The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[IC3R]

*Does more lurking and work on the matchup summary*

 

[A1lion835]

Fast, I'm not sure if they cancel it with the ledge, but they could probably ledge tech it.

 

[platiepoos]

Even if you could cancel it with the ledge, wouldn't it be better to just use a dair? The problem with FC spiking is that (most of the time) a dair is a better option. For those of you who didn't know, Kirby's flame breath reaches longer than bowser's for some reason, making it a useful ability. I don't think it's very important to try to clank with bowser's fsmash, since it would be better to just avoid and punish with dair>fsmash. Kirby's final cutter projectile is also uncommonly useful in this matchup IMO because it can halt Bowser's approaches and he's usually too slow to punish. Finally, stay away from the ledge. Kirby is generally a defensive character, and shielding near the edge is NOT and option in this matchup, especially after you racked up 120% due to Bowser's weight just to be Bowsercided. "Kirby doesn't like irony!"
Oh, and Gonzo combos work wonders.

 

[TheFast]

Dair is not much of a spike compaired to the Up-b spike. I dont even know if Dair is concidered a Spike? It just has downward kockback because of placing but I dont think it is a true spike. Also Fortress goes through Dair(I think) which would result in aviodiable damage. Fortress is a little tricky at the edge and many bowsers with sometimes come at you from the edge with it when you are at high damages as it has great priority and deccent damage. Up-Spike would be a great way to punish that. Also Up-b spike kills alot early than normal spike. If they can cancel on the ledge than i dont think it is good. Because of Bowsers different Up-Speeds. Since it is based on momentium and DI he can easy aviod an up-b spike with Kirby doing it to grab the edge and maybe even cause Kirby to get edge gaurded. Either way using Up-b as a projectile when bowser is off the stage is probably alot safer than risking getting hit by fortress. Since you can wait for him to get closer the edge or force him to use his 2nd jump with the up-b leading into a low damage dair kill if you are smart. Either way Kirby's boost grabs distroy alot of bowsers game. Since it is a very fast grab that combos well on heaver characters and even more so on ones with bad jumps. However a Bowser with good spacing will still put up trouble because even though his range is adverage compaired to his body his body is huge still giving him quit a bit of range. Also his power can end up with low damage kills. And Kirby's killing moves dont do so well. A miss place F-smash and wind up with a shutterstep F-smash coming at you. Best bet is to get him in the air and stay under him. The only thing hes got under him is the sit and dair. If you can bait either of those laggy moves out of a bowser it can lead to a good punishment. If you dont bait them out you are still realativly safe under him when his is in the air. Try to force him to grab an edge and predict him coming off the ledge.

 

[A1lion835]

Fast. They can ledge-tech if they can't cancel on the ledge.

 

[TheFast]

Well so its usiable if they down know how to tech >_> Either way missed techs happen.... I would think its usiable.

 

[platiepoos]

There are no such thing as spikes in brawl, they're meteor smashes, meaning they can be meteor cancelled. Kirby's dair can also be FFed into a footstool which completely screws bowser over even if the stun from the dair wouldn't have killed him. Like I said earlier, Fortress has almost no startup lag and only lasts for a very small amount of time, and that doesn't even consider the possibility of sweet spotting the ledge, making FC spikes incredibly difficult.

 

[A1lion835]

There are no such thing as spikes in brawl, they're meteor smashes, meaning they can be meteor cancelled.

Not true.

We call most meteor smashes spikes (sounds much awesomer), but there are true spikes, marth and falco's dairs to name 2 (marth only NTSC, not PAL though). Also, because Sakurai is ghey, meteor smashes can only be meteor canceled after a certain point, not like in melee where you could cancel them after fly 1/2 foot.

 

[B!squick]

I should probably mention that I've been DAired out of Fortress while recovering. Off hand I'd say it has more priority that Bowser's UpB after the invincibility frames. And I've also be FC spiked out of it. Either way, I learned not to recover low against Kirby the other day. You could also just DownB through it.

 

[Asdioh]

We could also just falling Inhale the Fortress, and then Starshot. How effective that is depends on positioning, though, it could end up helping more than hurting.

Still, it's easy to pull off.

You could also... Fire Breath-cide?

I've done it twice XD falling Fire Breath as Bowser is trying to recover, it sends him down a little, then you could attempt to footstool or Dair before he reacts...it's kinda fancy, but it may work. Try it, somebody, if you get the chance

 

[TheFast]

Bowser seems to have a very bad match-up if Dair goes through their Up-b. i would say 60-40 maybe 65-35

 

[Asdioh]

I wouldn't go past 60-40, because Bowser racks up damage and kills ridiculously fast if you make one mistake.

If I get the chance to play Sliq again, I'll make sure I do. Last time I played him, his Bowser wrecked me in friendlies like 5 times in a row, and I was like "wtf I thought Bowser was an easy win"

But I've gotten way, way better since then :/

 

[A1lion835]

I've done it twice XD falling Fire Breath as Bowser is trying to recover, it sends him down a little, then you could attempt to footstool or Dair before he reacts...it's kinda fancy, but it may work. Try it, somebody, if you get the chance

First kirby copied to get Kirbiocide and KirKirKircide, and now he makes -cides out of moves that don't usually do it? It works with lasers too...

 

[B!squick]

First kirby copied to get Kirbiocide and KirKirKircide, and now he makes -cides out of moves that don't usually do it? It works with lasers too...

Kirby's just that brutal. He has to -cide else he can't win. :O

 

[DFat2]

I call it 60/40 for the simple fact that Boozer can kill kirbz pretty fast and Fair goes trough anything.

Take him to japes obviously.

 

[freddybones]

You could also... Fire Breath-cide?

I've done it twice XD falling Fire Breath as Bowser is trying to recover, it sends him down a little, then you could attempt to footstool or Dair before he reacts...it's kinda fancy, but it may work. Try it, somebody, if you get the chance

This I need to try. Sounds awesome.

 

[choice_brawler]

Match up is definitely 60-40 kirby.

I play a bowser pretty frequently and yea its pretty much like you've all said. Get him in the air and dont let him touch the ground for a bit. He's like yours to do whatever you want. You wont always get to gimp him, cuz a smart bowser saves their up b for when you're near or just recovers high -> sit and grab ledge. I was thinking if maybe you could beat sit by using stone. Like while you're transforming, bowser catches up to you and by the time he hits you you're in stone form and then hit him instead. Sounds crazy risky, but i've done it with other attacks that move char's downwards (ex: GaW dair). Probably a bit unnecessary unless if the risk of doing it is like nothing, cuz you dont want to be sat on, ever. Wouldnt hurt to try it out during friendlies or somethin.

When bowser is on the ground, he's gonna go for a grab most likely so he can get the grab releases goin. Whenever you go behind him, he's gonna up b oos. Gimpyfish combo will happen from time to time, and is hard to punish when in the hands of a good bowser cuz of their spacing. Dont get punished trying to punish it, learn where you have to be in relation to bowser in order to be able to punish it at all. Don't try to beat it, sounds like a terrible idea or like the bowser spaced poorly. On the ground his tilting game is so beastly too. Utilt hits behind bowser, not really sure if the hitbox there is any different than the hitbox elsewhere, but it hurts like mad, without a doubt. Ftilt is fast and has a huge range. Dtilt can be used to kill and has a low trajectory without proper DI, so DI up. You wont see, or at least i dont see, much claw canceling against kirby, cuz its like bowser willingly placing himself in a position where you can wreck him.

Kirby + boozer breath > bowser + boozer breath, like you all said. Edge guarding with it just racks up dmg fast and can lead to a dair when they DI back.

I would have to disagree with someone who said that battlefield was bowser's best neutral. I think FD is better. More space to grab release, and a lot of his damage can come from this if you're not careful. If a bowser grabs you and grab releases you all the way across FD then follows it up with something, that crap just sucks. Kirby grabbing bowser messes makes it really easy to get bowser into the air, but bowser grabbing kirby just screws over that stock. Be careful with your grabs basically, you really dont even need to go in for grabs that often. Pretty big target, not hard to combo.

Lylat cruise is great against bowser too, to throw along with the japes and rainbow cruise. On lylat, the moving edge makes it so he has to time his up b differently that he may want, so go for them dairs. I feel like other than when i take my bowser crewmate to japes and rainbow cruise, lylat is where i get the most gimps.

 

[A1lion835]

Alright...do we really need to continue?

We've gotten a good amount of information, and it's not like we're disputing the rating...

 

[platiepoos]

Who HASN'T been discussed yet? The only char i could think of looking at the list is Luigi....
We could revisit Lucas like you said in the OP. Oh, and why is R.O.B.'s name in green? He's a **** to play.
Edit: Jigglypuff, Link, Sonic, Luigi, and Kirby dittos are the only matchups i believe we haven't discussed. It's bottom of the barrel time! Also, The Yoshi boards are doing their matchups melee style, and are releasing about 3 threads for characters every couple weeks so discussion can continue as the characters develop. We could, of course, do that and link all the threads to the main post. There's probably alot we could say about the characters that were the subject of early discussion. 23 weeks is a long time.

 

[IC3R]

Alrighty, I have Bowser finished. How does it look?

Character: [Bowser]
Matchup Rating: 60 :: 40, in Kirby's favor.


Overview:
All heil Bowser, King of the Koopas!!! Bowser made his debut with the Smash series in Melee, where he was quickly looked upon as a big, slow, powerhouse. The assumptions were correct. His Badness was trash of the trash, a laughingstock in the tournament scene; however, those days are over. Now, the Koopa King can tear through opponents thanks to his newly acquired skills and improved overall speed. Once this juggernaut gets going, there's no stopping him...so how will the story end for the Super Tuff Pink Puff?


Pros+Cons-:
+ Immense level of power
+ Super Armor and Invincibility on some moves
+ Massively disjointed hitboxes (and without a sword, too!)
+ Strong ground game
+ Difficult to KO

- Large, heavy target
- Poor jumps and recovery
- Somewhat easily gimped
- Gets juggled like no one's business


Watch out for:
Koopa Klaw/Flying Slam - This is the core of Bowser's game; it's massively disjointed hitbox outranges most everything Kirby has. There's just one little problem though: it's a grab, which means that it has the ultimate priority. When used onstage, Bowser crushes our little puffball for ~18% damage, and sends him flying. When used offstage, however, it grants Bowser with a kamikaze attack (and can actually be cancelled once the foe is KO'd, allowing Bowser to at least attempt to recover. When Bowser combines the Klaw with the Infinite Double Jump Restoration glitch, he forms once of the most amazing approach/retreating techniques to ever exist.

Grab Release - One of the many reasons why Bowser's ground game is so good; Bowser has many, many options out of a Grab Release, and Kirby doesn't like a single one of them. And Bowser's range isn't completely horrible, so watch out...

Whirling Fortress - Bowser's only means of offstage recovery; the Fortress has invincibility frames upon its start-up, and has a good bit of priority to boot! Anyone within the immediate vicinity of this move will be sent flying away. Thanks to that, and the invincibility frames, this move is somewhat difficult to gimp. A very quick attack and a great defensive option--whether in the air, or on the ground.

Tilts - All of Bowser's Tilts are amazing, and add to his ground game; they all KO lighter characters at relatively low percents, and have both good range and priority. The F-Tilt and D-Tilt can be used out of a Grab Release, if I recall correctly.

Bowser Bomb - One of Bowser's many KO moves; this attack causes Bowser to drop like a 100 ton brick, either killing or highly damaging anyone dumb enough to stand under it. This provides a safe-ish quick drop to the ledge, if the Bowser player is skilled enough to do so.

F-Smash - The infamous F-Smash; instantly closes threads, and is capable of banning users forever; this is mostly used as a surprise KO move, because of its insane power and disjointed hitboxes. If Kirby gets nailed with this, he very well may not return to the stage...


How to win:
Get Bowser in the air - Bowser loves the ground, so keep him off of it.

Gimp Gimp Gimp! - Bowser's recovery is pretty poor, outside of the invincibilty on start-up. Kirby is a gimp master: Swallocide, Pseudo Cuttercide, D-Air->Footstool spikes, and even the super-situational Fire Breathicide.

Abuse combos - Because Bowser is so huge and heavy, Kirby has a field day whenever he gets a combo started up. Bowser will have a hard time getting out any Grab/aerial combo (aside from the good o' Fortress).


Spit or Swallow?
This is really up to preference; for some reason, Kirby is able to use projectile and long-range attacks a lot more effectively than the characters he stole them from. That said, Kirby's Copied Flame Breath seems to have a bit more range than Bowser's making camping a perfectly viable option for Kirby, because approaching Bowser is a dangerous thing. Otherwise, leaving the Swallowcide option open is useful at any time.


What NOT to do:
Get Klawed - This spells trouble no matter which character you're using. Watch for this move at all times.

Rush in recklessly - Bowser's ground game is simply excellent, and will often mindgame Kirby into approaching, which is exactly what he wants you to do...


Stages (in order of priority):

NOTE:: Luckily, all of Bowser's bad stages are Kirby's good ones

Jungle Japes - The amazingly high ceiling makes it difficult for Bowser to KO Kirby ff the top, and the water (plus Bowser's poor swimming ability) makes for easy easy easy gimp KOs. The Bowser will most likely ban this stage; but if that's the case, you could always take him to...

Brinstar - Bowser relies a lot on ledges, so separating the main floor of the stage leaves a huge gap for Bowser to get gimped through, and the funky platforms are some of the few Bowser does not like.

Norfair - Bowser is a creature of fire, so it's only natural this would arguably be his best stage. The lava hazard will take forever to KO Bowser, but will take one of Kirby's stock in about half the time. While Kirby usually likes platforms, Bowser has a better advantage here, and he loves the many grabbable ledges, as well. I'd recommend banning this one.

Battlefield - With Norfair banned, a favorable neutral will be the Bowser player's next-best counterpick against you.


Synopsis:
Bowser is a beast of a character: capable of KOing at low percents, and surviving into the +200% area. His Klaw is one the best moves in the entire game, and his ground game is amazing; however, get him in the air, and Bowser's in major trouble...Securing this victory shouldn't be a problem for Kirby, but it's not guaranteed, so play cautiously...


Major Contributors: platipoos, JayDeth, Fastyouwish937, MrEh, A1lion835

You know the drill...


- IC3R, Official Star Warrior

 

[IC3R]

Just to get attention to the thread.

 

[B!squick]

I would have to disagree with someone who said that battlefield was bowser's best neutral. I think FD is better. More space to grab release, and a lot of his damage can come from this if you're not careful. If a bowser grabs you and grab releases you all the way across FD then follows it up with something, that crap just sucks. Kirby grabbing bowser messes makes it really easy to get bowser into the air, but bowser grabbing kirby just screws over that stock. Be careful with your grabs basically, you really dont even need to go in for grabs that often. Pretty big target, not hard to combo.

Final Destination isn't as good as you think. It's blast zones are further away then you would expect and Battlefield is favored more because it's smaller and the platforms are excellent for landing Up Tilts and Up Smashes and the size and platfroms tend to make projectile spam alot less effect effective which is what alot of the cast has over Bowser.

Honestly, while Bowser's grab game may be nuts, actually getting that first grab is easier said then done. It's not uncommon to go a whole match without a single grab, SideB not included. It's range is really poor when compared to SideB's animation, let alone the actual range, and even the standing grab has a slight lag when you whif.

Also, Vex has been needing to update that grab release thread.

 

[Asdioh]

I don't know much about Bowser's Grab Release, other than I usually get Grab Released to Dtilt...

He can regrab you, and there's nothing you can do about it..?

And I actually wouldn't recommend Brinstar against Bowser. It has plenty of pros, but the cons don't make it worth it against Bowser. It's pretty easy to recover on Brinstar (close blastzone, a ledge, and a platform, plus the chance of hitting acid if you're falling down)

And Bowser can KO you ludicrously fast on that stage.

Jungle Japes sounds great to me.

If my opponent banned that stage, I'd probably take him to Brinstar anyway, but that's just me :D

 

[IC3R]

And I actually wouldn't recommend Brinstar against Bowser. It has plenty of pros, but the cons don't make it worth it against Bowser. It's pretty easy to recover on Brinstar (close blastzone, a ledge, and a platform, plus the chance of hitting acid if you're falling down)

And Bowser can KO you ludicrously fast on that stage.

Jungle Japes sounds great to me.

If my opponent banned that stage, I'd probably take him to Brinstar anyway, but that's just me :D

I was thinking about this as I was doing the write-up, but I looked through MenoUnderWater's "Counterpicking Made Easy" thread, and it had Brinstar listed as a bad Bowser stage; so, I started thinking up reasons why...

I really think it's mostly because of that ******** middle area, where Kirby can easily Swallowcide through the hole, granted there's no acid rising up. In that case, you can just repeatedly spike Bowser into the acid until it goes back down, I guess. Bowser has crappy jumps and poor vertical recovery, so if he gets too far below the stage/ledges, he has no hope of returning. And even if he tries to recover to the side ledges, he might miss the ledge just because...

Bowser can KO well, but he has to get to Kirby first. If Kirby has already broken the stage in two, and absorbed Bowser's Fire Breath, then Bowser is going to have a hell of a time approaching him.

But I dunno, I haven't actually played the game since the beginning of January >>;

 

[B!squick]

Brinstar's a weird stage. The acid means he'll live long. In fact, if it weren't for the acid and the shape of the stage, it'd pretty much be Battlefield only Bowser can recover up through the stage if need be. Since you kinda loose the spit under the stage thing, you're probably better off just picking Battlefield.

Might I suggest Rainbow Cruise?

 

[IC3R]

Brinstar's a weird stage. The acid means he'll live long. In fact, if it weren't for the acid and the shape of the stage, it'd pretty much be Battlefield only Bowser can recover up through the stage if need be. Since you kinda loose the spit under the stage thing, you're probably better off just picking Battlefield.

Well, repeated acid trips for Bowser means a good F-Smash KO from Kirby. Kirby doesn't have to use a kamikaze tactic to win...And can Bowser really gain enough height off of the Fortress to come back up through the stage? The gap in the middle means Bowser has to leave the ground to get to Kirby, and he doesn't like leaving the ground very often. Kirby can stageshark like no one's business...

Might I suggest Rainbow Cruise?

Blargh.

 

[DFat2]

Might I suggest Rainbow Cruise?

Either Rainbow Cruise or Jungle Japes. RC would be the Obvious choice; too obvious. You might get counter picked with MK or Marth. Hell, even G&W. The stage is too good for Kirby, but it's too good for his bad match ups.

If they Ban RC, JG all the way. And if you Know they can counter with MK, go JG Instead. You could manage a MK there way better.

 

[platiepoos]

Playing against my friends mediocre Bowser, here are some things I've noticed.

-First of all, Bowser is not slow. Get that into your head. A Bowser player wants you to play leniently so he can punsih laggy moves you thought were safe to use because "Boozer's 2 beeg n sloow to puneesh!!1!" Play Bowser like you would any other character.

-Kirby's ledge game isn't as good in this matchup because of the constant possibility of being taken out by a Klaw. This can be especially frustrating after you've racked some major damage with your throw combos and were about to go for the kill. If you get Klawed, FIGHT BACK! I've seen videos where players just give in to the Klaw and get KO'ed when they could have DI'ed to the stage.

-Be on the lookout for fsmash. It has disjointed hitboxes so you should never try to outprioritize it, or risk the loss of a stock.

-Use the Bowser's mindset to your advantage. Kirby is a Bowser counter, so play like one. His general idea will be to camp you on the ground. Be on the lookout to punish laggy moves that are in no way "slow" (see first bullet) and rack up damage with throw comboes. Control the stage, and don't let your opponent gain any momentum.

That's my two cents. Also, can we fsmash Bowser's Fortress after the super armor?

 

[MK26]

Here's the latest iteration of the matchup chart. We're almost done!

As (I hope) you can see, we have:
Luigi
Ness
Samus
Sonic
Link
Jigglypuff

I'm going to try a new voting format. Your first choice is a vote worth 2, and your second is worth 1. I'm awesome, so my votes are worth .5 more. No putting both votes toward one character, but you can opt out of your second vote.

With that, let the voting begin!

First - Luigi
Second - Jigglypuff

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I'll vote Luigi for the thrid time, Jigglypuff is easy and odvious to know the match up at this point, Luigi's match up is very confusing to say 55-50 or 60-40 Kirby, while Kirby can stone him when he tries to get back, he can use many more methods of comming back, also chain grabs will be less effective on Luigi because simply he can just use N-Air to jack up your flow.

.... Ok, I'll save some if we do start on Luigi. ☆

 

[B!squick]

And can Bowser really gain enough height off of the Fortress to come back up through the stage?

From either ledge I was able to drop, jump, and UpB to the middle hill or the opposite side of the stage. Without that jump though, there was no way. At least when I dropped from the ledge and tried it.

Also, can we fsmash Bowser's Fortress after the super armor?

To clarify, Fortress has invincibility frames NOT super armor. As for actually FSmashing it, I don't know. I don't have enough hands to properly test this. x_x


Also, here's a quick run down of Bowser's good and bad stages:

Good:

Smashville - Ledge is impossible to miss, small blastzones good for early kos, moving platform =sex for koopahopping.

Battlefield - Utilt/Usmash ***** on platforms, platform camping, etc.

Norfair - Lots of ledges, platforms, etc. Good for ****.

Bad:

Yoshi's Island - Koopahopping is pretty much null here.

Japes - Reasons are pretty obvious.

FD - Not BAD, but bad vs. campers like Falco, etc. I generally take Snake here if I can't go Smashville.


Basically the gist of it.

 

[DFat2]

Playing against my friends mediocre Bowser, here are some things I've noticed.

-First of all, Bowser is not slow. Get that into your head. A Bowser player wants you to play leniently so he can punsih laggy moves you thought were safe to use because "Boozer's 2 beeg n sloow to puneesh!!1!" Play Bowser like you would any other character.

-Kirby's ledge game isn't as good in this matchup because of the constant possibility of being taken out by a Klaw. This can be especially frustrating after you've racked some major damage with your throw combos and were about to go for the kill. If you get Klawed, FIGHT BACK! I've seen videos where players just give in to the Klaw and get KO'ed when they could have DI'ed to the stage.

-Be on the lookout for fsmash. It has disjointed hitboxes so you should never try to outprioritize it, or risk the loss of a stock.

-Use the Bowser's mindset to your advantage. Kirby is a Bowser counter, so play like one. His general idea will be to camp you on the ground. Be on the lookout to punish laggy moves that are in no way "slow" (see first bullet) and rack up damage with throw comboes. Control the stage, and don't let your opponent gain any momentum.

That's my two cents. Also, can we fsmash Bowser's Fortress after the super armor?

Don't write a Match up Opinion on a Friends "Half Good" character when where discussing him. You have no Idea on what a Top Level character is like and how to fight it unless you've actually played against one.

In other words, we can't apply/find anything you say valid since you already stated you have only played a Mediocre Bowser.

 

[MrEh]

From either ledge I was able to drop, jump, and UpB to the middle hill or the opposite side of the stage. Without that jump though, there was no way. At least when I dropped from the ledge and tried it.



To clarify, Fortress has invincibility frames NOT super armor. As for actually FSmashing it, I don't know. I don't have enough hands to properly test this. x_x


Also, here's a quick run down of Bowser's good and bad stages:

I actually like Yoshi's. ^^

 

[Asdioh]

I also vote for Luigi.

He's.... so good >_>

 

[B!squick]

I actually like Yoshi's. ^^

You know, I do too, but that's mostly because you can't Klaw Hop on wifi anyway.

 

[MK26]

): we need more votes

<_< w/e

Wigi go!

 

[IC3R]

Luigi's air game is beastly...

 

[hippiedude92]

I find it a 50-50 at best or 55-45 in either way or through the use of CPs. Can't be anywhere 60-40 unless its a beastly CP. Airgames are pretty equal, kirbys fsmash is godly just to as luigi's fsmash lolz. its funny how all the boards are starting to do luigi since he seems to be last now lmfao

 

[Asdioh]

Poor weegee..?

Luigi's hard to combo because he's floaty, and his Fair/Nair are insane combo breakers.

Upward-angled Fsmash comes out in about -2 seconds and kills at like... ... what? 80%?

I really don't have enough experience against Luigi. He's not terribly hard to gimp.

I say 50-50...I need more experience with the matchup

 

[A1lion835]

Oh, and on Weegee, his retardedly low traction makes dtilt>fsmash impossible.