The New Match-up Chart

[Battlecow]

Really no need for me to comment again

but I'm gonna

get ***** sheer OMG get ****ING DESTROYED

 

[Izuhu]

The difficulty in combos does not come from z cancels. Look at any of Ricky/Isai/Prince/etc's combos. You think you'd automatically be able to do those if z cancels were automatic? I doubt it.

Like I said it would make it harder even if its in the slightest. I know some people who play melee and found z-cancelling hard. Why? because it takes skill and practice to do it. Its not something you can do immediately if your new to the game.

When I use to practice in training mode one of the things that ****ed me over was missing a z-cancel under pressure trying to get a unique combo down.

Some things can come down to opinions. You might prefer tech skill over everything else - that's an opinion and if you really think that then I will say "fine". But we are also talking about things that aren't opinion - like "does z canceling reduce the number of competitive players?"

That's theoretical and you can't make a theoretical statement with a hypothesis and state **** is fact. You can make a possibility its fact, but just don't state something is fact.
Like I said in my previous post the real issue was the "speed of the game" that kept people from playing melee not "z-cancelling".

Which was the same reason why casuals didn't like or play MvC2 because the gameplay was way too fast and too much **** was going on screen. Disregarding the real fact the game was broken

When I tried teach my older brother how to play melee he was the like "DA ****, how people play this fast ****" He even told me there was too much movement on screen for him to keep up. But 64 has that perfect gameplay speed,but the reason we don't have as much people as melee does is because of the one main reason


""New people don't know that there is online play""


How many people came in this forum saying "WAIT.....there's online play!?! o_O" when we told them to play online to get good. Yobo was one of them and there was a couple of others.


Other reasons that we might not have as many people are because of these

1) People know that the game is old so they assume the game is dead

2) There aren't that many crowd drawing videos in 64 that the melee scene has

If there was possibility that we can get online 64 broadcasted on stream at Apex, I guarantee I'll community would rapidly increase just because the mass majority just doesn't know online play exist. Too bad the TO already said that its not gonna happen, so we can't get our hopes up for that.

Our only hope for our community to grow competitively is for us to leech on to a bigger community to show our stuff.

 

[clubbadubba]

lol this thread is crazy. Here is what I'm thinking about while reading this:

GF of Apex, Boom pulls off some crazy fox on ness combo to beat isai in game 7. Everyone goes crazy. But one voice can be heard above all of them, shouting
"OH DAYYYYUUUUUUMMMMN, DAT ZCANCEL!!!!!!!!!!!" lulz

But seriously, let me throw something out there for the z-cancel lovers. At this point, it has boiled down to your OPINION being that more tech skill is better because you enjoy it and like the fact that a tech skill barrier is created, even if it may (or may not, I'll agree that is a theory, but one with a fairly strong backing of logic and based on my personal experience I know > 5 people who would have been willing to get better if it weren't for z-canceling) decrease the number of people who attempt to play competitively. That's all well and good, and I respect that, BUT...

If I were to make a suggestion that in order to perform a dash attack you had to rapid tap A three times would you be pro that? Or if in order to smash attack you had to move the stick in a circle quickly, would you support that idea? I highly doubt that any of you would fight for these options of additional tech skill without adding any depth to the game. However, the OPINION that you claim drives you to support z-canceling would be in support of adding more additional unnecessary tech skill. Think about that, and ask yourself how you feel about the idea about making certain inputs more difficult than they currently are without any motivating factor other than increasing the tech skill barrier. Because the FACT is that is what zcanceling is.

If you say yes, let's make it as technical as possible, then okay I guess that really is your OPINION and that's cool (even though it's WRONG

Spoiler

jkjkjkjkjkjkjkjkjkjkjk

). However, if you say no, you wouldn't like to make the current moves harder than they currently are, then it would seem to me that your OPINION may not be what you have been claiming. I would suggest that it is the fact that you have always played with zcanceling and are used to and attached to it that drives you to support it, not a love for increasing tech skill unnecessarily.


Oh and just for sheer, I'M TALKING ABOUT AUTO-CANCELING, NOT JUST REMOVING Z-CANCELING.

 

[Olikus]

I think this discussion is done now. If sheer still disagrees after reading all this posts, just let him live safe and comfortable with his mindset. No need to drag this out over 200 pages.

 

[ballin4life]

Like I said it would make it harder even if its in the slightest. I know some people who play melee and found z-cancelling hard. Why? because it takes skill and practice to do it. Its not something you can do immediately if your new to the game.

Yes that's what I've been saying. But would the game be forever ruined if everyone could z cancel their first time playing (like if it were automatic)? I don't think so.

When I use to practice in training mode one of the things that ****ed me over was missing a z-cancel under pressure trying to get a unique combo down.

And the fact that you z canceled successfully is what makes training mode combos fun? I doubt it. Z canceling in training mode combos is just a chore. It doesn't add anything. Even if you love tech skill in training mode combos I doubt you're thinking "wow what an epic awesome z cancel" when you watch a training mode combo.

That's theoretical and you can't make a theoretical statement with a hypothesis and state **** is fact. You can make a possibility its fact, but just don't state something is fact.

Yes, it is a theoretical statement. But it can be backed up with evidence.

I think this discussion is done now. If sheer still disagrees after reading all this posts, just let him live safe and comfortable with his mindset. No need to drag this out over 200 pages.

Blasphemy to the smash 64 forums!

 

[The Star King]

for some strange reason, ballin, a memory came to me all of a sudden... a vague recollection of you, just a few pages back, saying something incredibly funny... something about you not being argumentative?

 

[ballin4life]

for some strange reason, ballin, a memory came to me all of a sudden... a vague recollection of you, just a few pages back, saying something incredibly funny... something about you not being argumentative?

You're totally wrong about this. I'm not argumentative AT ALL.

 

[Yobolight]

If Z-canceling were not in the game and aerials auto canceled, then anyone could pick up this game and instantly be good by spamming aerial combos. Fox would go from the pro character to the noob character instantaneously.

 

[clubbadubba]

If Z-canceling were not in the game and aerials auto canceled, then anyone could pick up this game and instantly be good by spamming aerial combos. Fox would go from the pro character to the noob character instantaneously.

Sarcasm? There are tons of players that can z-cancel but are not good, as has been said multiple times itt I believe.

 

[asianaussie]

kirby would still be the noob character

 

[Izuhu]

Ballin pls....

@clubba
Why is that when people see a post that doesn't arguably agree with theirs they assume its sarcasm?

Like Seriously? C'mon.


Anyways I pretty much done with this auto l/z-cancelling vs manual l/z-canceling argument

its dumb.

 

[ballin4life]

@clubba
Why is that when people see a post that doesn't arguably agree with theirs they assume its sarcasm?

It's not just a post he disagreed with. It's a post that is blatantly wrong (if serious).

 

[Izuhu]

It's not just a post he disagreed with. It's a post that is blatantly wrong (if serious).

I'm not talking about that statement in particular, but in general which I should of cleared up.

My fault on my end with the vague post. My apologies sir ballin.

 

[clubbadubba]

Yea what ballin said, statement is factually false so I thought he might actually be joking. Legitimately asking him if its sarcasm.

But yea I get what you're saying. I hate when people are having a debate and someone says "not sure if trolling." Its the biggest cop out ever and doesn't make people's cases any better.

 

[Fish641]

this thread is classic Smash Forums

 

[The Star King]

this thread is classic Smash Forums

this post is classic Fish641

seriously though I used to like you before you started posting just to rag on the boards. It's not like you doing that is much better. It's not like you're contributing anything of any worth with the way you post now, so you're just as bad if not worse. I don't get people who post just to complain... if you don't like the boards and have nothing to contribute then GTFO

 

[SheerMadness]

Now, we don't have that data to say 100% for sure whether that statement is true or false

Which means that your statement is a theory, not a fact.

Again, a theory is an untested idea or opinion.

Ballin's theory about the effect z-canceling has on the competitive smash community is exactly that, a theory.

 

[Yobolight]

A theory stands until disproved.

 

[ballin4life]

Which means that your statement is a theory, not a fact.

Again, a theory is an untested idea or opinion.

Ballin's theory about the effect z-canceling has on the competitive smash community is exactly that, a theory.

It is a theory. But a theory is not an opinion.

No one seems to be challenging any of the evidence that people have provided in support of that theory btw.

It's impossible to know what would have happened in an alternate universe where smash64 had automatic z cancels, but I think evidence and reasoning point strongly towards a larger competitive community.

 

[t3h Icy]

IMO, Pikachu is a great character to defeat Link with.

 

[SheerMadness]

I'm glad we both agree that it's a theory, not a fact.

BTW dictionary.com seems to think your theory is an untested opinion.

1. Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion.

 

[ballin4life]

A theory is either true or false. An opinion is neither true nor false.

And in this instance the evidence strongly points toward the theory being true. It isn't a stretch at all to call it a fact.

 

[SheerMadness]

You're just arguing against established definitions of words at this point.

A theory has and never will be fact.

I'm just gonna stop here. No point in forging forward. Good discussion guys.

 

[ballin4life]

You're just arguing against established definitions of words at this point.

A theory has and never will be fact.

I'm just gonna stop here. No point in forging forward. Good discussion guys.

You're the one who didn't grab any of the 5 definitions of theory on dictionary.com and instead tried to cherry pick something from the notes at the bottom.

Speaking of which, let's examine definition number 3 of "Fact" on dictionary.com:

a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

hmmm. We have multiple people reporting experiences and observations supporting our theory.


I have to ask the obligatory "do you consider gravity a fact?" question as well.


I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt...

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

this discussion really happened..? wow

notes to make:

purely auto cancelling would make the game and the experience better

sheer is ******** still

ballin for president

The only depth I see to z/L cancelling is changing your timing to cancel your aerial after hitting a shield.

 

[SheerMadness]

It's sad that so many people on here resort to calling people wrong/dumb/stupid/******** if they disagree with them.

Way to be mature brochachos.

Props to ballin for doing it in a mature fashion. Unlike a lot of you.

 

[ballin4life]

It's sad that so many people on here resort to calling people wrong/dumb/stupid/******** if they disagree with them.

Way to be mature brochachos.

Props to ballin for doing it in a mature fashion. Unlike a lot of you.

Thanks. I did try to go back and edit out all the **** talk from my posts

 

[Izuhu]

lol this thread <3

 

[asianaussie]

when something degenerates into dictionary definition squabbles, it's gone too far

and anyone who is trying to make a forum meta comment about this thread is a dirk

 

[clubbadubba]

On topic, I think falcon dittos is about 50:50, maybe 55:45. Thoughts?

 

[Yobolight]

On topic, I think falcon dittos is about 50:50, maybe 55:45. Thoughts?

80:20 on DL

 

[Fish641]

this post is classic Fish641

seriously though I used to like you before you started posting just to rag on the boards. It's not like you doing that is much better. It's not like you're contributing anything of any worth with the way you post now, so you're just as bad if not worse. I don't get people who post just to complain... if you don't like the boards and have nothing to contribute then GTFO

It is classic me

I could either "contribute" by restating the obvious fact about z-canceling that practically everyone agrees on (like most people choose to do), I could abstain from the conversation (like I normally do), or I could remind you that this is another repetition of the same pattern. At least this way there's the hope that eventually the board might lower the amount of arguments that seem like they're being carried out by kids that still regularly have religious debates.

I <3 SWF

 

[clubbadubba]

I always win religious debates. My opponent just never admit it

 

[Battlecow]

It is classic me

I could either "contribute" by restating the obvious fact about z-canceling that practically everyone agrees on (like most people choose to do), I could abstain from the conversation (like I normally do), or I could remind you that this is another repetition of the same pattern. At least this way there's the hope that eventually the board might lower the amount of arguments that seem like they're being carried out by kids that still regularly have religious debates.

I <3 SWF

Bro how did you get so smart I wish I could be just like you

man it's so cool to meta-snipe, negativity makes all the ladies wet.

 

[fMaster]

Hi, I was wondering what data you used to rank the individual match-ups (besides user input)

 

[The Star King]

Nothing. There is not enough recorded data for this game to really do that

 

[fMaster]

there was no match-up or tournament game history used???

 

[asianaussie]

at this moment in time, we still dont have even one tenth of what would constitute an acceptable amount of data for proper calculation of character rankings, and this chart was made a long time ago, before apex etc

 

[Battlecow]

there was no match-up or tournament game history used???

Nope.

It all depends on player vs player, and we really have no way of determining relative player skill at the moment. Plus ridiculous tiny sample sizes. Theorycraft is the only way.