The New Match-up Chart

[Nintendude]

Probably that DK can't do squat to Pika, and Pika can pretty much combo and edgeguard DK from here to kingdom come.

And s2j said from top to mid or lower mid, not low. And apparently it was not just combos that were nerfed, his recovery too.

"Probably" is not a very convincing argument. DK can do plenty.

Ness's recovery may have been nerfed but it already sucked so what's the difference? That's like saying it would make a difference if Falcon's up-B went a little farther. It's negligible.

 

[P D]

i use dk to counterpick pika

 

[Superstar]

I said probably as an interpetation to s2j's argument. I'm not making the argument, he said it as there's not much DK can do. I mean, seriously, if DK can't do his normal gay stuff sans the infinite, Pika outprioritizes him, ***** his recovery, and DK can barely combo Pika while DK himself is a ripe and tasty punching bag, that sounds like DK can't do quat to Pikachu. I have no experience in this matchup, I'm just interpreting what s2j [adding in some common sense stuff] said to answer:

And as for the DK vs. Pika thing, you can say that for any Pika matchup. So what makes DK's so much worse that it's << instead of <?

You can say that for other matchups yes, but other characters can at least combo Pikachu to some extent and all that, what can DK do sans the infinite [or is the infinite a big enough deal to turn EVERYTHING around]? Basically, DK has what other characters have weak against Pika to a worse degree, except range

Top to mid isn't that large a difference in a game with 12 characters, to be honest. The negligible things do add up which is why I mentioned it.

 

[Deleted member]

"Probably" is not a very convincing argument. DK can do plenty.

Ness's recovery may have been nerfed but it already sucked so what's the difference? That's like saying it would make a difference if Falcon's up-B went a little farther. It's negligible.

what a joke, Ness's recovery is good in the Japanese version

 

[asianaussie]

Falcon's recovery going further would make a difference...as would Link's...

DK is a big target for Pika...that's his disadvantage against pretty much everyone. Pika exploits that well. But that's the price paid for superior range.

 

[Nintendude]

The point was that the recovery method is inherently bad, just like how Pikachu's is inherently good. Range has little to do with recovery when you are facing a competent edgeguarder, especially in a game full of death combos.

 

[Superstar]

Falcon's recovery would still be terrible if it went farther. Link's wouldn't. Its a very fast and very painful recovery, the only problem is that it barely gets any distance.

Smoke also said it barely had any lag, that's one of the main reasons his UpB sucks moreso than range. Its not a great recovery even after, but it'd be much better.

 

[Surri-Sama]

"Probably" is not a very convincing argument. DK can do plenty.
.

Lol nice counter argument too!

if DK and pika are = in skill.....DK r teh pwnt

 

[NixxxoN]

Falcon's recovery would still be terrible if it went farther. Link's wouldn't. Its a very fast and very painful recovery, the only problem is that it barely gets any distance.

No, Falcon's is better. Not only does an attack but also you can use the up+b again if you connect the first one, so if connecting several up+b's, falcon's recovery has a lot of range.

 

[Superstar]

Not only does an attack

Link's does an attack too, and a much better one at that.

but also you can use the up+b again if you connect the first one, so if connecting several up+b's, falcon's recovery has a lot of range.

That almost never happens except against bad people or once in a blue moon.

Falcon's recovery is better than Link's, but if Link had a higher second jump and a higher UpB his would be better than Falcon, the reason Link's is bad is not because of its speed, the attack, or the lag time [that is to some extent], its because the whole process is a tiny hop.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated Chart:

Kirby >> Yoshi to Kirby > Yoshi
Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Yoshi > Jigglypuff to Yoshi = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Ness to Kirby > Ness
Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Some Agreement:

Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Pikachu >> DK to Pikachu > DK

Debating:

Ness = DK to Ness ? DK
Ness = Samus to Ness ? Samus
Ness = Yoshi to Ness ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness

The chart now is interesting. Only Fox and Pikachu have >> match-ups, and they're all against the bottom half of the characters. The bottom two characters are also both the ones with a large disadvantage to both Pikachu and Fox. Mario has dropped two ranks since the last chart. Kirby and Falcon have near identical match-ups, only having a difference between each other. The largest difference among ranks is actually between Pikachu and Fox, with Yoshi and the top five taking second. Yoshi is all alone in the middle of good and bad characters.

Keep it up. =)

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

mario > jigglypuff

 

[NixxxoN]

i would say Ness < DK

DK can kill Ness way more early and easily

 

[P D]

i would say Ness < DK
[/QUOTE]

 

[Daedatheus]

DK can kill Ness way more early and easily

I probably said it already but DK grabs Ness out of DJCs more easily than any other character, which is pretty notable.

 

[Zen Yore]

mario > jigglypuff

i love how every replies by boom in this thread doesnt include any explanations

and definitely DK > Ness
hes slow and Ness is too fast but still DK has better spacing

 

[Superstar]

Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness

**** no. But fine. There are always gonna be some eh matchups due to disagreements. Me saying why would be repeating my arguments.

I wouldn't argue against Ness < DK. Those grabs are evil.

 

[MattNF]

mario > jigglypuff
luigi > ness
yoshi = jigglypuff
jigglypuff = ness or jigglypuff > ness
cant decide on that one

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Jigglypuff > Ness

Ness just doesn't have combos in that match, where as jigglypuff can do almost anything to ness. Plus, jigglypuff's Nair.

 

[Skrlx]

knocking a djc spamming ness out with jiggly's sex kick is almost ORGASMIC.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I just moderatley tested the Ness vs Yoshi matchup vs Thalliumfan's ness.

We had even matches. Yoshi can DJCC into a down b vs Ness's up tilt at low to mid percentages. Matchup is even it seems

ness = Yoshi

 

[Ninja Kirby Nick!]

Kirby > Jigglypuff

Why is it that Jigglypuff and Yoshi is all we're talking about here O.o...

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I'd say Jigglypuff > Ness. I'd consider it Puff's best matchup (at least it's my best matchup). As for the shield breaking factor... why is puff shielding in the first place? I'd rather get combo'd by Ness than shield broken.

Also, I think Puff > Yoshi, but we already discussed it and determined it to be even, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Nintendude]

Jiggly > Ness

I still think Mario vs. Jiggs isn't enough in Mario's favor to make it a >.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

Jigglypuff = Ness to Jigglypuff > Ness

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> DK to Pikachu > DK
DK = Ness to DK > Ness

Debating:

Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Ness = Samus to Ness ? Samus
Ness = Yoshi to Ness ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness

DJCers are hard to come to a consensus with. =P

 

[P D]

falcon >> ness

falcon is perfect for comboing off the stage and gimping ness
and these

Agreement:

Jigglypuff = Ness to Jigglypuff > Ness

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> DK to Pikachu > DK
DK = Ness to DK > Ness

 

[Superstar]

falcon >> ness

...NO!

If ANYTHING its just a single >, its not that bad. Heck, Jiggs is harder for Ness to beat than Falcon.

Falcon is perfect for comboing off the stage and gimping Ness, but then, it goes the other way around. If anything, its just a little harder for Ness to start something than Falcon.

Lol Icy, most are either Ness fanboys or Ness haters. Almost no one plays Ness except utilt noobs, so its hard to get anything on him. And Yoshi, he's rarely used and hard to use to where most people don't know anything about him.

DK vs Ness is advantage DK, but to what degree I don't know.

 

[P D]

...NO!

If ANYTHING its just a single >, its not that bad. Heck, Jiggs is harder for Ness to beat than Falcon.

Falcon is perfect for comboing off the stage and gimping Ness, but then, it goes the other way around. If anything, its just a little harder for Ness to start something than Falcon.

Lol Icy, most are either Ness fanboys are Ness rs. Almost no one plays Ness except utilt noobs, so its hard to get anything on him. And Yoshi, he's rarely used and hard to use to where most people don't know anything about him.

DK vs Ness is advantage Ness, but to what degree I don't know.

lol we got a ness fanboy

and theres no way ness has advantage to dk

also when ness is off the stage... he doesnt come back

 

[Superstar]

LOL, that was a slip of the text. I meant DK, I'll edit that, hahahahaha.

I will admit I'm pro Ness. When you main the kid you have to be. But for that? No, its advantage DK, I even said it earlier in the thread.

To say Falcon is >> Ness, and not >, you have to be insanely on the other side. That's even worse than saying Ness beats DK by a little bit, a lot worse. At least that's imaginable so long as someone doesn't know about DK's grab range, to assume Falcon >> Ness is to think Ness can't do anything to Falcon at all.

EDIT: And Ness does come back if he's not sent too far off the stage and it isn't vs Pikachu. If he has to resort to UpB...he won't come back. And in that matchup, in that same situation, Falcon is even LESS likely to come back than Ness [No DownB Edgegrab]. In most situations neither should return.

The Ness vs Falcon matchup is decided on who can get the first good hit, Falcon is more likely here.

EDIT2: Something most should know about the vs Ness matchup, he has a very good edgeguard. While he won't make it back, most characters won't make it back either. That doesn't matter at all for Ness matchups unless its say Kirby or Pikachu, and to some extent Jigglypuff, Mario, Fox [fakeout], and Yoshi. Mario is still easy to edgeguard depending on just how much he can make the stage by.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

mario easy to edgeguard? wat

 

[t3h Icy]

Some players should go up against Firo's Ness and Sheermadness' Yoshi and see what they think. They're pretty beastly with them.

 

[Superstar]

mario easy to edgeguard? wat

I said depending. If its just barely, timing a Down Smash will nail him pretty hard. If he recovers from above and not TOO far away, Mario is going to make it back.

If he gets ANY chance for fireballs in the recovery, Mario is going to make it back. I included him in the to some extent because he'll make it back most of the time.

If I remember, dair trades hits with Mario's UpB. But DSmash is safer in situations where you can do that.

Mario vs Ness is still Mario > Ness or Mario >> Ness, just saying.

 

[P D]

Some players should go up against Firo's Ness and Sheermadness' Yoshi and see what they think. They're pretty beastly with them.

alllllllready have

LOL, that was a slip of the text. I meant DK, I'll edit that, hahahahaha.

I will admit I'm pro Ness. When you main the kid you have to be. But for that? No, its advantage DK, I even said it earlier in the thread.

To say Falcon is >> Ness, and not >, you have to be insanely on the other side. That's even worse than saying Ness beats DK by a little bit, a lot worse. At least that's imaginable so long as someone doesn't know about DK's grab range, to assume Falcon >> Ness is to think Ness can't do anything to Falcon at all.

EDIT: And Ness does come back if he's not sent too far off the stage and it isn't vs Pikachu. If he has to resort to UpB...he won't come back. And in that matchup, in that same situation, Falcon is even LESS likely to come back than Ness [No DownB Edgegrab]. In most situations neither should return.

The Ness vs Falcon matchup is decided on who can get the first good hit, Falcon is more likely here.

EDIT2: Something most should know about the vs Ness matchup, he has a very good edgeguard. While he won't make it back, most characters won't make it back either. That doesn't matter at all for Ness matchups unless its say Kirby or Pikachu, and to some extent Jigglypuff, Mario, Fox [fakeout], and Yoshi. Mario is still easy to edgeguard depending on just how much he can make the stage by.

1. ness combos are lawl easy to di out of

2. falcon has a surprisingly good recovery and so many mindgames can be inplanted with it

3. >>> cant do anything against not >>

4. ness is good at edge gaurding link. he is very slow in the air and unless your just camping at the edge waiting for them to recover his edge gaurd sucks. even when that happens youll probably get mindgamed and then youll be the one recoverying

 

[Superstar]

1) I hear you use a Gamecube controller and rig it for more DI, could that be why? At least on console, it isn't THAT easy to DI out of Ness' combos. You could reduce them, but to make them not happen, especially when you're Falcon? Wat? Falcon is the easiest to get AT LEAST 70% out of. The main problem with Ness is that he won't be able to kill you with the combo, he can't 0-death unless he's at the edge. He'll need to hit you again to set up an edgeguard while Falcon can kill him, and most everyone, through a combo.

2) Lol no. Its terrible.

3) There is no >>> in this chart, the highest it can go is >> which means you might as well can't do anything. Like Pikachu vs Ness is Pikachu >> Ness. By saying >> That means Ness must never win unless there's a huge skill difference, or close enough to that.

4) I know you're way too biased with that. Its not a weak edgeguard if you don't jump out, for example Link edgeguards very well when not even jumping off the edge, and Falcon doesn't even NEED to get off the edge to edgeguard well [if anything, just a dair near the edge, and Ness can do that too]. Mario can get a lot done just DSmashing at the edge.

By that, I meant its not horrible. Very likely if Ness can't make it back, neither can the other character for that matter. This includes Falcon. So in this matchup, it is a really dumb argument.

I think you're forgetting this is Smash 64, most characters have terrible recoveries. Dsmash at the edge with Mario takes out half the cast.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I see lots of fail here, koros testing with thal, i think you's need to figure out a better system xD

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I'll play ness against someone

 

[P D]

1) I hear you use a Gamecube controller and rig it for more DI, could that be why? At least on console, it isn't THAT easy to DI out of Ness' combos. You could reduce them, but to make them not happen, especially when you're Falcon? Wat? Falcon is the easiest to get AT LEAST 70% out of. The main problem with Ness is that he won't be able to kill you with the combo, he can't 0-death unless he's at the edge. He'll need to hit you again to set up an edgeguard while Falcon can kill him, and most everyone, through a combo.

2) Lol no. Its terrible.

3) There is no >>> in this chart, the highest it can go is >> which means you might as well can't do anything. Like Pikachu vs Ness is Pikachu >> Ness. By saying >> That means Ness must never win unless there's a huge skill difference, or close enough to that.

4) I know you're way too biased with that. Its not a weak edgeguard if you don't jump out, for example Link edgeguards very well when not even jumping off the edge, and Falcon doesn't even NEED to get off the edge to edgeguard well [if anything, just a dair near the edge, and Ness can do that too]. Mario can get a lot done just DSmashing at the edge.

By that, I meant its not horrible. Very likely if Ness can't make it back, neither can the other character for that matter. This includes Falcon. So in this matchup, it is a really dumb argument.

I think you're forgetting this is Smash 64, most characters have terrible recoveries. Dsmash at the edge with Mario takes out half the cast.

a few points:
ness i think has the slowest horizontal air movement

falcons recovery has the most variables to avoid ness besides pika

there isnt >>> becasue there arent any characters that overpower another character in this game that much

ness's combos are easily screwed up by platforms, platforms are on both hyrule and dream land

ness is fairly slow, light, surprisingly easy to combo, and has horrible reach not to mention very bad dash length

yes falcon is easy to combo but after he gets 100% you have 2 options throw or dair to uair. but youll probably lose a life trying to get those set ups becasue of falcons speed and reach over ness

whens the last time youve played a high level game on console?

 

[Superstar]

If anyone want to hear my input on the matchups I'm pretty sure on, its...

Ness < Jigglypuff
Ness < DK
Ness = Falcon or Ness < Falcon
Ness = Link or Ness > Link [moreso the later]
Ness < Mario or Ness << Mario
Ness < Pikachu or Ness << Pikachu [moreso latter]
Ness < Fox
Mario > Link
Mario = Pikachu or Mario < Pikachu [later is more likely]
Mario = Fox or Mario < Fox [moreso the later]
Link < Pikachu or Link << Pikachu [more likely the latter]
Link = Jiggs [more or less, to me could swing either but barely, Jiggs problem is range and approach and Link takes care of that easily, and Link not even comboing does a good bit of damage, Fair is 20% if I recall, some others are 17% and such]
Link > Samus
Link = Falcon or Link < Falcon
Link < Fox or Link << Fox
Link = DK or Link < DK [depends on how well Link can deal with DK's range, if DK can easily get past its a game over for Link]

Just all my input, I didn't even look at the matchup chart.

EDIT: Will edit to PD

ness i think has the slowest horizontal air movement

General weakness, I agree

falcons recovery has the most variables to avoid ness besides pika

Falcon's recovery is a blimp with landing lag. Recovering low means Falcon will eat a dsmash or a dair. Recovering high means Falcon will get grabbed and thrown off [or bair, faired, or uair->combo depending on where he lands]. You have to be right next to the stage to be able to try tricking someone with Falcon's recovery. Falcon has a better shot than Ness if he can make it with the second jump, but if he has to UpB, he should never make it back.

Fox, Mario, even Kirby, EVEN YOSHI, have a better chance than Falcon.

there isnt >>> becasue there arent any characters that overpower another character in this game that much

There isn't >>> because it'd add too many variables. >> Means incredible overwhelm. > means disadvantage, = doesn't exactly mean = but it means close enough.

ness's combos are easily screwed up by platforms, platforms are on both hyrule and dream land

What? Platforms EXTEND Ness's combos. You get more output if you can uair from platform to platform. If you use combos just from muscle memory it'll screw up the combos, but if you can adjust you get much more damage output and a harder to DI combo.

Sometimes they'll screw with your combo, but most of the time they help a lot.

ness is fairly slow, light, surprisingly easy to combo, and has horrible reach not to mention very bad dash length

General weakness. Why I still think any advantage is Falcon's, just not >>.

yes falcon is easy to combo but after he gets 100% you have 2 options throw or dair to uair. but youll probably lose a life trying to get those set ups becasue of falcons speed and reach over ness

You also get bair, and attempts at fakeouts [nowhere near as good as Falcon's options but options nonetheless]. DJC uair too depending on what Falcon tries to do.

whens the last time youve played a high level game on console?

I could say the same to you. But you can't assume broken DI for this stuff.

 

[P D]

i could settle for something inbetween > and >>

 

[Superstar]

Falcon > Ness I'm actually fine with. Its what it is right now.

Looking at how I rate him, despite maining him I can't be a Ness fanboy since I says he's < almost everything. Just give the kid some credit, he can do more stuff than people think, just...not nearly as much as some others. XD

Link/Ness dual main, actually, I just put Link.