, but I can definitely see Fox being above Wolf for now because of a better MK matchup.

Well nicer than what I would have expected but I like this post lol

Remember I stated I didn't want to bring up this subject.

 

[Ishiey]

Well nicer than what I would have expected but I like this post lol

Remember I stated I didn't want to bring up this subject.

I know lol, don't worry ;D You seem like a pretty well-informed Fox main though, I've always wondered, what are Fox's matchups in high tier? Only list the ones you're confident about, but yeah... I only hear about Fox's matchups with MK, D3, and Pikachu (out of high-tier... that my memory will let me remember... lol). How are the rest?

 

[DanGR]

It's making a point that Wolf has a great camping game.

I'm done with this argument since it seems nothing is getting through to either side. I've seen it time and time again and nobody seems to take anything away from it. The other wolves have given up discussing it and now I know why. People are stuck in the 2008 mentality and won't give Wolf a chance. It's stupid.

Not to say Wolf doesn't have a decent camping game, but the only reason Olimar has a difficult time camping Wolf is because when he uses his blaster, the hitbox on his gun AND the projectile both eat through Olimar's pikmin (yellows will stop the laser though), whereas most projectiles simply stop the pikmin or vice versa, and simply aren't as nearly as "spammable." The importance of the gun hitbox is that he can keep shooting his laser even when pikmin are attached because it'll knock them and all incoming purples away.

razor leaf stops pikmin and hurts them.
and because it lasts so long it can stop multiple pikmin before disappearing

And what's Ivysaur going to do when a pikmin lands on him? Stop shooting razor leaves to knock it off? Okay, now 3 more are flying at you from 3 different angles while you hit the first one off.

It doesn't work. Trust me.

 

[Spelt]

but that's when one is already on you, which isn't outcamping him.
keep them off in the first place.

 

[Conviction]

I know lol, don't worry ;D You seem like a pretty well-informed Fox main though, I've always wondered, what are Fox's matchups in high tier? Only list the ones you're confident about, but yeah... I only hear about Fox's matchups with MK, D3, and Pikachu (out of high-tier... that my memory will let me remember... lol). How are the rest?

50:50 vs. Snake
40:60 vs. Pika
55-60:45-40 vs. DDD
40-45:55-60 vs. Diddy
45-50:55-50 vs. MK (Ehh it seems some BBRs and TKD think it could be Fox's favor slightly but that's their opinion)
60:40 vs. Lucario
60:40 vs. ZSS

Others I can't think of right now or really don't have any experience in.

EDIT: Do you want B tier and higher or the whole cast?

 

[DanGR]

but that's when one is already on you, which isn't outcamping him.
keep them off in the first place.

Trolol? :o

Off to bed. Don't have time for this.

 

[Ishiey]

50:50 vs. Snake
40:60 vs. Pika
55-60:45-40 vs. DDD
40-45:55-60 vs. Diddy
45-50:55-50 vs. MK (Ehh it seems some BBRs and TKD think it could be Fox's favor slightly but that's their opinion)
60:40 vs. Lucario
60:40 vs. ZSS

Others I can't think of right now or really don't have any experience in.

EDIT: Do you want B tier and higher or the whole cast?

Whole cast would be way too much haha, I'd contact you over an IM client or something if I had the time to talk about all that xD Any information on Marth/ICs? And also, does Fox have any CP stages that are generally just bad for him, or do CPs depend moreso on who the opponent's character is?

 

[Conviction]

Stage thing is more character dependent.

Oh yea ICs is bad 30:70
Marth is even IMO I haven't had a hard time against a Marth at all.

Let's postpone this conversation for the moment I'm mad sleepy I had a parade I had to march my bass in haha. Soo actually just contact me on AIM tomorrow something.

 

[DMG]

Wtf

Ok so Pika is only 6:4 for Fox? ONLY? If that is a 6:4, every other real 6:4 in the game should look completely even lol.

Fox is bad. I'm positive he doesn't beat ZSS or Lucario. As for MK, I don't know of anyone in the BBR, TKD included, who actually thinks Fox beats MK. Very few to begin with have it near 45:55, most have it as 4:6 or past that.

 

[Spelt]

any character with a shield beats zss.
sry yoshi

 

[Blacknight99923]

In the BBR character discussion(fox) TKD had fox MK as even and M2K said it was fox's favor.

personally I don't think fox's character beats MKs

 

[Ishiey]

@ Iblis: Sounds good haha, thank you for the input ^^ I'll try to go on AIM tomorrow ;D

Also, I hope Spelt's 2000th post is epic.

TOPIC CHANGE TIME (too much talking about Fox): It kinda looks like we're going to end up with a pretty huge mid-tier in Brawl, is there any value in holding more mid-tier tournaments to fine-tune the subsections in mid-tier? A lot of mid-tier is underexplored and it'd be great to finally have results that show their performance (even if it's only a limited portion of the metagame that they're competing against) outside of supreme breakout players.

 

[DMG]

M2K said it for lulz. He doesn't believe that last time I heard from him. He's more interested in Olimar

 

[Browny]

50:50 vs. Snake
40:60 vs. Pika
55-60:45-40 vs. DDD
40-45:55-60 vs. Diddy
45-50:55-50 vs. MK (Ehh it seems some BBRs and TKD think it could be Fox's favor slightly but that's their opinion)
60:40 vs. Lucario
60:40 vs. ZSS

lol

If fox's ratios were that good, he would be placing much higher in the rankings list. He doesnt place high because he is not a popular tournament choice. He is not a popular tournament choice because he is hard to win with. He is hard to win with because his matchups are not that good.

 

[The Truth!]

I dont think its hard to believe those MUs are true.

All quotes are from August 10th in the Fox BBR discussion. Note: these are all mostly positive opinions with caveats mixed in. Negative ones existed but were few and far between. I didnt bother to pick them out since they werent very elaborate and no one really questioned their existance.

On Metaknight and MUs:

100% serious, I think Fox counters Metaknight 6:4. MK cannot camp Fox at all because of lasers, mixing up drill -> stuff, air dodge -> up tilt, and air dodge -> grab gives Fox a good way to get in on MK and punish him a lot of the time pretty strong, blocking MKs down smash gets him up smashed every time easily, and he combos him hard even if you smash DI the up tilts MK is still in a bad position. I think Fox is an extremely, extremely underrated character because they are not enough good Fox's. I have never played TKD, but some Fox at Apex2 almost beat me in pools, and probably would have won both matches instead of lost if he didn't fall into habits such as constanlty spamming up tilt after a drill or double jumping in the same spot or spamming up smash when I'm at kill % while I am just waiting for it and baiting it. I honestly think Fox has a clear advantage in this matchup if he plays it right.

I also think Fox beats MK on most neutrals. In addition to everything Jason just said, Fox's often underlooked saving grace is his full hop escape. He can just full hop out of any pressure, and his jump height off a full hop is ridiculous (you will not hit him with SH ANYTHING). He also rises very quickly, and due to awesome FF speed, can punish most whiffs. This allows him to destroy vertical spacing battles, despite losing in more popular horizontal spacing. Not falling into habits as Fox, learning how to use your good close range, being able to stall in midair ridiculously while having the fastest falling speed, breakneck rising speed, and 3rd fastest Dash, makes this characters camp game STUPIDLY solid.

TY pierce! fox so good, im picking him up, gonna get on that tkd status I believe hes extremely good vs mk also.

and fox beats zss tbh I think nick agrees. You shouldnt be getting hit by dsmash as fox.

Fox beats ZSS.

I don't think Fox beats MK at all, but I agree with you and M2K in that he is VERY difficult to gimp and can wrack damage and kill extremely early. I think Fox vs MK is 50/50 or at worst a 45:55 disadvantage for Fox. It's a really close matchup and I agree that Fox is very under-rated. More on that below....

...He has even-ish matchups against most of the high tiers (save Pikachu) and is a much more versatile character than most people give him credit for.

I think Fox, Falco, Meta Knight and Wario all have even match-ups against each other. You haven't pictured these characters at their fullest

Fox beating MK... I can see it, but not 6-4, just a small advantage like 55-45 in most of the starters

Overall he does pretty well vs the common characters of the top tier like falco, diddy, snake, wario, DDD, etc.

On Tier standing

I do agree though that man, including myself did underrate Fox, and I can certainly see as to why Rookie originally said he i high tier.
The thing is that he gets reliably hard countered. One hard counter is bad, but anymore than that pretty much prevents any hope of being a high tier character.
He is great, possibly top of his current tier, but not high tier.

If he wasn't screwed over so badly by his hard counters, he would certainly be a candidate for high tier.

I think he's definitely high tier material.

Fox is hard to play though, but I think this character is A Tier.

Fox is mad good.

Till he fights Pikachu.

if not for the Pikachu and IC matchups, i'd put him into High tier, but because of it, I keep him in the smack center of mid tier.

The most common opinion seemed to be that Fox has great matchups, and if it werent for two hard counters Fox would very easily be high tier. I agree with this as well.

I do think 60:40 for pika is very generous though, lol. But thats the only one.

 

[-LzR-]

Fox is a good character IMO, but having 4 counters sure doesn't help it.

 

[Browny]

And how many of those people main fox or use him in tournament?

Of course people who randomly lose a rarely-seen mid tier character are going to call him underrated.

Meh hes like sheik imo... So powerful in super theory bros yet extremely mediocre when it comes to actually placing high in tournaments regularly. at least tkd is showing what he is truly capable of. However I very much would like to see vids of a top fox vs a top Lucario, ZSS and Pika.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213822

Seriously, I cant find anything.

 

[YagamiLight]

Meh hes like sheik imo... So powerful in super theory bros yet extremely mediocre when it comes to actually placing high in tournaments regularly.

On the contrary, Fox is probably terrible when it comes to super theory bros. Ike / Sonic level, even.

The community is currently riding part 2 of any theory bros. wave. This is the part where the backlash happens and everyone says "Wait...if he's winning these previously thought impossible match-ups...then HE MUST BE AMAZING! WE'RE SORRY FOX! WE LOVE YOU!"

The truth is probably in between "Fox = top tier" and "Fox = trash," really. The only question is which side he leans toward. Expect a good answer in like 5 years.

 

[The Truth!]

^Except that Fox isnt winning any MUs previously thought impossible. Its just turned out to not be as significant as people once thought.

I dont think any shiek has performed to the level Fox's have. TKD has done consistently well for quite awhile, even when he comes to socal. And hes best in his region (TJ) which is very good (they had 3 people prd on socals list before they moved off onto their own). There was that fox from Texas, Samboner, he rarely went to tournaments but would beat big names and place well when he would go. And from what Ive heard Meeps Fox is starting to do well in MD/VA.

Also you shouldnt need a large spread of players to be able to prove a characters potential, some characters are simply much harder to use than others.

I think people are often too critical about things like this. For instance when ike, fox, or ness do poorly, people are quick to jump onto how bad the character is. However when one or two players pick it up and start to do well, people immediately jump onto the 'the MU isnt well known' wagon or 'its the player, not the character'. Honestly, if that really is the case, then results will show it sooner or later. But trying to undercut the characters progress before that happens is silly and hypocritical considering how quick people are to shoot them down for poor results.

 

[DMG]

Fox is bad. There's no way in hell he will ever be A tier. Ever.

Take a solid B tier character, Lucario. Do people actually think that Fox is near that level? Lucario has some bad matchups obviously, but nothing compared to Fox. IC's, Shiek, and Pika are Hard Hard counters. Not Dedede vs DK level, but minimum 65:35 each one. Fox has SOME acceptable matchups with the top tiers. Some. He has quite a few "eh" matchups though. Wario is 4:6, Marth probably around there too, MK I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally doubt Fox can even go 45:55. Going that well suggests he does nearly as someone like Diddy, and Diddy has to GO TO WORK for that to even be realistic.


"If he wasn't screwed over so badly by his hard counters, he would certainly be a candidate for high tier."

^^^ That is the problem folks, he IS screwed over by his hard counters. Hell, you could make a case for DK to go slightly higher if "Dedede didn't **** him". But we don't say "We will place this character here because we think he is this good if these problems were not here." We say "All things considered, sucks to have hard counters bro."

Samboner? I don't think I've seen him at a tournament in like a year. He came 1-2 times to a Hobo, that was missing a LOT of good players (Me, Dphat, Lee Martin, Dojo, Zac, etc) and beat Razer just to see Razer come back 3-1 next set. Every other Fox player, even if they are quite good as a player, fail in tournament because frankly IT'S FOX. I remember a tournament that Zeton won/got second at, and then a month later he had to play Light in tournament and he was SCREWED because it was Shiek. I've seen him have to play Badnewsbear and camp the **** out of him just to get CG'd to death. Even with a world class player behind the character, he's bad enough that people can just use CP characters and win. They have to know some stuff, it's not Dedede vs DK bad, but it also negatively affects him enough that you would be crazy to say he is A tier.

I remember when people said Fox beats Wario. Looool. THOSE were the days everyone was ******** about his matchups and had **** like 6:4 Snake, 65:35 Wario, 6:4 MK, 7:3 ROB, 6:4 G&W, etc. Even though that has toned down quite a bit and people have gotten realistic about his matchups, it's still not there yet. People still clinging to his potential potential that has realistically been crushed by his hard counters.

Ness is bad. Fox is bad. They both suck despite getting some good results. Look at Ganondorf. A complete SACK OF CRAP, and I've seen even HIM get tournament results like that Cali tournament Micheal Hay got like 7th with Ganon. Does this mean "OMFG GANON FOR MID TIER!"? Hell no.