The New Match-up Chart

[malva00]

looks like BOOM's never played a good NESS before

 

[MattNF]

falcon = ness

 

[Deleted member]

falcon = ness

you are a noob

Falcon > Ness

 

[WOTG]

DK = Ness
Luigi = Ness

Play your DK or Luigi against a good Ness Player like Firo.

 

[NixxxoN]

Ness > Falcon with TAS-esque DJC skills

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

DK = Ness to DK > Ness
Jigglypuff = Ness to Jigglypuff > Ness
Pikachu >> DK to Pikachu > DK

Some Agreement:

Luigi = Ness to Luigi > Ness
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon = Ness
Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus

So now Ness is second last, only above Samus. Thoughts anyone? Also of the above four match-ups, only Yoshi = Samus has any sort of consensus.

 

[MattNF]

you are a noob

Falcon > Ness

u mad?

Nevermind. :D

 

[B Link]

man wtf? falcon dash grabs -> ness, you just wait for the right moment and BAM no approach necessary batteries not included

 

[firo]

man wtf? falcon dash grabs -> ness, you just wait for the right moment and BAM no approach necessary batteries not included

Ness's up smash, down smash, dash attack, and most of his aerial moves go through falcon's dash grabs.

 

[Nintendude]

Doesn't Jiggly's Nair make it really hard for Yoshi to approach? And once Yoshi gets a hit in, he really can't do much comboing and he lacks reliable ways to get in his smashes and uair for the kill. On the other hand, Yoshi is a pretty perfect weight for Jiggly's combos. That's my take on Jiggly > Yoshi.

I kind of think the fact that Ness is now 2nd to last indicates that we've been too harsh in his matchups. In particular, I think Pika >> Ness can be toned down to Pika > Ness, especially because Pika can't abuse Ness range-wise. Could it also be perhaps possible that Ness > Luigi? I've been thinking about this more and more. Luigi actually probably is the worst of all chars at gimping Ness. He lacks the aerial maneuverability to go offstage and get him, so he always has to wait back on the stage. He's still fairly competent at gimping Ness but it is one less option as his disposal. Furthermore, Luigi is much more of a vertical KOer/comboer, so he takes much less advantage of Ness's bad recovery. And as stated before, Ness's approach > Luigi's.

Thoughts?

And B Link, Falcon's dash grabs wreck everyone. It's a really solid approach and Ness isn't unusually susceptible to it.

 

[SheerMadness]

Doesn't Jiggly's Nair make it really hard for Yoshi to approach? And once Yoshi gets a hit in, he really can't do much comboing and he lacks reliable ways to get in his smashes and uair for the kill. On the other hand, Yoshi is a pretty perfect weight for Jiggly's combos. That's my take on Jiggly > Yoshi.

You must not know the matchup very well.

Yoshi's fair, nair, and dash attack set jiggly up perfectly. I'd argue that Yoshi has some of the best combos vs Jiggly in the game.

Fair -> DJC nair -> dash attack -> fair off the edge

Just an example of a 0-death combo on jiggly. Yoshi can combo Jiggly up to 50 insanely easily and after that its pritty **** easy to kill her considering fair will always lead to downb/up air which will kill her starting in the 60s. Upsmash also kills her late 60s and up.

And if you touch her shield with a fair its a guaranteed shield break unless you screw up.

 

[Nintendude]

Well, you are the Yoshi main, and I'm not really a Jiggly player, so I trust what you have to say on the matchup. Do you think it is even or in Yoshi's favor?

 

[SheerMadness]

Probably pritty even.

 

[Nintendude]

Yeah, Sheer and I are playing the matchup right now. It seems very even.

Any thoughts on Ness's potential to break Jiggly's shield?

 

[firo]

I do agree that Pikachu may only be > against Ness.

For Ness v Luigi, I think an argument can be made for Ness having an advantage, but Ness is fairly light and is susceptible to uair and up b combos, which kill Ness and fairly low percentages. Luigi's torando also hurts Ness as well.

Also, Luigi's floatiness make shielded DJC less of a problem for Luigi - he usually gets sent pretty far by then and Ness needs to run a bit to hit him again. It makes it a little easier of Luigi to get out of them. I'd be willing to play some Ness v Luigi matches to figure it out.

In terms of general Ness matchups, I still go by the matchup list I posted earlier. I think the first thing that should be changed is the Ness = Yoshi matchup. I feel that this match is clearly in Ness's favor.

I feel that Ness v Jiggly, Falcon, and DK should at least be even.

Ness, in my opinion, is the easiest character to break shields with consistently. His potential to break Jiggly's shield is just as great, if not greater, than Yoshi's.

 

[Deleted member]

I completely disagree on almost everything u said

 

[unknown522]

fox is broken as ****.

lol pika has advantage on everyone.

Link = huge disadvantage on falcon.

falcon > ness.

 

[MattNF]

If ness really does end up as the 2nd lowest on the list then this topic is dum

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi = Ness to Luigi > Ness
Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus

Debating:

Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon = Ness
Kirby = Jigglypuff to Kirby > Jigglypuff

My opinions:

Pikachu > Ness
Falcon > Ness

If ness really does end up as the 2nd lowest on the list then this topic is dum

Well some of the match-ups are wrong then. But if Pikachu > Ness goes through, Ness should be just under Jigglypuff.

Also, would anyone agree with Kirby > Jigglypuff?

 

[Surri-Sama]

Pikachu >> ness

ness cant approach, edge gaurd, or breath if the pikachu is even ok...

Jiggly > Yoshi

when can i close this thread? O_o

 

[NixxxoN]

Pikachu >> ness

ness cant approach, edge gaurd, or breath if the pikachu is even ok...

Jiggly > Yoshi

when can i close this thread? O_o

Ness can't approach well, but also its difficult for the opponent to approach you if you start djc'ing like crazy.

why you want to close it..., seems like this forum data capacity has reached the top lol

 

[Surri-Sama]

Theres a real quick answer to a DJCing person who is not approaching, use Uair...it'll break anything a foolish player is doing.. especially standing still doing the same attacks over and over

 

[NixxxoN]

I didnt say standing still. If you move around with fast DJC you can put a lot of pressure to anyone. If you hit him once you can do an easy combo with lots of damage if they arent too floaty

 

[Nintendude]

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi = Ness to Luigi > Ness
Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus

Debating:

Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon = Ness
Kirby = Jigglypuff to Kirby > Jigglypuff

Also, would anyone agree with Kirby > Jigglypuff?

Why is Luigi > Ness under some agreement when we've begun arguing it the other way around?

Yoshi = Samus
Jiggly = Yoshi
Falcon = Ness
Kirby = Jiggly

I'm still leaning towards Pika > Ness as well. Of course Ness is bad at approaching Pika. It's freaking Pika. But it's not like Pika shuts down Ness any worse than he shuts down other characters besides Fox/Falcon. If you want to argue Pika >> Ness based on approach then I think Pika >> Luigi as well, but I don't believe that.

 

[Zen Yore]

u mad?

Nevermind. :D

i ****ing lol'd
also pika > ness
Ness sucks at comboing pika while a noob pika can beat a decent ness.

I agree with everything nintendude said except I believe Falcon > Ness

 

[NixxxoN]

Yeah It's pretty obvious that Falcon > Ness.

1) Grab
2) Easy combo to death or to 80-90% + easy edgeguard
3) Repeat

Falcon's speed and better approach hurts ness who struggles to space
Ness can also combo falcon pretty hard but in general is not as easy and effective as falcon's combos + he dies at a very low %

And nobody has TAS DJC skills or anything close lol

 

[DemonicInfluence]

I agree with everything Sheer says about Jiggly vs. Yoshi because I've been subject to getting comboed as he says.... many many times.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

ness can take out falcon pretty easily if he hits him lol, but getting that hit on a smart falcon is not going to work very much, falcon just has the better approach and speed overall.

falcon > ness

 

[Kefit]

If you want to argue Pika >> Ness based on approach then I think Pika >> Luigi as well, but I don't believe that.

Pika >> Ness and Pika >> Luigi, for that reason among others. Pika vs Luigi is more fair though; Pika vs Ness is one of the most unfair matchups in the game.

Another problem with Pika vs Ness is that Ness' only realistic kill option is to catch Pika with a dair while Pika is on a platform, then dair spam into a uair. Ness has no good way to get Pika off the ledge, and even if he did he wouldn't be able to edge guard Pika for crap.

Meanwhile, Pika just has to combo or throw Ness off the stage and he's dead. Kind of like with Pika vs Link. Except Ness doesn't have fantastic projectiles and disjointed swords to wage a spacing war with.

 

[otg]

daaaamn, this thread is full of Ness hate. I knew that his recovery had problems but I didn't realize it held him back this much overall in the metagame.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:

Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus

Debating:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi = Ness to Luigi ? Ness
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon = Ness
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Can we at least get opinions on Yoshi/Samus? =P

Pikachu >> ness

ness cant approach, edge gaurd, or breath if the pikachu is even ok...

Jiggly > Yoshi

when can i close this thread? O_o

I don't see why you're antsy to close the thread. It's not as if I made a mess of things, typed poorly or made a rubbish chart. Granted, originally is was filled with mistakes, because it was based off of previous attempts, but you have to admit that this version has come a long way toward completion and nobody has ever done that. Also, if/when we do get a completed chart, I'd like to implement the results into forming a new tier list, since the "current one" is extremely old. After that though, you can close it if you'd like.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

falcon > ness

 

[Llumys]

I'm surprised Ness is so low.

 

[t3h Icy]

For those that are saying Falcon = Ness, explain why please.

 

[Nintendude]

Some Agreement:

Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus

Debating:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi = Ness to Luigi ? Ness
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon = Ness
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Can we at least get opinions on Yoshi/Samus? =P

Pika >> Ness, based on Pika >> Luigi (which I do believe)
leaning towards Ness > Luigi
Jiggly = Yoshi
fine, Falcon > Ness.

There is absolutely no reason to close this thread. This is the best effort at an accurate matchup chart I've ever seen on SWF, and we are just about done.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

From what I've played, I would say Jiggly > Yoshi, but from what people say here, I've been convinced Jiggly = Yoshi.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think Jiggly has the tiniest advantage like 54-46, but where you draw the line between even and advantage I'm not really sure

also, a lot of the tiny advantage or = matchups are sort of ambiguous as to who wins, but at least most of this chart correctly points out the blatently obvious ones or are sort of close to what is "right"


also i think Fox > Kirby

 

[Surri-Sama]

Well seeing as we use specific examples let me throw some around

Sheers Yoshi blows all my chars out of the water except my Pikachu and my Jiggly, omg hax!

jiggly > Yoshi

(this is much easier then writing 8 pages of bull **** :D)

 

[Nintendude]

To answer yoru question, s2j, if we were to convert this to ratios, I think anything more even than 60-40 would just be even.

 

[Zen Yore]

i herd some ***s saying this would be the new tier list
lolwut