The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[lain]

So I waltz in here to find SheerMadness proposing that holding the A button is a great way to keep the IC's away, and all he really said was to bair their shield and di away.

Well smart guy that doesn't say much about kirby if I read correctly.

Oh and lawlz at you attacking Kawaii after being told you're wrong (which you are). That's the perfect sign of someone too immature for a discussion.

"I think this"
"Well this, this, and this, is why you're wrong"
"Well... well I 3 stocked you ONLINE SO HA YOU SUCK AND I AM TEH PHIRE!!1"

gg's join date '05

and FYI I am the best IC player in the nation so I THINK I might know what I'm talking about. maybe just a little?

 

[fromundaman]

lol the 2008'ers always have an attitude. Learn to discuss things without sounding condescending or I'm gonna start calling all you 2008'ers brawl noobs.

Brawl noobs piss me off on the kirby boards. Stop with the attitude and intelligently discuss the matchup.

So, if I adopt a similar way of thinking, I can say that 05ers are all stereotyping fools who will blindly say their main has an advantage in every matchup no matter what?

If you bair their shield then DI away during the bair theres nothing they can do. Most of the time they'll run at you from their shield at which point u turn around and start vulcan jabbing which ***** them.

LOL obviously you don't just stand on the side of the stage vulcan jabbing. Anything you're right next to them via out of spotdodge or w/e just start vulcan jabbing. It comes out instantly and pushes them out of range to do basically anything.

And yes playing smart and you'll win is profound.

This is false. ICs do have ways around spaced Bairs. Yes, it's true that they won't grab you that way, but spaced Bairs do not shut them down. Neither does Vulcan jab for that matter.

For one, Vulcan jab is not an immediate move. You have to do 2 hits before you et any real range on it (not sure why the 2nd hit has such small range, since it initiates the repeating part of the jab, which has good range), and both of those first two hits can be shieldgrabbed, not to mention I *believe* they can grab you out of it if they perfect shield any hit. Finally, they can just DI behind Kirby, and as such not get 'pushed out of range'.

Lastly, that's not profound, just obvious.

Yes, talking about a flaw you made in 3 posts apiece definitely shows our incapability to discuss a matchup.

Are you ******** or something? Guess what everyone can do out of a shield (hint: begins with "shield", ends with "grab", and has nothing in the middle).

Actually, ICs have a terrible grab range and CANNOT shield grab a well-spaced Bair. On top of that, Nana does not always shield at the same time as Popo, so she might be hit by it as well. (That's not to say they can't get around our Bair, but it is true that they can't shieldgrab it if it's well-spaced.)




As for the actual matchup... I don't play it too much tbh, at least not with Kirby. We can gimp the ICs fairly well. Aerial hammer tends to be a better kill move than Fsmash if we can land it since they can't shieldgrab it (or at least not as easily.).

Generally speaking, spaced Bairs and WoPs are the way to go here if you can. FC might be useful here too, just make sure you're far enough to not get punished. Vulcan jab and Ftilt are pretty good as well. However watch out because none of these things are guaranteed, and if the IC player plays it smart (IE not go for grabs exclusively, which will make you get punished hard for an anti-grab playstyle, then taking grabs if/when they present themselves), he/she can seriously wreck you with desynched blizzard approaches or even any desynched approach (I don't know enough about ICs to know what else they go for.). Oh, and NEVER use stone in this matchup, unless you're absolutely 100% sure you won't get grabbed for it.

Oh, and couldn't ICs punish a Uthrow by having Nana Usmash as you come down?

Edit:

and FYI I am the best IC player in the nation so I THINK I might know what I'm talking about. maybe just a little?

Lol Lain, proof and real credentials aren't as impressive as vague, boastful statements of superiority!

 

[DFat2]

Unless you all didn't know, the argument is ridiculous. Yes you in fact, CAN Shield Grab a Bair. How you ask? Easy.

Instead of Pressing the A button when the Bair hits your shield, you instead DROP THE SHIELD and quickly DO A DASH GRAB.

If it's a Spaced Bair, Do ^^^. If it's a Falling Bair, do a Normal Shield Grab. If it's a Rising Bair, Jump OOS and Nair.

/discussion

 

[CaliburChamp]

Kirby deals most of his damage from early % grab combos, the only grab Kirby can use without getting Nana'd is up-throw. Use Kirby's multi-hit moves like Dash attack and D-air. Be weary of using moves with lot of ending lag because that's IC grab bait. You will want to keep the IC in the air, because when they are not grounded they cant use their broken grabs. Fortunately most of Kirby's combo's lead or start with up-tilt. Like Up-air to up-tilt, this will keep IC in the air where they are weak.
Also, if the IC are separated, try your best to suck up Nana as you spit her out over the stage, most of the time Nana won't get back.

 

[SheerMadness]

Oh and lawlz at you attacking Kawaii after being told you're wrong (which you are). That's the perfect sign of someone too immature for a discussion.

She attacked me 1st buddy, get it right. Instead of discussing the matchup she attacked me, so I attacked back.

Instead of Pressing the A button when the Bair hits your shield, you instead DROP THE SHIELD and quickly DO A DASH GRAB.

Thats exactly why I said you can DI the bair away turn around and vulcan jab to shutdown the dash grab.

Kirby can easily seperate IC, prevent a grab, and take advantage of their recovery. Kirby outranges pritty much everything they do outside of blizzard too. Thus, IMO it seems like Kirby has more advantages than disadvantages in the matchup which is why I give it 60-40 Kirby.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I just..I dont even know how to respond.

I give up on humanity.

 

[Kewkky]

Welcome to the Lurker Club, Falcon.

 

[choice_brawler]

I haven't played IC's that often, but from the times that i have this is what i've seen:

IC's cant shield grab your bair if you do it right, and i think we'd all agree that thats what we should be striving for, so its just a matter of practicing how to space your bairs and thats solved. Watch out for the dash grab when you're landing IF you're landing, staying in the air means they cant grab you so make use of the multi-jumps. I can see jabbing working to shut down the running grab but after seeing it once i just jumped again and punished it the next time.

I remember reading someone mention that kirby deals a lot of his damage during low % grab combos. Personally i think its sort of a bad habit to do so, always going for the grab at low %, generally speaking as well. After a while they'll wisen up and know you're going for just grabs and that will not end well if you dont adapt. Going for grab combos on IC's would be the same as trying to go for your grab combos on DK, or worse cuz you might get grabbed yourself and then you just lost that stock since apparently kirby's one of the easiest people to CG (This kinda makes me feel better cuz everytime i got grabbed i just died. Maybe it wasnt just me not knowing how to properly DI the CG, if that helps any).

IC's dont really have it all that easy to land the grab, even with desynchs since kirby will probably be in the air most the time. They'll uair and stuff though so dont think you're off the hook.

Its a pretty straight forward match up imo. IC's want to grab you, you dont want to get grabbed, you WoP and do sneaky things, like not falling into a pattern.

 

[lain]

1: Mew2King ($1750)
2: Ally ($875)
3: Spammer ($420)
4: Dojo ($175)
5: NinjaLink ($85)
5: Lee ($85)
7: ChuDat ($55)
7: Judge ($55)
9: Infinity
9: VexKasrani
9: Ksizzle
9: Lain
13: NEO
13: OmegaBlackMage
13: Jash
13: Anther

What? The highest placing IC and DDD (though vex tied me)? Well would ya look at that.

Maybe people should actually read up on **** before they start making strong claims?

Just a thought.

 

[Asdioh]

1: Mew2King ($1750)
2: Ally ($875)
3: Spammer ($420)
4: Dojo ($175)
5: NinjaLink ($85)
5: Lee ($85)
7: ChuDat ($55)
7: Judge ($55)
9: Infinity
9: VexKasrani
9: Ksizzle
9: Lain
13: NEO
13: OmegaBlackMage
13: Jash
13: Anther

Kirby placed higher, that means Kirby > Ice Climbers!

(just kidding)

As for the matchup...Lain, come to http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221147 , moneymatch me, let's get it recorded :]

Again, I can't believe we've been to at least 3 tournaments together and never played. I am curious about the matchup now..I firmly believed it was 50-50, because I think Kirby has an easier time separating than many other characters, and he can also follow the CPU IC around in the air and combo it really easily (assuming it doesn't mindgame you like tends to happen to me on wifi)

What does Kirby lack that gives other characters a better chance at beating Ice Climbers? A projectile?

Is the "easy to chaingrab" argument even valid? We are talking about top levels of play here, no matter WHAT character you are, you get grabbed by Ice Climbers, you lose a stock.

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby placed higher, that means Kirby > Ice Climbers!

(just kidding)

Correction:

Chudat placed higher, that means Chu > IC's!

(not kidding)

 

[Falconv1.0]

Correction:

o i c wut u did thar

 

[SheerMadness]

Why the hell does lain keep trying to prove hes the best IC for like no reason on this thread? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

The only reason I brought up tourney placings was because people were trying to use my perceived lack of credibility to bash my opinions which no one is doing to you. Basically all you've offered to this thread is that "Kirby's range is too pathetic to do anything". Aside from that all you've done is stroke your ego on here. Either discuss the matchup or don't post.

I play Fox in melee and Kirby in brawl. And their matchups against IC seem similar in both games. Both of them get ***** if they get grabbed but if you play it right you really shouldnt be getting grabbed.

 

[lain]

I'm not I'm just saying that me and Kawaii Bunny KNOW what we're talking about. That's the simple fact I'm trying to get across.

Kirby doesn't have the maneuverability to deal with IC's. He can't deal with desynced blizzards (besides doing a final cutter, but honestly I could just have popo run up and powershield when you come down and grab you). Bair spacing is described as futile in this matchup since if you land and DON'T autocancel it you're ****ed. It's ridiculously hard to approach the IC's because of their superior (although still ****ty) grab range, blizzards leading into grabs, and their pretty amazing air game.

Sorry man, I just don't see it.

BTW I played fox in melee too and it's nothing like that. It's more like a whole bunch of tricky fast l-canceling since ic's had two shields, and good ones would light shield to try and **** you. and doubles shines. lots of doubles shines.


and yes Asdioh I will mm you i guess?

 

[Asdioh]

(besides doing a final cutter, but honestly I could just have popo run up and powershield when you come down and grab you).

For some reason, at first glance I read that as

"besides doing a final cutter, but honestly I could just run and poop and come back and grab you"

And I thought it was funny because it's true.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Just to throw in my two cents: Kirby vs ICs is a horrendous matchup for Kirby. In my opinion, its definitely one of his worst matchups. Kirby has absolutely no disjointed hitboxes other than his final cutter and hammer, neither of which are good enough to keep the ICs away, which means that all the ICs have to do is shield one thing and they get a grab on him. None of Kirby's throws are able to protect him from the other IC, either (no, not even up throw), so that won't work too well. Plus, good spacing to avoid getting grabbed against good ICs doesn't work well, because ICs can rack up huge damage otherwise, and you can't effectively space out their attacks AND their grabs with Kirby.

Kirby can't do much in this matchup.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Well, I would say he doesn't have enough hit box, I'll add Dash, Up-Tilt, Down-B when it hit's the ground and his grab range a little. The best way to grab an Ice Climbers is the Up-Throw because it escapes the other Ice Climbers for hitting you when you grab him/her, (if you grab the right one), and B-Throw because it's quicker than anyother Kirby grab even if you grab the wrong one. Also, my advice, when facing a good Ice Climbers main, don't pick a flat stage, picking flat stages or stage's that don't morth is asking you to get chain grabbed easily. The advatage that Kirby has over Ice Climbers is that Ice Climbers is easily desyiced in this game, so if you poke through their shield, if you hit the CPU Ice Climbers, it's your chance to kill him/her, no regreats. Also, King of the Sky's Kirby can basicly keep poking your shield in the air until it's too small then he can attack the Ice Climbers, but doing a stratagy like that will take the match forever, so I'll say that Kirby vs Ice Climbers match is like a game of Chess.... I hate playing like this in Brawl, so I'll use a counter pick for Ice Climbers. ☆

 

[fromundaman]

Asdioh, I can't stop laughing at your last post.

Quick question out of curiosity: Why aren't the ICs considered a counter to every character in the game? No matter how you look at it, they seem to be the best punishers in the game. Yeah, we could Bair all game (which I don't think would work anyway), but eventually we're bound to make a mistake, and every mistake costs a stock. This is the same for every character.
Basically, what are ICs lacking? (And does Kirby have a way of taking advantage of whatever that is?)


Personally, I don't see how Kirby could even come close to even with ICs...

(BTW Lain, I wasn't doubting your credentials. I know who you are. I was just poking fun at how some people seem to think they know better despite having not shown much for themselves other than vague boastful claims.(Wait... that describes me too, doesn't it? ****it...))

 

[IC3R]

Okay, Big Wall Of Text Time...

Well, how is it even or better for any other character? Even if they do have projectiles, so what?

If the Kirby:IC matchup isn't even neutral, then I fail to see how any other character (beside a couple) has an easier time than Kirby does.

But other than that, Kirby shouldn't have a harder time than anyone else. His Upthrow is great, he can combo them pretty well, he can separate pretty easily with Bair and upthrow, vulcan jab does well, he can gimp Ice Climbers better than most, he can Copy their power and shout "Yah!", Kirbycide works wonders on Nana, Inhale in general is pretty good, etc. etc.

A good post by Asdioh. He mentions that the Ice Climbers' main weakness is getting forcefully separated; U-Throw is good for this. I, personally, would not Copy the Ice Block, but it's a matter fo preferrence.

Hopefully Lain goes to the March 7th tourney that I plan on going to, and I can moneymatch him and stuff. He's one of the best, if not THE best, Ice Climbers I know of.

Here's one testimony of Lain being a high-level ICs player.

Anyway, all I know of that you have to watch out for is:

1. Grabs. 0-death against every character, obviously. I get the impression that Kirby is slightly harder to successfully chaingrab to death because of his weight and size, but I don't know a whole lot about the IC chaingrab because I don't practice lame stuff like that

2. Blizzard. Kirby doesn't really have anything to beat it, except Final Cutter. Speaking of which, Final Cutter > Ice Block. But Blizzard isn't exactly hard to see coming, and it does not hit above Ice Climbers, which is a fairly vulnerable position.

Okay, some moves to watch for. This brings something to focus on in the matchup.

He's the easiest to CG.

lolwut? KB refutes the underlined text.

☆ Really? I though Jigglypuff was... ☆

Jiggs is actually a little hard to cg cause she's the lightest and thus it requires tighter timing.

And yes I am the best. :]

Self-testimony, but whatever...

Kirby beats Ice Climbers because they shouldn't be able to grab you.

This has some value. Should a Kirby player master the Infinite Double-Jump Restoration techniue by using B-Airs, then this comment would have some merit; however, not many Kirby players know how to do this, and risked getting Shield->DashGrabbed upon landing. The Climbers would be forced to do this because, unlike Kirby, the IC's don't have disjointed grabboxes.

More like Kirby's range is too pathetic to do ANYTHING versus IC's.

They have a grounded projectile and the Blizzard Wall. As for the priority of their hammers, I am unsure.

The only good thing Kirby has going for him in this matchup is his gimping ability. He can't afford to get grabbed. I consider Kirby and Olimar the two easiest to chaingrab (Besides Bowser, DK, etc.)

Alright, this adds a count to the "Don't get grabbed" common-knowledge.

This is one of those matchups where Kirby is desperately trying to space with BAir the entire match, lulz. 60-40 matchup. :]

Being a Kirby and an IC main, Kawaii Bunny has a good idea of what she is talking about. She has merit with the matchup.

Edit: Btw, about the blizzard thing, some ICs like me like to desynch the blizzards so that one Ice Climber is shooting it and the other Ice Climber can UpAir/UpTilt the opponent if they go overhead.

And here is the anti-air IC's option. Kirby's B-Air will not outdo the Blizzard wall + desynched aerial combination.

♪ Jabs = Kirby wins
Tilts = Kirby wins
Smash Attacks = Kirby wins
Air Moves= Kirby win
Air Recovery = Kirby wins
Grab Range = Kirby wins
Grab Combos = Ice Climbers win
Projectiles = Ice Climbers win
Useful B Moves = Ice Climbers win
Better Up B Recovery = Ice Climbers win
Better Attack Range = Ice Climbers win

This is a bit useful. Thank you, Lovely.

♪ I use to think that Kirby always had a disadvantage over Ice Climbers, but some time now Ice Climbers are getting predictable. Ice Climbers are easily separated, and if you pick a non flat stage, Ice Climbers won't have a good chance of grabbing you. My mind is set to an even match up now.

@ underlined text1: Unfortunately, so is Kirby.
@ underlined text2: Now we have some criteria for counterpick.

I'd say 60-40 in Kirby's favor.

If you space bair correctly theres not much they can do. Anytime you're next to them just start vulcan jabbing which ***** them. Dair is also really good seperating them and poking their shield.

If you understand how to fight IC with Kirby then you should have the advantage but a lot of people don't know what to do vs them.

This post has little value. In theory, if one plays smart, one will win (unless it's DK vs. D3; DK loses. Period); but in practice, everything theorized does not work.

lol the 2008'ers always have an attitude. Learn to discuss things without sounding condescending or I'm gonna start calling all you 2008'ers brawl noobs.

Yes I'm serious.

The idiocy begins. Join date has little-to-nothing to do with knowledge of the game. I was playing Melee for five years before I discovered this site. Granted, I wasn't that good a player, but I knew a lot about the game itself as well as some Advanced Techniques.

If you bair their shield then DI away during the bair theres nothing they can do. Most of the time they'll run at you from their shield at which point u turn around and start vulcan jabbing which ***** them.

LOL obviously you don't just stand on the side of the stage vulcan jabbing. Anything you're right next to them via out of spotdodge or w/e just start vulcan jabbing. It comes out instantly and pushes them out of range to do basically anything.

And yes playing smart and you'll win is profound.

Again, theory is different than practice.

Brawl noobs piss me off on the kirby boards. Stop with the attitude and intelligently discuss the matchup.

Brawl noobs apparantly classifies as anyone who joined Smashboards in the year of 2008, which happens to be the same year Brawl came out. "Brawl noobs" is an idiotic stereotype since little-to-no technical knowledge from 64/Melee can actually be applied to Brawl; they can't help to know what they do. There is no room for name-calling here.

Snake's vs Kirby is in Kirby's advantage according to you. Join date =/= intelligence.

Bunny you shouldn't make **** up to make other people sound dumb. I definitely never said Kirby has an advantage on Snake lololol.

While you may not have actually said it, this is what your attitude is being viewed as. Simple miscommunication: we should all work to improve this.

Also I almost 3 stocked Bunny last time we played IC vs Kirby online so shows what she knows about the matchup.

If I recall correctly, during our Ganondorf matchup discussion, you said that you didn't care who played on Wi-fi:

Why on earth would I care about people playing online?

Nicely done.

And I remember 2 stocking you right before that. Lol?

So she beat you, then you beat her. She must know something...

Are you ******** or something? Guess what everyone can do out of a shield (hint: begins with "shield", ends with "grab", and has nothing in the middle).

LOLOL

This proves how big a brawl noob you are if you don't think its possible to hit a shield with bair and DI away to not get shieldgrabbed.

Alright, aside form the name-calling, you are simply defending your standpoint. Okay, so if they can't grab you, what would their other options be? I'm seeing a Hyphen-Smash swiftly coming along...

Sheer Madness is basically defending his argument by calling us all noobs based on join date.

I've gotten the same impression, and I haven't posted for a good while.

Can some IC's players seriously shut him up, I'm out of energy for this fool. When you bring up beating someone online your credibility goes to ****.

I just want some more IC players so that we can have an intelligent discussion.

So I waltz in here to find SheerMadness proposing that holding the A button is a great way to keep the IC's away, and all he really said was to bair their shield and di away.

Well smart guy that doesn't say much about kirby if I read correctly.

This is true, SheerMadness; you really haven't offered much outside of "Space the B-Airs, don't get grabbed, and use the Vulcan Jab".

Oh and lawlz at you attacking Kawaii after being told you're wrong (which you are). That's the perfect sign of someone too immature for a discussion.

"I think this"
"Well this, this, and this, is why you're wrong"
"Well... well I 3 stocked you ONLINE SO HA YOU SUCK AND I AM TEH PHIRE!!1"

and FYI I am the best IC player in the nation so I THINK I might know what I'm talking about. maybe just a little?

ICs do have ways around spaced Bairs. Yes, it's true that they won't grab you that way, but spaced Bairs do not shut them down. Neither does Vulcan jab for that matter.

For one, Vulcan jab is not an immediate move. You have to do 2 hits before you get any real range on it (not sure why the 2nd hit has such small range, since it initiates the repeating part of the jab, which has good range), and both of those first two hits can be shieldgrabbed, not to mention I *believe* they can grab you out of it if they perfect shield any hit. Finally, they can just DI behind Kirby, and as such not get 'pushed out of range'.

Finally, some more insight.

Actually, ICs have a terrible grab range and CANNOT shield grab a well-spaced Bair. On top of that, Nana does not always shield at the same time as Popo, so she might be hit by it as well. (That's not to say they can't get around our Bair, but it is true that they can't shieldgrab it if it's well-spaced.)

As for the actual matchup... I don't play it too much tbh, at least not with Kirby. We can gimp the ICs fairly well. Aerial hammer tends to be a better kill move than Fsmash if we can land it since they can't shieldgrab it (or at least not as easily.).

Generally speaking, spaced Bairs and WoPs are the way to go here if you can. FC might be useful here too, just make sure you're far enough to not get punished. Vulcan jab and Ftilt are pretty good as well. However watch out because none of these things are guaranteed, and if the IC player plays it smart (IE not go for grabs exclusively, which will make you get punished hard for an anti-grab playstyle, then taking grabs if/when they present themselves), he/she can seriously wreck you with desynched blizzard approaches or even any desynched approach (I don't know enough about ICs to know what else they go for.). Oh, and NEVER use stone in this matchup, unless you're absolutely 100% sure you won't get grabbed for it.

fromundaman has always been good with discussion. Get this: HE ACTUALLY DEFENDED SHEERMADNESS' THEORY OF SPACED B-AIRS!!!!

Oh, and couldn't ICs punish a Uthrow by having Nana Usmash as you come down?

Well, this ruins the U-Throw theory. See what I mean?

Use Kirby's multi-hit moves like Dash attack and D-air. Be weary of using moves with lot of ending lag because that's IC grab bait. You will want to keep the IC in the air, because when they are not grounded they cant use their broken grabs. Fortunately most of Kirby's combo's lead or start with up-tilt. Like Up-air to up-tilt, this will keep IC in the air where they are weak.
Also, if the IC are separated, try your best to suck up Nana as you spit her out over the stage, most of the time Nana won't get back.

More useful "How to win" insight.

She attacked me 1st buddy, get it right. Instead of discussing the matchup she attacked me, so I attacked back.

Turn the other cheek.

Thats exactly why I said you can DI the bair away turn around and vulcan jab to shutdown the dash grab.

Kirby can easily seperate IC, prevent a grab, and take advantage of their recovery. Kirby outranges pretty much everything they do outside of blizzard too. Thus, IMO it seems like Kirby has more advantages than disadvantages in the matchup which is why I give it 60-40 Kirby.

This part of the post is fine.

I haven't played IC's that often, but from the times that i have this is what i've seen:

IC's cant shield grab your bair if you do it right, and i think we'd all agree that thats what we should be striving for, so its just a matter of practicing how to space your bairs and thats solved. Watch out for the dash grab when you're landing IF you're landing, staying in the air means they cant grab you so make use of the multi-jumps. I can see jabbing working to shut down the running grab but after seeing it once i just jumped again and punished it the next time.

Okay, so multiple people agree that spaced B-Airs can keep the IC's from ShieldGrabbing you; one simply has to be cautious of the DashGrab. This is why I brought up Infinite Double-Jump Restoration: you won't have to land and get *****.

IC's dont really have it all that easy to land the grab, even with desynchs since kirby will probably be in the air most the time. They'll uair and stuff though so dont think you're off the hook.

Its a pretty straight forward match up imo. IC's want to grab you, you dont want to get grabbed, you WoP and do sneaky things, like not falling into a pattern.

Alrighty, a great post by choice_brawler.

Why the hell does lain keep trying to prove hes the best IC for like no reason on this thread? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Because if he is the best IC's player, than his knowledge and skill count for more.

The only reason I brought up tourney placings was because people were trying to use my perceived lack of credibility to bash my opinions which no one is doing to you. Basically all you've offered to this thread is that "Kirby's range is too pathetic to do anything". Aside from that all you've done is stroke your ego on here. Either discuss the matchup or don't post.

I suggest you do the same.

Both of them get ***** if they get grabbed but if you play it right you really shouldnt be getting grabbed.

Right, "don't get grabbed".

I'm not I'm just saying that me and Kawaii Bunny KNOW what we're talking about. That's the simple fact I'm trying to get across.

Kirby doesn't have the maneuverability to deal with IC's. He can't deal with desynced blizzards (besides doing a final cutter, but honestly I could just have popo run up and powershield when you come down and grab you). Bair spacing is described as futile in this matchup since if you land and DON'T autocancel it you're ****ed. It's ridiculously hard to approach the IC's because of their superior (although still ****ty) grab range, blizzards leading into grabs, and their pretty amazing air game.

Okay...so stay off the ground, and be cautios in the air for Kirby.

For some reason, at first glance I read that as "besides doing a final cutter, but honestly I could just run and poop and come back and grab you"

lulz.

Just to throw in my two cents: Kirby vs ICs is a horrendous matchup for Kirby. In my opinion, its definitely one of his worst matchups. Kirby has absolutely no disjointed hitboxes other than his final cutter and hammer, neither of which are good enough to keep the ICs away, which means that all the ICs have to do is shield one thing and they get a grab on him. None of Kirby's throws are able to protect him from the other IC, either (no, not even up throw), so that won't work too well. Plus, good spacing to avoid getting grabbed against good ICs doesn't work well, because ICs can rack up huge damage otherwise, and you can't effectively space out their attacks AND their grabs with Kirby.

Kirby can't do much in this matchup.

Panda-san has spoken...


I'll eventually organize all this information (or lack thereof, thanks to the flamefight), and probably bug the Ice Climber boards for more discussion. It worked for the Ganon boards, so it should work this way as well...

...but not everything works in practice, like it does in theory...

Quick question out of curiosity: Why aren't the ICs considered a counter to every character in the game? No matter how you look at it, they seem to be the best punishers in the game. Yeah, we could Bair all game (which I don't think would work anyway), but eventually we're bound to make a mistake, and every mistake costs a stock. This is the same for every character.

Basically, what are ICs lacking? (And does Kirby have a way of taking advantage of whatever that is?)

Personally, I don't see how Kirby could even come close to even with ICs...

This is what we should be focusing on, seriously...

 

[YinYang.ERROR]

Just a side note, Star Shooting one IC into the other generally works well in this match-up. Their neutral B is also great for Kirby to use against them. Separating them is the key to winning this match-up, If you can not do that then winning will be difficult.

 

[momochuu]

Asdioh, I can't stop laughing at your last post.

Quick question out of curiosity: Why aren't the ICs considered a counter to every character in the game? No matter how you look at it, they seem to be the best punishers in the game. Yeah, we could Bair all game (which I don't think would work anyway), but eventually we're bound to make a mistake, and every mistake costs a stock. This is the same for every character.
Basically, what are ICs lacking? (And does Kirby have a way of taking advantage of whatever that is?)


Personally, I don't see how Kirby could even come close to even with ICs...

(BTW Lain, I wasn't doubting your credentials. I know who you are. I was just poking fun at how some people seem to think they know better despite having not shown much for themselves other than vague boastful claims.(Wait... that describes me too, doesn't it? ****it...))

They have about 4 approach options. 3 of which are mediocre compared to others. Bad grab range, easily stage counterpicked, Nana is ******** and likes to get herself killed (and is easy to seperate and kill for a lot of characters), not many setups into grabs...

The main thing ICs are good for are racking up damage extremely quickly and punishing mistakes.

The only thing Kirby can do to ICs is gimp Nana and CP them with bad ICs stages (Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise). That's about it

Just a side note, Star Shooting one IC into the other generally works well in this match-up. Their neutral B is also great for Kirby to use against them. Separating them is the key to winning this match-up, If you can not do that then winning will be difficult.

Not really about Kirby's Ice Block being useful. They shoot out two per shot, he shoots out one. One of the ICs Ice Blocks will clash with kirby's one Ice Shot and the other one will keep going torwards Kirby.

 

[fromundaman]

They have about 4 approach options. 3 of which are mediocre compared to others. Bad grab range, easily stage counterpicked, Nana is ******** and likes to get herself killed (and is easy to seperate and kill for a lot of characters), not many setups into grabs...

The main thing ICs are good for are racking up damage extremely quickly and punishing mistakes.

The only thing Kirby can do to ICs is gimp Nana and CP them with bad ICs stages (Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise). That's about it

For those who don't know (like myself) could you explain what those approach options are? (I can think of desynched blizzard, running in and powershield to grab, or maybe sitting back and camping with ice blocks until they come to you...)

If I understand correctly, Kirby's best hope is to CP a bad stage, which implies he has to lose at least one match? Well that seems a very bleak prospect, and VERY far from 50-50...



Edit: Great post btw IC3R.

 

[momochuu]

For those who don't know (like myself) could you explain what those approach options are? (I can think of desynched blizzard, running in and powershield to grab, or maybe sitting back and camping with ice blocks until they come to you...)

If I understand correctly, Kirby's best hope is to CP a bad stage, which implies he has to lose at least one match? Well that seems a very bleak prospect, and VERY far from 50-50...

Desynch Blizzards, Squall Hammer, Running up to the person and shield grabbing, and... desynched Squalls...which are terrible.

 

[YinYang.ERROR]

Not really about Kirby's Ice Block being useful. They shoot out two per shot, he shoots out one. One of the ICs Ice Blocks will clash with kirby's one Ice Shot and the other one will keep going torwards Kirby.

That is why you generally don't use it for that purpose... The idea is that Kirby has a projectile to use that is faster to execute than Final Cutter. If used properly it can rank up some damage without putting Kirby in the range of a grab-combo.

 

[choice_brawler]

That is why you generally don't use it for that purpose... The idea is that Kirby has a projectile to use that is faster to execute than Final Cutter. If used properly it can rank up some damage without putting Kirby in the range of a grab-combo.

You won't use it for the purpose of shooting it at IC's? Its been stated before that FC reflects back both Ice Blocks so use that to fight the projectile war if the IC's start shootin ice blocks, but dont if they're desynched while shooting them (for those who dont know how to tell when that is, its like when the ice blocks are coming at you 1 by 1 instead of in 2's) That could probably lead to popo running in and power shielding the FC and then grabbing you.

Another reason ice block probably isnt that great of a way to rank up damage for kirby is cuz it only does like 1%, doesnt it? If you somehow manage to mindgame the IC's into getting hit.

What its sounding like for this match up is that IC's have terrible approaches, but Kirby has nothing to force the approach other than possibly making use of the infinite second jump recover. Someone said not too many kirby's know how to do that, but if it is a viable option, that just means we need to take some time and learn how so that the matchup is more even for kirby.

 

[SheerMadness]

Well ICER that was probably the longest reply post I've ever seen.

Because if he is the best IC's player, than his knowledge and skill count for more.

Ok so I have better tourney placings than any other Kirby's I've seen aside from Chudat but that doesn't mean I'm about to proclaim my opinions mean more than anyone elses on here. Because they're opinions, nothing more.

This post has little value. In theory, if one plays smart, one will win (unless it's DK vs. D3; DK loses. Period); but in practice, everything theorized does not work.

Sorry kid but anything anyone posts on here about matchups is all theory so you can basically say that about
anything.

And the infinite double jump things sounds competely unrealistic to me. I've already highlighted how you can thwart the dash grab with vulcan jab.

If I recall correctly, during our Ganondorf matchup discussion, you said that you didn't care who played on Wi-fi:

You're right online doesn't mean ****. I only brought that up because she was spouting off personal attacks so I fired back. I don't recall saying anything to the nature of "oh I beat IC online so that means Kirby must have the advantage".

 

[Asdioh]

Just a side note, Star Shooting one IC into the other generally works well in this match-up. Their neutral B is also great for Kirby to use against them. Separating them is the key to winning this match-up, If you can not do that then winning will be difficult.

Starshot is pretty good in this matchup. Kirby DOES have invincibility frames at some point while he's Inhaling one character, and the Starshot does nice damage to both. However, you can get punished after the Inhale/before the Starshot by the other IC, so be careful.

Copying the Iceblock is next to useless, unfortunately. I just like to do it because Kirby with the hood looks so cute =3

This has some value. Should a Kirby player master the Infinite Double-Jump Restoration techniue by using B-Airs, then this comment would have some merit; however, not many Kirby players know how to do this, and risked getting Shield->DashGrabbed upon landing.

I just yesterday learned how to do it with Bowser's Side B...it took almost no practice at all.

Now I'm wondering how to do it with Bair, or with any other move in the game. I really have no idea, and I've practiced it with Kirby before, and with other moves, to no success.

And yes, Vulcan Jab IS great in this matchup. It comes out quickly and gets them off of you. Just be careful not to have it powershielded, because then they can grab you, and that sucks.

Dtilt is pretty good in this matchup.

Some Ice Climbers (or at least Bunny) like to return to the stage with Side B...if you can predict this, the easiest way to punish it is with Final Cutter. It's pretty hard to punish otherwise, because it has hitboxes all over. She also tended to not spam the B button, so that the ICs would just fall down to the stage like that, and I fell for it a lot. Again, Final Cutter is pretty good for this, or if you can shield the whole thing, a grab can punish.

As for Nana's Upsmash beating Upthrow...the point of Upthrow being so good is that Kirby lands on platforms that are above you. This is why Upthrow is so good on stages like Battlefield, Brinstar, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, Delfino, etc.

And stages...ban Final Destination, unless the IC you are about to face is notorious for counterpicking some other stage. And although you may think this is my personal bias, pick Brinstar or Norfair against Ice Climbers. The matchup immediately tips largely in Kirby's favor. And yeah, Rainbow Cruise is good too. In all honesty, if you pick one of those three stages, the Ice Climbers main will most likely switch to another character.

Right Lain? Norfair? Dedede? Teh Spamerer? :D


Good post, IC3R

 

[MK26]

I just yesterday learned how to do it with Bowser's Side B...it took almost no practice at all.

Bowser's side-b is unique in that it cancels when hitting the ground, and there's a massive window to buffer a jump without actually landing. Doing it with A-button aerials is much, much harder.

IC3R gets a major contributor for that huge wall of text that i actually read through

EDIT: Woww so my thread gets locked in 20 minutes while this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214405
Is absolutely thriving, and
...just wow

Would the mod who locked it at least explain why?

 

[lain]

I'm glad IC3R made that HUMONGOUS post clarifying a lot of things.

I guess I'ma have to do nasty things to Asdioh in our mm ;D

 

[A1lion835]

Would the mod who locked it at least explain why?

Because mods like to piss everyone off (yea, I say "******" and that constitutes flaming? wtf? And yea, it's probably the first time I've even said that word on here since I joined. Oh, and now I'm being a bad boy and disrespecting mods, so another 4 points for the ban, right?).

 

[DFat2]

Just to throw in my two cents: Kirby vs ICs is a horrendous matchup for Kirby. In my opinion, its definitely one of his worst matchups. Kirby has absolutely no disjointed hitboxes other than his final cutter and hammer, neither of which are good enough to keep the ICs away, which means that all the ICs have to do is shield one thing and they get a grab on him. None of Kirby's throws are able to protect him from the other IC, either (no, not even up throw), so that won't work too well. Plus, good spacing to avoid getting grabbed against good ICs doesn't work well, because ICs can rack up huge damage otherwise, and you can't effectively space out their attacks AND their grabs with Kirby.

Kirby can't do much in this matchup.

This^ = Thread

This match up is ridiculous for Kirby. The only way the Match up could be 50/50 would be vs a player that emotionally stable (really nervous) or a noob. Any one that could do 0 to death at whim could be considered 60/40 Favor for the Climbers.

I've played the 0 to death Guys. It ain't pretty for Kirby. The best thing for a Kirby player to do against IC's is to always perform Aerials while rising. Never do a Fast Fall Aerial.

There's not much to do with Kirby. Best thing would be to Counter Pick Characters and whatnot because it sucks to hard for Kirby.

To be honest, any one that calls this match up even has either never played a Tourney Level IC, or is Chu.

 

[Falconv1.0]

This^ = Thread

This match up is ridiculous for Kirby. The only way the Match up could be 50/50 would be vs a player that emotionally stable (really nervous) or a noob. Any one that could do 0 to death at whim could be considered 60/40 Favor for the Climbers.

I've played the 0 to death Guys. It ain't pretty for Kirby. The best thing for a Kirby player to do against IC's is to always perform Aerials while rising. Never do a Fast Fall Aerial.

There's not much to do with Kirby. Best thing would be to Counter Pick Characters and whatnot because it sucks to hard for Kirby.

To be honest, any one that calls this match up even has either never played a Tourney Level IC, or is Chu.

Chu can basically get away with calling Snake even though, it's not fair.

Who does really **** tastic vs IC's?

 

[DFat2]

Their like my 13th main (in the sense that I use them for fun and stuff), so I'm not that Pro with them. But what I do know from playing experience is that ROB pretty much screws with them like its a Joke.

His Neutral B can literally Cancel any Desynch. You can Power shield his Laser and Gyro, but if he plays Campy the whole fight, it could be pretty bad for them. I could throw Falco in there as well since his Gey Illusion gets him the Hell away from them.

Pretty much campy players IMO. Wait for Kawaii or Lain to answer accurately, but those are my 2 Cents.

 

[momochuu]

ROB, Snake, GW to an extent, and MK are their hardest matchups.

 

[DFat2]

ROB, Snake, GW to an extent, and MK are their hardest matchups.

MK is obvious (do to his aggressive play style. Doesn't leave them much room to think and Desynch and stuff).

Figured with ROB. Snake's F-Tilt is too good. I didn't expect G&W though. He's pretty easy to get grabbed.

Well, Not so easy, but easier than other characters. But he is Buffed to death and has a lot of knock back which separates IC's pretty easily and blah blah blah.

 

[Asdioh]

I guess I'ma have to do nasty things to Asdioh in our mm ;D

sounds hawt

To be honest, any one that calls this match up even has either never played a Tourney Level IC, or is Chu.

But we're talking about the highest levels of play...if Chudat can beat X character, then so can the "Ideal Kirby" :D?

?

^ this is going to be my avatar when I can crop it

 

[A1lion835]

Edit: Ignore this.

 

[A1lion835]

But we're talking about the highest levels of play...if Chudat can beat X character, then so can the "Ideal Kirby" :D?

This is too awesome.

Sigged.

Edit: wait...why won't my sig show up? Sig...are you alright? Look what you did Asdioh...you broke it with your awesomeness...

 

[IC3R]

ROB, Snake, GW to an extent, and MK are their hardest matchups.

Awesome, R.O.B. is one of my mains

And lulz @ everyone loving my posts, well here's something else to love:

Character: [Ice Climbers]

Difficulty rating: Still discussing, but definitely in the Ice Climbers' favor.

Overview:
The brave little mountain climbers are back! A powerful bloodbond has driven them to climb, not only the tallest mountains, but also conquer their fellow contestors! Armed with twin hammers, Ice-based abilities, and teamwork, the Ice Climbers are ready for action in Brawl! The lead Climber calls the shots, and the helping Climber assists by defending the leader, setting up for a finisher, or aiding in one of the most amazing recoveries ever witnessed. Two climbers means twice the fun, right? Not for you, it isn't...

Pros+Cons-:

• Two characters at once
• Special attacks are almost always useful
• Two good recoveries
• Powerful Smashes
• Quick running speed
• Good aerials, some of which auto-cancel
• ChainGrab Infinites
• Desynching [Offense, Defense, Mindgaming]

• 
  Lightweight targets; easy to KO
  [*]Poor Grab range
  [*]Forced or MisDesynching lead to a dead partner

Watch out for:
ChainGrab - This is the Ice Climbers' best technique, and usually the one they win with; Kirby is, unfortunately, one of the easiest characters for them to ChainGrab, and is saved merely by the fact their grab range is cruddy (but that doesn't help at all). A specific Chaingrab the IC's use can be executed in tight quarters, so even a good CounterPick stage will not save you. They have many, many options at the end of a ChainGrab, so..."Don't get grabbed!"

Blizzard - The Blizzard is one of the IC's best approaches, and also one of their best defensive options; While normally they would shoot ice on both sides, Ice Climbers players will option Short Hop this move so that both bursts of ice are facing forward, dealing +20% easily.

Squall Hammer - Another good multi-purpose attack; Desynched Squall Hammers can be a hell of a difficult time to deal with. It hits multiple times, and the final strike knocks the foe into the air, where they can be juggled with U-Airs.

Ice Shot - The Ice Climbers' only projectile; The Ice Block is one of the reasons that the Ice Climbers are such an annoying character to deal with. It slides across the ground and off of any platform, or even the stage itself. Kirby only has his Final Cutter to blow through the spam, but using it is begging to lose a stock. Desynched Ice Blocks can also be used to Bounce Lock most characters out of a ChainGrab -> onstage F-Air.

F-Smash - The horizontal finisher of a ChainGrab; Usually used against characters with poor recovery, or if the stage has close side Blast Zones.

U-Smash - The vertical finisher out of the ChainGrab; Often used on lightweight characters who are easily KOed off the top (a.k.a. Kirby).

F-Air- This spiking finisher out of a near-edge ChainGrab; By the time they get you to the edge, you may have at least 75%, which almost guarantees the spike.

How to win:
Don't get grabbed - PLEASE DON'T GET GRABBED!!!!

Kill the Helping Climber - Removing the second Climber from the game makes the fight a lot less frustrating.

Stay in the air - The air is where Kirby's strength is at. Here, you cannot be grabbed, and it is imperative that happens.

Space your B-Air - Your B-Air is probably your best option to defend yourself from those crazy Climbers. It is nearly impossible for them to grab you if you are correctly spaced, but who said they have to grab you?

Get predictable - I know it's hard against these guys, but the Ice Climbers are the #1 Punishers of the entire Brawl cast; Marth and Ganondorf don't even come close.

Spit or Swallow?:
Spitting seem to be best when it's 2v1. Not only will it forcefully Desynch the Climbers, but the Climber you suck up can be used in Starshot to damage the main Climber. You are free to Swallow the leading Climber if you've already annihilated the helper. More projectiles means more fun for Kirby...

What NOT to do:
Get grabbed - Getting grabbed usually means you lose a stock, which is not a good thing.

Spam Final Cutter - While it may eat stright through Ice Block spam, Popo Powershield -> Grab means gg to Kirby

Stages (in order of priority):
Rainbow Cruise - It's a stretch, but constantly having to move around will prevent the Ice Climbers from Grabbing you too much, plus a forced Belay recovery will separate the Climbers quickly.

Brinstar - In the event the IC's scratch off Rainbow Cruise, this is a pretty solid choice. The many uneven floors and damagable fleshy things can ruin ChainGrabs and stop Ice Block spam, to an extent.

Yoshi's Island (Brawl) - If you absolutely have to, then pick this stage. The crooked floor could save you, and the tilting platform as well.

Any long, flat stages - Long stage means more room. Flat floor means more ChainGrabs;
Stages that fit this criteria: Final Destination, Smashville, Pictochat (neutral form), Luigi's Mansion (maybe?). Those are the ones that come to mind.

Synopsis:
The key to winning this war for Kirby is to keep to the air. The Ice Climbers may have good aerials, but Kirby is king! Juggling the Climbers shouldn't be a problem thanks to Kirby's quick aerials, and separating them should be a breeze with his many multi-hit attacks. Getting rid of the helping Climber makes the stock-match that much easier; but even then, it's no picnic. Watch for those crazy good Smashes, Ice Block spamming, and Blizzard Walls.

But most importantly: DON'T GET GRABBED!!!!!!!

Major contributors: IC3R, Lain, ~Kawaii Bunny~, Sheer Madness, Asdioh

Any missing or neglected information, or unvoiced opinions are welcomed. Please don't hesitate to respond!


-IC3R, Official Star Warrior

 

[TheFast]

Would the mod who locked it at least explain why?

It was closed because we already have a question and answer sticky. Well that is my guess.