The New Match-up Chart

[prisonchild]

automatic L/Z cancelling would reduce the barrier between casual and competitive players, making the competitive scene more accessible, imo. i'm not saying it's the right 'o', but it's my 'o'.

 

[KnitePhox]

removing z/lcanceling would benefit 64 and melee, yeah it would reduce punishment in that respect, so what? like koro said, press 1 button once, wow what a game changer removing it. i'd rather have more people to play against/with if removal would do such a thing as keep noobs playing vs instant quit

 

[Battlecow]

If you don't like l-canceling you're in luck, Nintendo made a smash game just for you. Go play it. It's really that simple.

OK, I've been thinking about your posts all day and randomly cracking smiles, but I think I'll enlighten you now

Hold on to your hat, this is gonna surprise the **** out of you

Making z-canceling automatic would not make 64 exactly like brawl

it would make it exactly like

wait for it

64

because it would be the exact same ****ing game, we'd just be pressing one less button. No depth would be lost. Combos would not be different (brawl, by the way, does not need z-canceling because it has auto z-canceling. how the f would there be more combos if you had to press a button to do what's already done automatically?)

I feel dumb for having to type all that out

it's really really obvious

 

[asianaussie]

...wait

did people actually think anyone was for removing z-cancelling but not removing the landing lag?

remove both z-cancelling AND the landing lag animations when you don't z-cancel and boom presto you have the same ****ing game as you had before, but without the needless button press

also, i admit z-cancelling would make brawl a little deeper (iirc autocancels use a specific timing that usually involves using the move as you SH or start descending, which means you can't feign an empty hop into a sexkick or w/e and get the cancel) but that won't come close to 'fixing' the rest of what the game has

Bro do you even SF4 ?

You can cancel lag its called EX Focus Attack Cancelling you just need meter to do it and it involves using "2" buttons simultaneously. And appealing a casual crowd is not what we're trying to accomplish because there is already a big enough casual crowd our intentions are making a bigger competitive crowd by drawing people from the casual crowd.

People are gonna play the game causally regardless because not everyone is competitive.

FADC or w/e is a valid point since it does most of what z-cancelling does (makes unsafe things safer, enables combo extension etc), but you do not always want to FA cancel things whereas you ALWAYS WANT TO Z-CANCEL

honestly, the idea of a landing lag animation is the problem

and there is no reason you want to make any potential audience smaller, especially for something like unnecessary techskill

 

[Izuhu]

@aa You don't always have to Z-Cancel EVERY aerial to beat someone in 64. When I started playing 64 I was beating people who knew how to z-cancel when I didn't, and that was because I had my priority more on reads to beat my opponent.

@BCow
Really...? Like he said the depth it adds is skill barrier because people just can't automatically be consistent with advance techniques like l-cancelling when they're just introduced to the game unless they're talented, but even so it takes practice.....and you guys want that lost 50% of the population to increase the competitive scene then they got to start doing competitive **** like practicing if they wanna get better(like everyone else who got good). I'm not saying practice alone and **** for hours. YOU CAN HAVE FUN and PRACTICE. I'm pretty sure Sheer is aware that Brawl has auto l-cancelling, and like I said in my previous post, adding auto-l-cancelling will just make combos in general lose its wow factor because the whole concept of combo-ing would become easy. What makes SF combos so cool is that it takes actual skill to do all those inputs with the right timing and not **** up. Since you guys primary intentions is get that 50% lost due to manual l cancelling why not make every ****ing technical mechanic auto. Everything from auto-ground/wall teching to auto-power-shielding you name it. HEY!! you'll be pressing one less button and you'll have the whole freaking population of players playing a watered game competitive casual game.

That's how SFxTekken ****ed up, the game was a aimed more for casuals which was one of the main reasons why it got so much hate. On top of that it had like this easy command option where it takes one button to do a hadoken or a charge attack. "There you go" having less buttons always doesn't mean its better nor does having a **** load of more buttons like ABAA for example. Its only one button in Melee and 64 and that one button balances out the game for competitive and casual.

The real primary issue is the speed of melee that kept people from playing and migrating to brawl. Auto z-cancelling might work better in 64 and will most likely attract more players due to its perfect speed as to melee's wtf crack speed, but I still prefer l-cancelling being there, but thats my opinion. Even if auto- l/z cancelling was in melee it wouldn't attract that significant amount of people to make the scene bigger because the lightning fast gameplay will still persist.

 

[ballin4life]

Frack, I had my mind made up on the pro-z/l canceling side and now Ballin caused me to reconsider.

Don't worry Yobo - you're just seeing the light. aa is a convert as well.

I liked Z/L-Canceling because it allowed me to open up a technical gap on my friends so that I could 5-stock them and they'd be like WTF.

This is a perfect example of both why Z canceling is bad and why many people like it. People like how they are suddenly better than all their friends because they know how to Z cancel. But you already see how it drives a wedge between the casual players and the competitive players.

anyone who actually thinks z-cancelling adds depth is either trolling or just very stubborn (and i think this might be the only issue on which sk, ballin, bcow and i all agree on without reservation)

Haha true dat. At the least it's one of the few things we all agree on that other people disagree on.

L/Z-canceling enables faster game play and more/longer combos. How is that not depth? Please explain that to me.

You have this backwards. No Z canceling would enable faster game play and more/longer combos. Because you'd never mess up a Z cancel in the middle of a combo. You wouldn't even have to worry about it.

There are plenty of people in this world that still play 64/melee that either can't or don't know how to cancel. They're stuck wallowing around in shallower game play and thus have less options. I play people like this all the time online.

Yes and that's terrible. Those people could be members of our community. But they aren't - and they haven't even been playing the same game as us for all these years.

@BCow
Really...? Like he said the depth it adds is skill barrier because people just can't automatically be consistent with advance techniques like l-cancelling when they're just introduced to the game unless they're talented, but even so it takes practice.....and you guys want that lost 50% of the population to increase the competitive scene then they got to start doing competitive **** like practicing if they wanna get better(like everyone who got good). I'm not saying practice alone and **** for hours. YOU CAN HAVE FUN and PRACTICE. I'm pretty sure Sheer is aware that Brawl has auto l-cancelling, and like I said in my previous post, adding auto-l-cancelling will just make combos in general lose its wow factor because the whole concept of combo-ing would become easy. What makes SF combos so cool is that it takes actual skill to do all those inputs with the right timing and not **** up. Since you guys primary intentions is get that 50% lost due to manual l cancelling why not make every ****ing technical mechanic auto. Everything from auto-ground/wall teching to auto-power-shielding you name it. HEY!! you'll be pressing one less button and you'll have the whole freaking population of players playing a watered game competitive casual game. That's how SFxTekken ****ed up, the game was a aimed more for casuals which was one of the main reasons why it got so much hate. On top of that it had like this easy command option where it takes one button to do a hadoken or a charge attack. "There you go" having less buttons always doesn't mean its better nor does having a **** load of more buttons like ABAA for example. Its only one button in Melee and 64 and that one button balances out the game for competitive and casual.

Dude. Paragraphs are your friend.

 

[kys]

@aa You don't always have to Z-Cancel EVERY aerial to beat someone in 64. When I started playing 64 I was beating people who knew how to z-cancel when I didn't, and that was because I had my priority more on reads to beat my opponent.

@BCow
Really...? Like he said the depth it adds is skill barrier because people just can't automatically be consistent with advance techniques like l-cancelling when they're just introduced to the game unless they're talented, but even so it takes practice.....and you guys want that lost 50% of the population to increase the competitive scene then they got to start doing competitive **** like practicing if they wanna get better(like everyone else who got good). I'm not saying practice alone and **** for hours. YOU CAN HAVE FUN and PRACTICE. I'm pretty sure Sheer is aware that Brawl has auto l-cancelling, and like I said in my previous post, adding auto-l-cancelling will just make combos in general lose its wow factor because the whole concept of combo-ing would become easy. What makes SF combos so cool is that it takes actual skill to do all those inputs with the right timing and not **** up. Since you guys primary intentions is get that 50% lost due to manual l cancelling why not make every ****ing technical mechanic auto. Everything from auto-ground/wall teching to auto-power-shielding you name it. HEY!! you'll be pressing one less button and you'll have the whole freaking population of players playing a watered game competitive casual game.

That's how SFxTekken ****ed up, the game was a aimed more for casuals which was one of the main reasons why it got so much hate. On top of that it had like this easy command option where it takes one button to do a hadoken or a charge attack. "There you go" having less buttons always doesn't mean its better nor does having a **** load of more buttons like ABAA for example. Its only one button in Melee and 64 and that one button balances out the game for competitive and casual.

The real primary issue is the speed of melee that kept people from playing and migrating to brawl. Auto z-cancelling might work better in 64 and will most likely attract more players due to its perfect speed as to melee's wtf crack speed, but I still prefer l-cancelling being there, but thats my opinion. Even if auto- l/z cancelling was in melee it wouldn't attract that significant amount of people to make the scene bigger because the lightning fast gameplay will still persist.

No one's saying anything about the amount of z-canceling you need to do to beat someone. What you're saying is completely missing the point and irrelevant.

Z-canceling is ALWAYS the OPTIMAL strategy. That's the issue. I don't know how else to say it.

You're going down the slippery slope, and you're doing it in a way that is not consistent. Auto ground/wall teching and auto power shielding are not always the best options. It's good for the player to be able to choose, so you need inputs. Techs can go in place, left, or right, and sometimes you might not want to tech. Z-canceling is ALWAYS the BEST option.

You're also ignoring the role other players have; they're the ones that force you into those situations of teching/power shielding.

There's no way eliminating z-canceling eliminates the wow factors in combos. Are you serious? Do you really say, "man I really appreciated the z-cancel in that uair uair uair z-cancel falcon punch combo!"? C'mon.

But anyways, I digress. It's not really about the amount of button inputs. I'll say it a third time. The problem is that it is ALWAYS the OPTIMAL strategy.

 

[Izuhu]

Dude. Paragraphs are your friend.

Dude. You like quoted my quote when I was still editing.


@kys I'm on your page with the optimal strategy point you made. Thanks for making that clear, but as for the combo statement, obviously someone isn't gonna say, "man I really appreciated the z-cancel in that uair uair uair z-cancel falcon punch combo!" in that type of context. Your missing the point on what I'm trying say.

I'm saying that l-cancelling gives some sort of difficulty to a combo that is considered to be good. Why would anyone wanna play a game with professional combos that are ridiculously easy to do with no sort of mechanic that can actually mess up your combo if your not consistent with it. I wanna actually do a good combo and feel good about it and not have that feeling that everybody else can do it without effort. Because then I'll just end up dropping the game all together. I like games that takes time to actually get good at, not games where you can just jump right in and be like" OH SHI- I'm pro already".

 

[kys]

I guess I don't see z-canceling as a barrier to good combos. Spacing, timing, adjusting to DI and percents, character movement, and lack of creativity keep me from doing really good combos. Not a single button input.

All sorts of people can z-cancel fluently and you don't see them pulling off wtfcombos.

Subjectively, you can like z-canceling. I'll admit I like it for the same reason Yobo said; it's fun when you can **** your friends to the point where they accuse you of cheating.

But objectively, you've gotta see why it doesn't make sense, and how it's different from other techskill.

 

[asianaussie]

I'm saying that l-cancelling gives some sort of difficulty to a combo that is considered to be good. Why would anyone wanna play a game with professional combos that are ridiculously easy to do with no sort of mechanic that can actually mess up your combo if your not consistent with it. I wanna actually do a good combo and feel good about it and not have that feeling that everybody else can do it without effort. Because then I'll just end up dropping the game all together. I like games that takes time to actually get good at, not games where you can just jump right in and be like" OH SHI- I'm pro already".

first, no it doesn't give difficulty to combos, i can z-cancel and i can't pull off the training mode nonsense you see people like ricky do, i have a very minimum techskill and muscle memory level and yet i can still compete

techskill is not what a fighting game should be about, it needs to be about reads, stage control, good spacing and punishment, not 'oh look he missed a z-cancel while throwing out hitboxes TIME FOR A FREE 80%' - sure, you have your games with one-frame links and ridiculous stick inputs, but hell, if i want to play a character like sakura and find she has dumb links i have to muscle memory up with, then that's just a pointless two months or so in training mode

i know i for one would love a game which is deep and has little to no arbitrary techskill - things like short hops and pivots i can understand, but this is purely an arbitrary and entirely not-necessary button press that you have to learn not to even think about when executing every single time you land with an aerial

it's preferable to be better at a game than your peers because you outplay and read them, not because you spend more time grinding the game out

 

[SheerMadness]

Some of your egos are astounding. You can't tell other people their opinions are wrong.

I like reward based advanced techs that allow for deeper game play (and also create skill gaps between players). That's my opinion.

Maybe you don't like advanced techs which create skill gaps/barriers. That's your opinion.

Neither side is wrong. Grow up people.

 

[Battlecow]

Lol I like how your argument went from "If you don't like z-canceling in 64 go play brawl because it's the same game and without z-canceling there would be no combos" to "I like the skill gap that z-canceling creates"

Your original argument was objectively wrong. Yes, surprising as it is, sometimes one side is incorrect.

 

[asianaussie]

i would listen to bcow, he's well versed in objective badness

and it's ironic since the only thing increased tech requirements does is stroke the egos of those who can perform them when they beat all their friends who dont practise

 

[SheerMadness]

your argument went from "If you don't like z-canceling in 64 go play brawl because it's the same game and without z-canceling there would be no combos"

Never said that. Good job making stuff up.

I said this:

"If you don't like l-canceling go play brawl."

Reading comprehension there BC. Work on it.

 

[kys]

Maybe you don't like advanced techs which create skill gaps/barriers. That's your opinion.

Correct, but it is a fact that z-canceling is a techskill different than any other because it is always the optimal strategy. And this fact is strong. Strong enough that it should sway opinion greatly.

 

[Battlecow]

"If you don't like l-canceling you're in luck, Nintendo made a smash game just for you. Go play it. It's really that simple."

It's the "really that simple" that cracks me up

along with the

"L/Z-canceling enables faster game play and more/longer combos"

^^that's like the definition of objectively wrong. It simply does not.

 

[SheerMadness]

Actually it does. There's no way to argue against it.

Explain to me how it would be possible to achieve the combos I achieve without Z-canceling? Or play as fast as I play without Z-canceling my aerials?

Arguing for theoretical game play changes like "auto canceling every aerial" has absolutely nothing to do with whether Z-canceling makes ssb64 deeper or not.

If you don't Z-cancel you simply have far less options than people who do. Again, that's a fact. Were talking ssb64 as it exists today. Not theoretical battle cattle ssb64 game play with "auto canceling".

 

[Battlecow]

Oh hey that makes a lot of sense

except everyone always was talking about "taking away z-canceling" in the sense of "making it automatic."

You misunderstood, and then once you realized that you changed your argument. It doesn't make you dumb, it just makes you wrong.

 

[SheerMadness]

Nope, didn't misunderstand anything. The depth thing was a direct response to this:

anyone who actually thinks z-cancelling adds depth is either trolling or just very stubborn (and i think this might be the only issue on which sk, ballin, bcow and i all agree on without reservation)

He mentions nothing about auto canceling there. Just that Z-canceling doesn't add depth. So I responded.

Your reading comprehension is just terrible BC. Like I said, work on it.

 

[asianaussie]

uh

...wait

did people actually think anyone was for removing z-cancelling but not removing the landing lag?

remove both z-cancelling AND the landing lag animations when you don't z-cancel and boom presto you have the same ****ing game as you had before, but without the needless button press

the appropriate response would be

Reading comprehension there. Work on it.

and yes i know that this came after but still, nobody has been arguing to keep the landing lag and remove Z-cancelling, that's just dumb

 

[Izuhu]

sure, you have your games with one-frame links and ridiculous stick inputs, but hell, if i want to play a character like sakura and find she has dumb links i have to muscle memory up with, then that's just a pointless two months or so in training mode

Yea a pointless two months but that's one of the sacrifices you have to make when playing competitively.

You think the first character you pick up when playing competitively is gonna be the character you stick with through your whole competitive career.

NO, a whole bunch of top smash players talk about this in their interviews saying that when they started out they picked up characters thinking they'll be good, but ended up in the long run dropping them because they found out they're bad to compete at high level with. Its all trail and error, but is it really in vain.

NO, because now you have more knowledge about the game with a character you use to play as, and having knowledge about a game is always good when playing competitively.

it's preferable to be better at a game than your peers because you outplay and read them, not because you spend more time grinding the game out

Yea it is preferred, but if you wanna base a game entirely on reading, might as well play chess.

 

[Frogles]

honestly we wouldn't get more quality players if z-cancelling/landing lag didn't exist. if that were the case then i wouldn't destroy players who can consistently z cancel and isai wouldn't destroy everybody.

personally i kind of like z-cancel >___>

 

[asianaussie]

lol, nice paragraph change (not sarcastic, i really mean it)

im fine with having to grind that stuff out personally (the time i've spent in melty training mode is actually quite substantial), but not having to do it would be more accessible to everyone and just easier to work with

when i said 'pointless' i meant that it's dumb because if she didn't have 1-framers (just a 3 or 4 frame link would be super a-ok tbh) then i wouldn't have to grind that so hard and would instead be able to pick up a near-optimal BnB and learn things from there easily

and (taking a leaf from SK's book) i knew someone would bring up the chess thing, sigh

 

[SheerMadness]

brawl is not bad because it has no l-cancelling, it's bad because it's ****ing slow and doesn't feel like a well-paced game because the idea of momentum hardly seems to exist

anyone who actually thinks z-cancelling adds depth is either trolling or just very stubborn (and i think this might be the only issue on which sk, ballin, bcow and i all agree on without reservation)

also if you dont cancel kirby dair or pika fair you can sometimes surprise somebody pre-emptively running in, but that's like...a terrible thing to do

No where in this post does it say anything about auto canceling. You were simply talking about whether z-canceling adds depth to ssb64 or not.

My reading comprehension was spot on.

 

[asianaussie]

for that post, sure, but you clearly didn't read some previous posts then

auto-cancelling was specifically mentioned before that (by clubba, SK and even me)

 

[Izuhu]

lol, nice paragraph change (not sarcastic, i really mean it)

Glad ya like it

(taking a leaf from SK's book) i knew someone would bring up the chess thing, sigh

lol and I knew someone gonna say something about it

 

[Battlecow]

Look dude, I'm not even saying it's your fault, but everyone was having a conversation about auto-z-canceling, you came in and were wrong about stuff, and then you claimed that it was all just opinions and that neither side was right or wrong. Well, no, you were wrong. Maybe it's not your fault because you weren't privy to earlier posts, but still.

 

[SheerMadness]

I wasn't wrong about anything. Some posts mentioned auto canceling. More posts didn't mention it.

This whole thing started off by ballin hating on z-canceling, and he didn't even mention auto canceling to begin with. He was just straight up hating on z-canceling. Example:

But z canceling is not strategically interesting. It's pressing an extra button every single time. It adds nothing to the game, yet it limits the player pool. THAT is why I despise z canceling.

Just because you mentioned auto canceling doesn't mean the whole argument was about it. Again, reading comprehension BC. Work on it.

 

[Battlecow]

See now I'm starting to think that maybe I've been overly generous by saying that you may not be to blame for the misunderstanding

ballin' clearly meant that z-canceling should be automatically incorporated without having to press the button

it stemmed from a discussion we had a while ago about the same issue

if you'd read and comprehended--and you seem to be big on that--you'd know that

Just to be clear, this is not an opinion, and you cannot possibly get out of this argument maintaining that you were ever "right." Ballin' WAS talking about automatic z-canceling, and you DID misunderstand him. His post didn't make that clear to you, because everyone but you understood the context.

you're wrong

 

[asianaussie]

i guess i cant blame you for not remembering every petty squabble on the forum, but nobody has ever argued to remove Z-cancelling without removing the lag

people were specifically talking about the button press being unnecessary, as well as like 4 people talking about how the game state would be 100% exactly the same without it...surely that signifies to you that they aren't talking about removing the cancelling of lag and only removing the need to press a button...

 

[SheerMadness]

Ballin started this whole thing. And NONE of his posts mention anything about auto canceling.

If you guys had some previous argument on a different thread about auto canceling that is not my fault.

And these are all opinions. I think deep down everyone realizes that, except you battle cattle. You're the only one on here with an ego big enough to think that all your opinions are correct.

 

[Battlecow]

Look dude, I'm not even saying it's your fault, but everyone was having a conversation about auto-z-canceling, you came in and were wrong about stuff, and then you claimed that it was all just opinions and that neither side was right or wrong. Well, no, you were wrong. Maybe it's not your fault because you weren't privy to earlier posts, but still.

See now that you're caught up to this point, the above post may finally make sense to you.

Yeah dude, which of my "opinions" am I being arrogant about? The opinion that we were talking about automatic z-canceling? Because we were. You were wrong. That's a fact. Once again, if you didn't understand the context that's fine, just say "yeah I was wrong, misunderstanding." But the fact that I have to tell you this 900 times is a little funny.

I know you don't wanna lose this, but there's no other way out. Being a prick and calling me arrogant won't alter the facts. No one will think less of you if you just go "wow, that was a misunderstanding" and then drop the whole thing. This conversation only needs to continue if you insist on continuing to accuse me of arrogance or whatever.

 

[SheerMadness]

Nah your ego is funny. Mainly because you think you're right about everything on smashboards. Oh and now because you're saying I'm wrong for responding to an argument someone started, that coincidentally, never mentioned anything about what you're attempting to say the whole argument is about.

LOL

You're ridiculous BC.

Good thing I absolutely **** you at ssb64.

Yes, now you can talk about my ego being big if you want.

 

[Izuhu]

wait does project m have l canceling? you're telling me they went and purposefully added l cancelling in? WTF

I really don't wanna get into this but the argument was the source from here , and ballin clearly is talking about manual l-cancelling. If the argument started before this please inform me.

 

[SheerMadness]

Nah that's where it started. They may have had some argument/discussion about auto canceling in the past but that really has nothing to do with anything now does it?

BC's ego just can't handle not being right all the time. Thus, he's going to continue wasting his time trying to convince me that I'm somehow wrong.

 

[ballin4life]

I'm saying that l-cancelling gives some sort of difficulty to a combo that is considered to be good. Why would anyone wanna play a game with professional combos that are ridiculously easy to do with no sort of mechanic that can actually mess up your combo if your not consistent with it. I wanna actually do a good combo and feel good about it and not have that feeling that everybody else can do it without effort. Because then I'll just end up dropping the game all together. I like games that takes time to actually get good at, not games where you can just jump right in and be like" OH SHI- I'm pro already".

The difficulty in combos does not come from z cancels. Look at any of Ricky/Isai/Prince/etc's combos. You think you'd automatically be able to do those if z cancels were automatic? I doubt it.

Once again - Z cancels are NOT where the "skill gap" comes from. If Z cancels were automatic you would not suddenly be pro at the game after 10 minutes of play. That's just ridiculous and it ignores all the real depth in the game.

Some of your egos are astounding. You can't tell other people their opinions are wrong.

Some things can come down to opinions. You might prefer tech skill over everything else - that's an opinion and if you really think that then I will say "fine". But we are also talking about things that aren't opinion - like "does z canceling reduce the number of competitive players?"

I like reward based advanced techs that allow for deeper game play (and also create skill gaps between players). That's my opinion.

Maybe you don't like advanced techs which create skill gaps/barriers. That's your opinion.

Straw man. I don't like the design of adding techniques that require lots of practice yet add no strategic depth to the game. I am fine with techniques that add strategic depth.

I wasn't wrong about anything. Some posts mentioned auto canceling. More posts didn't mention it.

This whole thing started off by ballin hating on z-canceling, and he didn't even mention auto canceling to begin with. He was just straight up hating on z-canceling. Example:



Just because you mentioned auto canceling doesn't mean the whole argument was about it. Again, reading comprehension BC. Work on it.

Well, it should have become clear pretty quickly that I was talking about automatic z cancels. Did you really think I wanted aerials to have a **** ton of landing lag? And multiple people tried to clarify that point repeatedly.

 

[SheerMadness]

Some things can come down to opinions. You might prefer tech skill over everything else - that's an opinion and if you really think that then I will say "fine". But we are also talking about things that aren't opinion - like "does z canceling reduce the number of competitive players?"

Lol come on dude. That's a theory. An untested idea or OPINION. Don't act like your theories are some how facts.

Well, it should have become clear pretty quickly that I was talking about automatic z cancels. Did you really think I wanted aerials to have a **** ton of landing lag? And multiple people tried to clarify that point repeatedly.

No, you should have made it clear by stating it yourself. Instead you were just going off about hating z-canceling and how little it adds to this game without ever once mentioning auto canceling.

 

[prisonchild]

taking something literally ≠ comprehending it.

 

[The Star King]

lol every time Sheer gets his initial argument destroyed he changes his argument instead of giving up because he's too stubborn to concede or something

he did this vs me in the Apex thread about "escaping shieldstun earlier with keyboard" too

and if you truly did not understand we want auto-canceling then that's your fault, because there was this:

...wait

did people actually think anyone was for removing z-cancelling but not removing the landing lag?

remove both z-cancelling AND the landing lag animations when you don't z-cancel and boom presto you have the same ****ing game as you had before, but without the needless button press

and even earlier, this:

@Sheer, and yea, they're talking about automatic canceling vs manual.

and you should be able to infer their argument from many posts, because otherwise 90% of what people were saying wouldn't make sense. TANK was able to infer that - why weren't you?

also I lol'd at this:

(and i think this might be the only issue on which sk, ballin, bcow and i all agree on without reservation)

 

[ballin4life]

Lol come on dude. That's a theory. An untested idea or OPINION. Don't act like your theories are some how facts.

That's not an opinion. It is either true or false, whereas opinions obviously are neither true nor false. Now, we don't have that data to say 100% for sure whether that statement is true or false, but I and others are providing arguments as to why it is likely to be true.