The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[hippiedude92]

Wow. Only me and atash like only posted twice for luigi discussion =[ Wanted it to last longer. i dont recall seeing you discuss any of the stages but obviously 55:45 or 60 on RC with kirbylol. lol the discussion went by so fast =[. didnt have time to partpate either >.>

 

[Percon]

The Sonic mains are everywhere! Aaargh!

(My two cents tomorrow)

 

[da K.I.D.]

we are by far the most active character, and possibly the most active section of this entire forum

 

[|RK|]

For certain reasons, I presume (read: Spam). lol, jkjk

 

[Asdioh]

I made that for the Sonic boards like, yesterday, hopefully Kinzer did as I asked and posted it in the SBR

Everytime you absorb Sonic (do it, Kirby sonic looks awesome lol) We can drop a spring on your head. not that it means much... but hopefully all Sonic's know that you can actually do that

Sonic can spring out of Kirbys usual combos at about 20-25%

umm thats about all I know lol, dont play too many Kirbys. Kirbs fsmash is OP btw

you can also Dair Kirby after he uses Copy, I tested out every character in the game, there are like ~19 characters that can punish Kirby for using Copy. Great game mechanic, eh? "hey, congratulations, you successfully used a move that you would usually get punished for whiffing!"
*hits you*

Sonic can Spring out of Kirby's grab combos really easily. I'm pretty sure Fthrow->uair will deal 18% and no more, because Sonic should be able to DI and Spring out after that.

Kirby's Fsmash is not overpowered. I wish people would explain what's so "overpowered" about a character having one good kill move that is ridiculously easy to punish if you shield or dodge the whole thing.

Wow. Only me and atash like only posted twice for luigi discussion =[ Wanted it to last longer. i dont recall seeing you discuss any of the stages but obviously 55:45 or 60 on RC with kirbylol. lol the discussion went by so fast =[. didnt have time to partpate either >.>

Feel free to continue discussing, it doesn't really matter.

I would take Luigi to...

...

I don't know where I would take Luigi, to be honest. I personally don't like Rainbow Cruise, and barely ever CP it. Jungle Japes is good, but I don't really see any advantage of taking Luigi there. Brinstar is my personal favorite stage in the game, but it would help Luigi more than me in this matchup, imo.

we are by far the most active character, and possibly the most active section of this entire forum

another picture I made yesterday or the day before >_>



OK! Discussion time!

So....Sonic is a character in Super Smash Brothers Brawl for the Nintendo Wii. Some time ago, I was like "you know what? I liked the Sonic games way back when, I should try learning him."

But I tried and realized his playstyle was waaay to different from every other character, and I sucked and didn't find it fun.

And then I randomly picked up Fox some other time ago, and I found it to be extremely fun.

Random stuff aside, spam dtilt ummm..I don't have any offline experience against Sonic except against Anther, and that was months ago, when his Sonic sucked and my Kirby sucked.

I wouldn't necessarily say Sonic is better online, but I will say he's even more annoying. You literally cannot approach him on wifi with Kirby, since he's too fast. You have to wait for his approach, but the problem with wifi is that you need to predict, rather than react, which screws you over because Sonic punishes you for predicting wrong, and he's too fast to react to with input lag. That is the reason I hate wifi Sonic.


Ok, random stuff aside, now for the serious business offline Sonic discussion.

...

Everything's already pretty much been said.

Don't use laggy moves because Sonic will punish you.

Hopefully I get some Sonic experience in the tourney March 6/7 :/

edit: Don't let Sonic mindgame you into running into his stupid "GO!" Fsmash.

Especially on wifi.

Scenario: I run into a Sonic that is obviously trying to mindgame me into running into his Fsmash. He's standing in one place spamming "GO!." So I'm like "I know he's doing this, I'll run in and powershield or dodge it."

*runs in and tries to powershield or dodge it*

*gets Fsmashed because wifi sucks*



Here's a tier list for you guys:

Top Tier: Kirby's Melee "Hiii!"
Middle Steak Tier: Sonic's Side Taunt.
Low Tier: Kirby's Brawl "Hiii!"

 

[Kinzer]

Asdioh, it's not fair that you compare those two groups.

That one is compiled with people from everywhere. We're alone in our crusade to make Sonic a good character.

Anyway that reminds me, I think Sonic could at low %ages punish Kirby for using a D-Throw. Such an amazing pose he does, however is probably not a good idea.

Edit: Inb4that'snotFairit'sBair.

Also DJ when I said putting in a quote in a quote, I meant other people would not be able to directly quote ME. Not unless they wanted to take the time to individually fix it themselves because I could add things like colors/bolds/italicization (is that a word?)/etc.

 

[SheerMadness]

I'd rather shoot myself in the head than play against a Sonic.

I just stand in one spot on the stage the whole match and either vulcan jab or uptilt when he gets close.

 

[momochuu]

I'd rather shoot myself in the head than play against a Sonic.

I just stand in one spot on the stage the whole match and either vulcan jab or uptilt when he gets close.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that hates him with a burning passion. =_=

 

[Asdioh]

Asdioh, it's not fair that you compare those two groups.

That one is compiled with people from everywhere. We're alone in our crusade to make Sonic a good character.

I s'pose...I just wanted the TL group to go from #2 most posts to #1, so I told them to step it up in Sonic fashion :]

As for shooting yourself in the head...I haven't played a super bait/punish style Sonic, but I could imagine it would be hellish.

Sonics like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE_wJtSsTZw are interesting to watch, at least.

 

[Kinzer]

Actually, people really hate the Campy Sonics.

Nothing is wrong about the Sonics that fight like RATS and even to an extent. We probably only camp if we're bad/have no other choice/want to play Gay/have a stock/% lead on a character like Kirby who can't really force Sonic to approach otherwise.

Even then, none of the known high-calibur Sonic's ever play campy, except maybe this Blue guy I heard about only recently. Sonic is all in your face because it's more fun that way/that's how Sonic should be played.

 

[JayBee]

I will if I have to. and try to pay attention to %, but if im in aggro mode, im usually in auto pilot so that idea goes out the window.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Character: Blue Steak. Speeds by...... SONIC THE HEDGEHOG

Difficulty rating: 6:4 Kirby.

Overview: I tend to hit and run Kirbys. Midrange camping. Far enough I don't get hit by Fsmash but close enough I'd be able to punish a grounded hammer. (Not saying you do it btw. Just.. that general range) It makes SideBing into you easier and Kirby can have some problems with ASC.

Pros+Cons: Weight. Mid: Speed: lol (we have tricks that speed us up or disguise our speed too such as spin cancels, dair, Spinshot etc)

Watch out for: Bair, Uair, Fair, Fsmash, Dsmash, Ftilt Spins, Anything the messes with our momentum/tempo. If we're having trouble killing we'll spindash to Bair. If you smash DI the Spindash Jump down I think you can escape it. Maybe up for you since you weigh the same as a marshmallow peep.

How to win: Get those early combos, land that Fsmash Bairs can **** us up I think the range is about equal on our bairs but Kirbys is faster and to tie you we'd have to have our backs to you.

Spit out or Swallow?: That's what she said. Keep your inhale. Just suck us out of our spring and sit there.

What NOT to do: Spam moves. Sitting there and spamming bair SOUNDS good in theory since we have lolnopriority but we have speed. Also Usmash has crazy GOOD priority and we can sideB into you with our infzyframes of awesome.

Stages: I have NO idea. Avoid FD and SV though. I love those stages so it's gotta be worth looking at.

Synopsis: That was my tl:dr version.

 

[SheerMadness]

Overview: I tend to hit and run Kirbys. Midrange camping.

Which is exactly why Kirby vs Sonic is the most annoying matchup in any of the 3 smash games. And I play all 3 competitively.

Kirby can't chase him around the stage so he basically has to stay stationally the entire match lol. Sonic is sooooo annoying.

 

[Kinzer]

I heard the matchup between Fox & Pikachu was "LOL!"

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah.... Foxes never believe me when I say I won't gay them in friendlies. It's like DUUUDE It's friendlies. **** I probably wouldn't even do it on the AiB ladder. In tourney though I'll gay your ***. Too bad if you win a match in tourney Fox/DK are off limits. :/

And I'm sorry for not running into your attacks or allowing myself unable to get spammed by UpB Sheer Madness. I still like you. Do you like me?

[ ]Yes [ ]No

lol


It's actually NOT that bad for Sonic btw. Even though you have advantage we can TECHNICALLY annoy you till you let us have advantage. I dislike being on the offensive against Kirby/Tlink/Luigi because they're floaty and have high priority aerials which makes it hard to combo/beat their ***. SBR did have one thing semi-right. We love momentum. It just doesn't hurt us when we DON'T have it.

 

[Kinzer]

The advantage?

I would say they might have it easier, but I am unclear as to whether it be neutral or not.

I/some other people might be crazy enough to say it is in Sonic's advantage, though you won't be hearing it from me.

Edit: Fixed some typos, and now you just reminded me I want to go over the matchup between Weegee again sometime, we did NOT get too much if any input from their side.

 

[:mad:]

Actually, the advantage against Fox would be Pikachu's massive dthrow chaingrab. It can get, what? 60%. You get damage like that, plus an fsmash, and that's almost a free kill.

I'd say 55:45 Kirby, in this matchup. Mainly due to Kirby dying a lower percents.

 

[Kinzer]

80% actually if I recall correctly.

But enoguh of that, this is about Kirby and Sonic, yes.

 

[:mad:]

80%. With good DI, you can get out before it gets that high.

I'll post more thoughts on this matchup tomorrow, it's pretty late here, actually.

 

[~Shao~]

Luigi's already done? I was planning on writing something today, but I guess Atash's post covered pretty much everything. I find Kirby's tilts to be very good in this match-up, especially f-tilt. On the other hand, I find Luigi's tilts to be subpar, except for his u-tilt. And tornado happy Weegee's are annoying '-'

About Sonic...I don't have experience against good ones, so I won't comment

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

hey when are you guys gonna get to kirby vs wario

 

[IC3R]

Sonics like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE_wJtSsTZw are interesting to watch, at least.

Sonic's like this need to move to America...

I sent some of RATS' videos to a friend of mine who mains Sonic, and he was like

O______________O



As for Kirby vs. Wario: just be patient; we'll get to everyone eventually...

 

[momochuu]

Yeah, this discussion probably won't last that long. Ness is next though. Then maybe Wario.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Sonic's match up to Kirby should stay around 60-40 Kirby, I don't see it in anyother way than that when I Brawl Sonic. ☆

hey when are you guys gonna get to kirby vs wario

☆ We already pass Wario, but I'll say it lacks info since the Wario boards have it as even, and we have it as our disadvantage. =/

Also, oh boy, did the Sonic boards just about took over this thread. XD ☆

 

[Kinzer]

☆ Sonic's match up to Kirby should stay around 60-40 Kirby, I don't see it in anyother way than that when I Brawl Sonic. ☆

Technomonster is a beast.

I'm pretty sure some of you might know him perhaps, I've seen him on SWF occassionally, and he did play Kirby at the Vegassmash tourney.

...but~, even though it was Corneria, he and I went more or less even, and I was even in the lead until I had to be stupid and kill myself.

Mind if I ask you what are you basing off your ratio on?

Regardless, if you doubt my word, I'll see if I can get Techno to fight me with his Kirby again on some more fair ground and see how it goes from there, though I'm pretty confident when I say the matchup is even.

Sonic's like this need to move to America...

Too bad once somebody could figure out all his habits and his spasmtastic movement/mindgames (if you can even call it that), he won't be able to fight back.

It only works in Japan, but they are an entirely different region, and probably wouldn't last too long with one of us.

But I don't know, I only respond because a lot of the Sonic boarders are tired of having RATS being praised for just fighting like they want all the Sonics to play, yet we're the ones who are truly advancing his Metagame. Personally IDC and he IS fun to watch when his thing works, I must admit.

 

[Lord Viper]

Mind if I ask you what are you basing off your ratio on?

☆ I mostly base it off by advantages on moves, how many starter/counterpick stages that's good for the characters, and how much time to be pro with the character, (I put this because some characters are good, but have little masters to show off the true power), I'm not sure what Maestro bases it off of though. So far, I only know two good Sonic mains offline that I fought, their not the best Sonic's I've seen, but their pretty good to make me try. ☆

 

[Katakiri]

☆ I mostly base it off by advantages on moves, how many starter/counterpick stages that's good for the characters, and how much time to be pro with the character, (I put this because some characters are good, but have little masters to show off the true power), I'm not sure what Maestro bases it off of though. So far, I only know two good Sonic mains offline that I fought, their not the best Sonic's I've seen, but their pretty good to make me try. ☆

If we're going by skill now, we're gonna have to change the MK matchup the 80-20. We didn't bring every little wifi nub Sonic we could find to discuss this did we? Nope, we brought "pros" & people that know what they're talking about. (Which is pretty much the same thing at this point in the metagame)
I've been comparing the two as if both sides were "pros". It's a character match-up, not a player match-up. Kay?
I main Sonic and Kirby EVENLY, so I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say the match is 50-50, 55-45 Kirby's favor at the worst(best?)
Refer to post #1713(linked) for reasons.

 

[Browny]

sigh...

blazing i main lucario + sonic evenly and am probably right up there with the best of both character mainers in this country, yet i know next to NOTHING of the matchup between the two since i have only ever once played against each other in a tournament setting. Knowing how 2 characters work indivually doenst always mean that will give any indication of how the matchup pans out (Pikachu and Fox?) Your experience is worth no more than anyone elses here, we all main either kirby or sonic and maining both only means you wont make silly judgements about what the other character can/cant do.

that said, i would say its a solid disadvantage, i wont put numbers on it but i cant imagine it ever going to even on sonics best/kirbys worst stage.

 

[Percon]

It's not an even matchup; Kirby has the advantage.

I played some good sonics at CoT4, and I used Kirby a few times and never had any problems.

There was this one sonic in friendlies who beat my PT (sniff, I had confidence in him), totaled my DDD but I beat him comfortably as Kirby, even when I was doing some of the dumbest things ever.

The only time he could get kills on me was when I spotdodged in front of him when he was charging his fsmash... yeah, I do some dumb stuff sometimes. Aside from that, I was living until 180. I don't believe in uair killing (I survived it at like 100%) and if we just stay in the air with a hitbox out it's hard for him to land solid hits on us. Fsmash is pretty solid even with me not being dumb, but dsmash only lands in their dreams or when you land incorrectly.

Just because dair has no landing lag doesn't mean it's unpunishable. I remember being mildly annoyed with it when I hit a sonic out of it and he said "oh, it's about time you figured that out." I forget what I hit him with... it was probably bair, fsmash or usmash. Maybe all three work. His dair is bad regardless; you can see it coming a mile away.

Homing attack should also be spotdodged then punished. BTW, don't take the power unless you're just fooling around.

The only things I still find annoying are his spin dashes... right now I'm just trying them out myself and seeing what works best vs them.

Anyway, it's in Kirby's favor. Don't ask me for a number just yet... but I'm sure it's in Kirby's favor, based on my experiences and theory.

 

[ShadowLink84]

but I beat him comfortably as Kirby, even when I was doing some of the dumbest things ever.

That is not a good sign. If Sonic is letting you get away with really dumb ****, like you Fsmashing his shield and not getting punished (not saying you did) then it means that Sonic probably ither doesn't have experience with kiby, or you are much less skilled with the other characters.

Sonic is a punisher so stupid things WILL be punished.

The only time he could get kills on me was when I spotdodged in front of him when he was charging his fsmash... yeah, I do some dumb stuff sometimes. Aside from that, I was living until 180. I don't believe in uair killing (I survived it at like 100%) and if we just stay in the air with a hitbox out it's hard for him to land solid hits on us. Fsmash is pretty solid even with me not being dumb, but dsmash only lands in their dreams or when you land incorrectly.

Kirby should not be living to 180%
That tells you h either stagnated his moves or does not know how to kill well with Sonic.
With the exception of heay characters, no character should be living past 140% from Sonic.
uair is not a kill move, only off the top if you're floating in the air.

Don't try the whole "keep a hitbox out" thing.
uair beats ALL of your aerials and bair will clang with your aerials as well. So at worst, you'll exchange blows and you'lldie cause Sonic weighs more and falls faster than you.

Sonic is a punisher, don't keep a hitbox out unless you know you are entirely safe.

Just because dair has no landing lag doesn't mean it's unpunishable.

You're one of the few who notced.
yep its punishable, mainly because of the trajectory. Its just so predictable it practically screams "here is where I will be, smack me here".

I remember being mildly annoyed with it when I hit a sonic out of it and he said "oh, it's about time you figured that out." I forget what I hit him with... it was probably bair, fsmash or usmash. Maybe all three work. His dair is bad regardless; you can see it coming a mile away.

Yeah, but its not meant to be used offensively, The abilities are mostly defensive because of how t allows Sonic to get back to the ground after spring or recovering.
If sonic does it poorly you should punish him with your hardest hitting move.

Homing attack should also be spotdodged then punished. BTW, don't take the power unless you're just fooling around.

No good Sonic will use homing attack except to recover. Or if he knows he will get away with it. high start up and high cooldown make it bad plus the terrible priority.
It has SOME use offstage but its easy to avoid.

For the down B, just grab him out of it. both down B and side B when committed are bad aproaches, they are fast but predictable which is where their weakness lie.

its the fact that they can be cancelled that is the issue. Say sonic charges up a side B. he can simply shield and cancel it then react to whatever you will do in response.
Or if he is spincharging towards you, he can jump cancel and avoid any punishment.

the aerial version of his down B is much better though cause it has the whole multihit thing and the cancelable thing going on.

The best way to deal with it, is to simply limit his ability to use it. Mainly try to hinder him by limiting his options or trying to force him into a position where you'll gain an advantage.

Anyway, it's in Kirby's favor. Don't ask me for a number just yet... but I'm sure it's in Kirby's favor, based on my experiences and theory.

I recommend you play Malcolm or Espy, they are easily among the best Sonic users out there and would definitely help you learn more about Sonic and how to deal with him.

Unless you already played them whch makes that statement null.
I do think its in Kirby's advantage, primarily since his kill moves are better and because his aerial game is more solid.

 

[Kinzer]

What good do kill moves do if the other character has momentum-cancelling...?

I'm not aware of anything Kirby might have to kill knockback, except the usual quickest aerial in terms of lag, FF, and then whatever.

Unless you meant to say Kirby has an easier time landing his kill moves or something, I don't know, but apparently Kirby weight as much as a desk from what I am looking at.

I don't want to get into too much detail for Kirby's aerials, but how is it that since because he has a Dair that leads into more stuff, a Nair that auto cancels, and and a spammable Bair makes it better than Sonic?

Uair takes care of Dair, Bair trades hits at worst, and as for follow-ups... meh well I'll give that one to Kirby.

That's directed at Shadow, but anybody else is fine to answer that.

I don't know, maybe I am too optimistic about light characters and how they're suppose to DIE when they get hit, ya know?

 

[A1lion835]

I don't know, maybe I am too optimistic about light characters and how they're suppose to DIE when they get hit, ya know?

See: Bucket break.

 

[Kinzer]

Kirby has G&W's Down-B?

 

[DFat2]

Technomonster is a beast.

Mind if I ask you what are you basing off your ratio on?

Regardless, if you doubt my word, I'll see if I can get Techno to fight me with his Kirby again on some more fair ground and see how it goes from there, though I'm pretty confident when I say the matchup is even.

So if you beat Technomonster, the match ups turns into even? If your basing your ratio on a Match with a (single) Kirby player, how can you honestly believe that the match up is even?

If the match up is 50/50, from where are you Basing your Ration off?

 

[Kinzer]

Well, there are no other good Kirbies I know of in Vegas.

Again, none that I know of, there might be some, but I am unaware.

And IMO, 1 good Kirby offline is better than what over 9,000 could tell you over Lag-Fi.

Also I go with what I have seen/done in matches, and probably comparing movesets and how they would be used against the other character. Indeed.

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby has G&W's Down-B?

I'm going to take a guess and say that this isn't a joke.

Light characters not dying when they're hit.

See: Bucket break

 

[Kinzer]

But AFAIK G&W is the only light character that has such a method.

Does Kirby have anything similar?

Also it was kind of a joke, but I was saying it like Kirby had some Bucket-brake-like method that works just as fine as that if not better.

does he really have something like the sort?

 

[A1lion835]

Not really.

Rock works sort of like it, in that if you can activate it, you're not [immediately] screwed, but you travel during the transfomation, so meh.

 

[Kinzer]

Okay then.

Why do people get the idea that Kirby will be killing Sonic faster just because of the GAETEDAYRT Fsmash?

Like I said, I don't know why, but I do know that Kirby isn't exactly what you would call fat and durable in the game, so both characters would be living at more or less the same %ages, take some or add some.

Am I not right?

Go ahead, "I'm waaaiiiiting!"

D'oh but why do I still care, it's just freaking numbers... that's all it is anyway...

So yeah, why do I bother anymore, just because I think it's even... bwuah hwua wah wah wah...

 

[Browny]

idk... Kirby hammer can KO ridiculously low and his fsmash really is THAT powerful. I just think that on average they should be living around the same %'s