The New Match-up Chart

[Izuhu]

I honestly had no problem with L-cancelling, and for the fact that you could use l, r, or z to cancel in melee made it more flexible to adjust to your liking. L-Cancelling to me separated those who had dexterity to those who were just too lazy to obtain it. For example Mario Kart DS and snaking. People ***** on how snaking is cheating when they don't take the time to learn it which results in them not being able to have the skill to do it at all anyways. Plus I don't really care about the barrier of entry because if there was no barrier the game will be easy to get into, which means no challenge.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I honestly had no problem with L-cancelling, and for the fact that you could use l, r, or z to cancel in melee made it more flexible to adjust to your liking. L-Cancelling to me separated those who had dexterity to those who were just too lazy to obtain it. For example Mario Kart DS and snaking. People ***** on how snaking is cheating when they don't take the time to learn it which results in them not being able to have the skill to do it at all anyways. Plus I don't really care about the barrier of entry with because if there was no barrier the game will be easy to get into which means no challenge.

I agree with this person. It's a single button press. Big whoop. Also, in brawl/Project M, you could just customize controls to make it some other button if you wish.

 

[asianaussie]

automatic cancelling vs unnecessary extra single button press

it's like a 9:1 matchup

 

[Battlecow]

I agree it's not a big deal in 64 (still bad, but not a big deal) but in melee they **** it up all the time, even at high levels. and then you die. For no good reason.

 

[kys]

Inb4 FELIPE and SERGE/GAV/NOVA

 

[The Star King]

ballin is a yahoo. I also think l-canceling is dumb but seeing as to who Project M is targeted to, them keeping it is not surprising, but ballin can't get over it because he's a yahoo.

 

[ballin4life]

I mean the real reason they kept it is that the one thing brawl did right was to get rid of it, and they can't untangle that in their minds from all of the ****ty things brawl did.

I think I love you. aa's cool too

I honestly had no problem with L-cancelling, and for the fact that you could use l, r, or z to cancel in melee made it more flexible to adjust to your liking. L-Cancelling to me separated those who had dexterity to those who were just too lazy to obtain it. For example Mario Kart DS and snaking. People ***** on how snaking is cheating when they don't take the time to learn it which results in them not being able to have the skill to do it at all anyways. Plus I don't really care about the barrier of entry because if there was no barrier the game will be easy to get into, which means no challenge.

I agree with this person. It's a single button press. Big whoop. Also, in brawl/Project M, you could just customize controls to make it some other button if you wish.

And there goes 50% of the possible community. People don't like having to practice for a week just to be able to do the moves of the game. Why not make it so that you have to press AABA for every aerial? That would take lots of dexterity and tech skill! Oh wait - that would be stupid.

Also WTF at "the game will be easy to get into". That's a) not a bad thing and b) not even freaking true about smash. You think there would be no depth to the game without L cancels? LOL at that.

ballin is a yahoo. I also think l-canceling is dumb but seeing as to who Project M is targeted to, them keeping it is not surprising, but ballin can't get over it because he's a yahoo.

As usual SK agrees with me yet still tries to talk ****.

SK I really just want to feast on the silliness of L cancel supporters. Can't you let me troll in peace?

 

[The Star King]

No .

 

[SheerMadness]

Yo wtf l-canceling is too good.

If they had just kept it for brawl there would actually be SOME combos despite the lack of hitstun.

 

[ballin4life]

Yo wtf l-canceling is too good.

If they had just kept it for brawl there would actually be SOME combos despite the lack of hitstun.

If you're trolling with this post then I applaud you sir.

 

[SheerMadness]

Not trolling.

L-canceling would open up quite a bit of comboing options if it were in brawl.

Do you not like combos, ballin?

 

[Izuhu]

And there goes 50% of the possible community. People don't like having to practice for a week just to be able to do the moves of the game. Why not make it so that you have to press AABA for every aerial? That would take lots of dexterity and tech skill! Oh wait - that would be stupid.

Also WTF at "the game will be easy to get into". That's a) not a bad thing and b) not even freaking true about smash. You think there would be no depth to the game without L cancels? LOL at that.

Yes 50% of the lazy *** community who just can't seem to take 30 mins -1 hour out of a day to get better. Yes ABAA is ******** but its not ABAA, its only "ONE" button, and you get to choose the one button you wanna use L, R ,Z (more diversity) **** in SF4 to Focus Attack Dash Cancel you have to press TWO buttons. Even if it does sound dumb that you need to press a button to cancel aerial landing(which it does), the fact that there is cancelling that takes tech skill and consistency to execute it in a game that was mainly meant to be for kids "makes it stand out".

Yea it is a bad thing because if "a" game is like WTF easy to get into and get good at there won't be nothing to differentiate skill level, and some people like me do like a challenge. Imagine getting rid of some of the advance mechanics of the game, this weakens the skill barrier.... which means now the game is prone to more scrubs that think there good because its TOO EASY to get into and get good at. That's why we need a barrier to separate those pros from scrubs. Plus if the 50% just can't seem to take that little time out of the day to practice, then they were meant to play the game casually...nuff said.

Hey....if you hate l-cancelling so much you can always complain to the devs to make a option to take it off. Which I doubt they will do but its worth a try.


Speaking of mods, a brawl mod with 64 mechanics and frame data will be rather interesting. Especially since there able to import models into the game. I would also love to see a ssb64 model duke it out with a modern brawl model lol

 

[clubbadubba]

Not trolling.

L-canceling would open up quite a bit of comboing options if it were in brawl.

Do you not like combos, ballin?

I believe he's saying instead of requiring l-canceling, just have it automatically cancel. Combos possible, unnecessary tech skill not required, is best.

@Izuhu I can't tell you how many people I've tried to get to play smash64, but they never do because they don't get z-canceling down in the first day. Its not that they're lazy, its that learning z-canceling is boring as hell. There is no thought process behind it, you just do it because you ALWAYS do it. Other tech skills have specific uses and you as a player have to make a DECISION when to use it, which is more desirable to learn.

You seem to think getting rid of z/l-canceling would remove differentiation in skill level, which doesn't make much sense. If auto cancels would put scrubs on your (not you specifically, NO BEEF) level, then you are not very good. Noobs would still be noobs, but more of them would stick with the game longer and become not noobs. We are not talking about getting rid of "advanced techs" which have purposes and are not things you would want to do every time. Z-canceling is a very specific tech that involves no decision making, and is therefore extraneous.

Saying that "its just one button" while admitting that 2 or 4 buttons would make it stupid is strange. Its like you're admitting that its a problem, but oh its not that big of a problem so its fine. I don't understand that mentality when its such an easy fix.

All that being said, don't zcancel puff's dair on yoshi unless you wanna get parried. So maybe there ARE decisions to be made! I'd rather the mechanics of that move be fixed along with the elimination of zcanceling though... Of course no one is putting out a patch on 64 anytime soon anyway so whatever.

 

[The Star King]

You can't parry Puff dair anyways unless they only get like one hit in

 

[clubbadubba]

no the parry after the dair. If you zcancel yoshi can parry before the utilt. If you don't zcancel yoshi gets popped up in the air and thus can't parry. At least sheer told me this when I was in Orlando. I dunno if the parry is guaranteed or I'm just slow to utilt

 

[rpotts]

no the parry after the dair. If you zcancel yoshi cant parry before the utilt. If you don't zcancel yoshi gets popped up in the air and thus can't parry. At least sheer told me this when I was in Orlando. I dunno if the parry is guaranteed or I'm just slow to utilt

I'm assuming you mean "If you zcancel yoshi can parry before the utilt."

I understand what you're saying, but zcancelled dair can combo into utilt so you're likely just doing the utilt slightly too slowly and just get parried sometimes. It might be a bit safer to use the no cancel dair against Yoshi players that are parry-happy but you certainly don't need to in order to avoid that punish.

 

[clubbadubba]

^^yea that's what i meant thanks. fixed it.

Like I said I'm not sure if yoshi is guaranteed a parry if he times it perfectly. I'd like to see some frame data on it.

 

[rpotts]

Well you can't parry during hitstun and Jiggs' dair certainly combos into utilt, right?

 

[ballin4life]

I believe he's saying instead of requiring l-canceling, just have it automatically cancel. Combos possible, unnecessary tech skill not required, is best.

@Izuhu I can't tell you how many people I've tried to get to play smash64, but they never do because they don't get z-canceling down in the first day. Its not that they're lazy, its that learning z-canceling is boring as hell. There is no thought process behind it, you just do it because you ALWAYS do it. Other tech skills have specific uses and you as a player have to make a DECISION when to use it, which is more desirable to learn.

You seem to think getting rid of z/l-canceling would remove differentiation in skill level, which doesn't make much sense. If auto cancels would put scrubs on your (not you specifically, NO BEEF) level, then you are not very good. Noobs would still be noobs, but more of them would stick with the game longer and become not noobs. We are not talking about getting rid of "advanced techs" which have purposes and are not things you would want to do every time. Z-canceling is a very specific tech that involves no decision making, and is therefore extraneous.

Saying that "its just one button" while admitting that 2 or 4 buttons would make it stupid is strange. Its like you're admitting that its a problem, but oh its not that big of a problem so its fine. I don't understand that mentality when its such an easy fix.

All that being said, don't zcancel puff's dair on yoshi unless you wanna get parried. So maybe there ARE decisions to be made! I'd rather the mechanics of that move be fixed along with the elimination of zcanceling though... Of course no one is putting out a patch on 64 anytime soon anyway so whatever.

<3.

And yeah puff dair is probably the only move where it's typically better to not z cancel (not counting moves that already autocancel or weird situations like Pika fair when opponent is at uber high percents)

Yes 50% of the lazy *** community who just can't seem to take 30 mins -1 hour out of a day to get better.

You expect anyone new who wants to play smash bros to put in 30 mins - 1 hour a day? That is certainly going to limit the community.

In addition to clubba's example - I have some friends that (used to) play smash bros - and they liked it a lot. The thing is, they didn't know about z canceling, so they had been playing for a long time without knowing about it. Now I'm supposed to come in and tell them "hey if you really want to have fun with this game go practice an hour a day for a week pressing z every time you hit the ground"? Their response - "screw that, I have better things to do". They can't even appreciate a huge part of the game. And maybe if they could see some of the combos and depth of the game then they might have decided to play competitively.

Yea it is a bad thing because if "a" game is like WTF easy to get into and get good at there won't be nothing to differentiate skill level, and some people like me do like a challenge. Imagine getting rid of some of the advance mechanics of the game, this weakens the skill barrier.... which means now the game is prone to more scrubs that think there good because its TOO EASY to get into and get good at. That's why we need a barrier to separate those pros from scrubs. Plus if the 50% just can't seem to take that little time out of the day to practice, then they were meant to play the game casually...nuff said.

Removing z cancels would not remove the skill gap between players. There's a huge range of skill levels at smash64 at competitive levels where everyone knows how to z cancel.

The best attribute for a game would be "easy to learn; hard to master". I'm sure that once you're decent golf and melee are lots of fun. But I'm not going to spend $1000 on lessons or 20 hours practicing waveshines alone, because I have other things to spend my money and time on. And as long as I'm hitting grounders / barely able to move around I'm not going to find the game fun.

The thing is though, having a significant learning curve really isn't the end of the world. Golf swings and waveshines actually have strategically interesting properties. Same thing with strafe jumping in Quake (which I actually did learn how to do). These might be a big barrier to noobs but they at least add something to the game. But z canceling is not strategically interesting. It's pressing an extra button every single time. It adds nothing to the game, yet it limits the player pool. THAT is why I despise z canceling.

Speaking of mods, a brawl mod with 64 mechanics and frame data will be rather interesting. Especially since there able to import models into the game. I would also love to see a ssb64 model duke it out with a modern brawl model lol

This would be cool

 

[clubbadubba]

Well you can't parry during hitstun and Jiggs' dair certainly combos into utilt, right?

i don't put all my faith into the combo meter when it comes to parries

 

[Yobolight]

Frack, I had my mind made up on the pro-z/l canceling side and now Ballin caused me to reconsider.

I liked Z/L-Canceling because it allowed me to open up a technical gap on my friends so that I could 5-stock them and they'd be like WTF.

There are good arguments on both sides, but Brawl has a lot of problems and reduced aerial lag would have helped the game become less of a spacing slog....ugh.

 

[rpotts]

Is it wrong of me to agree with everyone's points as to why z/l cancelling are frivolous inputs that add no depth to the game and 99.9% of the time need to be done, rendering the other option of missed cancel almost completely worthless (save Jigglypuff's dair,) while still not minding their existence at all?

 

[Yobolight]

I like to think that missing a z/l-cancel = tripping in brawl.

Like it is a random factor that can open up a window for punishment. Except for you can minimize it in 64/Melee, whereas brawl has mess-ups coded into the game (dumb idea).

 

[kys]

Frack, I had my mind made up on the pro-z/l canceling side and now Ballin caused me to reconsider.

I liked Z/L-Canceling because it allowed me to open up a technical gap on my friends so that I could 5-stock them and they'd be like WTF.

There are good arguments on both sides, but Brawl has a lot of problems and reduced aerial lag would have helped the game become less of a spacing slog....ugh.

There really aren't good arguments on both sides. There are bad arguments on the side of those in favor of z-canceling, and then there are good arguments on the side of those not in favor of z-canceling

 

[SheerMadness]

If you z-cancel jiggly's dair there's a good chance I'm going to parry the uptilt or rest. Z-canceling gives Yoshi a window to parry while not z-canceling pops me up in the air so I have no opportunity to parry.

Can't tell you how many times people have flipped out because I parry their rest after a z-canceled dair.

Anyway I'm a fan of l/z-canceling. I like the fact that it's a skill barrier. If you don't wanna have to learn tech skill go play a game that has no advanced techs. Like brawl.

 

[Olikus]

bigger community is the most inportant. allways. if more people would play if they didnt need to practise z-cancel. Then theres no reason to defend z-cancel not being automaticly.

 

[SheerMadness]

Sounds like you guys should all go play brawl then. You're playing the wrong game.

 

[TANK64]

If you z-cancel jiggly's dair there's a good chance I'm going to parry the uptilt or rest. Z-canceling gives Yoshi a window to parry while not z-canceling pops me up in the air so I have no opportunity to parry.

Can't tell you how many times people have flipped out because I parry their rest after a z-canceled dair.

This. This is what Clubba was trying to say. Guess we got a bunch of parry NOOBS here.

@Sheer, and yea, they're talking about automatic canceling vs manual.

And yea, I weirdly like the technical part of fighting games lol. Maybe I just like feeling/hearing/seeing the hand movement.

/creep

 

[Battlecow]

Sounds like you guys should all go play brawl then. You're playing the wrong game.

You adorable little mongoloid, you're just the wrongest every time. Very endearing.

BTW did you realize how wrong you were about brawl-should-have-z-canceling yet?

 

[SheerMadness]

Opinions are opinions son. I hate when people try to act like their opinion is correct.

If you don't like l-canceling you're in luck, Nintendo made a smash game just for you. Go play it. It's really that simple.

And if L-canceling were available in brawl I'm pretty sure a lot more of the smash community would enjoy it. Shaving half the lag off all those laggy *** aerials would certainly open up a lot more combo possibilities. Combos are fun ya know?

 

[rpotts]

Sheer, I think the point that ballin, battlecattle et al are trying to make is they should've just had "auto L cancelling" or basically little or no additional landing lag from aerials, rather than implementing a cancelling system which essentially just adds one input every time you want to do an aerial.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in the "I hate L cancelling" camp, but I don't explicitly like it either.

 

[Yobolight]

Nintendo seems to have some sort of obsession with landing lag because I don't think they want a fast metagame at the causal level.

I think they stratified the levels of play so that the metagame becomes significantly more difficult and deep at high level, and they did this in melee and 64 with Z/L aerial lag canceling. They like the stratification because they want the non-technically proficient Wii sports playing casuals to play the series.

Picture yourself as someone who never played much video games before, how would you be able to react to the high-speed game-play of a zero ending lag game? The more avid video game playing characters would destroy their kirby-playing, rock-smashing friends. Slow = easier to respond to, and therefore more accessible.

You notice that z-canceling is not a glitch and is intentionally included in the game, but is not explained anywhere within the actual game. This is because it is a gift to more competitive players. It allows Nintendo to have 2 games in 1. One for casuals and the other for competitive players.

The thing is they forced all to play slowmo smash in Brawl instead of the earlier stratification of melee and 64. Which I personally was unhappy with.

That is why z-canceling is important in smash because Nintendo can have their casual game and we can have our competitive one.

 

[Izuhu]

Eh I'm probably just a hardcore gamer that likes technicality then , cuz I just can't see auto l-cancelling being in a game with melee mechanics. Yea significant things will be easier to do if auto l-cancelling was existent but combos won't have that value anymore as they would with l-cancelling. Think about it....what makes a combo great is not only the length, the switch ups, and the creativity behind it but the inputs it takes to the do that combo that make people go "Holy****.....dat combo". With auto l-cancelling combos will be pretty easy even ridiculous ones and everything will kind of feel tool assisted in a way that there's no way you can mess up unless your opponent knows DI or you don't know the basic elements/mechanics of the game like knockback, character weight, air mobility, and such. What supposedly made Melee "hype" was its speed, technicality, and that it had combos, even though most of them I wouldn't even call combos. The definition of combos to me would be something more like ssb64. Meaning picking up a character juggling them and not dropping them. Most of these "Combos" I see in these melee combo videos are just the player actually reading the opponent incredibly well. There might be a couple of things I would call a combo in the read but the fact that they hit the ground makes that combo meter hit 0 meaning "not a combo".

Anyways I kind of like l-cancelling. The concept is dumb on how it works yes , but its grown on me and hasn't really been an issue.

If this really is an issue for you guys you can always get a decent group of people to go to the devs to have a option to toggle l-cancelling from auto to manual. I don't know how advance brawl is in the hacking development criteria but it would be cool if we can toggle it for specific players it would be also cool if we have the option to choose our air dodging type. Since you can't satisfy everyone in life and I know people who aren't too fond of the melee air dodge system anyways lol. That's one solution if its possible.

 

[kys]

The PROBLEM with z-canceling is that it is always the best option (except the ONE time with Jiggs). There's a difference here between necessary and unnecessary tech skill.

I feel stupid having to even point this out.

Yobo must have helped develop the game because he knows what the developers were thinking.

 

[asianaussie]

brawl is not bad because it has no l-cancelling, it's bad because it's ****ing slow and doesn't feel like a well-paced game because the idea of momentum hardly seems to exist

anyone who actually thinks z-cancelling adds depth is either trolling or just very stubborn (and i think this might be the only issue on which sk, ballin, bcow and i all agree on without reservation)

also if you dont cancel kirby dair or pika fair you can sometimes surprise somebody pre-emptively running in, but that's like...a terrible thing to do

 

[M!nt]

brawl isn't even that bad

 

[Yobolight]

Yobo must have helped develop the game because he knows what the developers were thinking.

It is the only theory that explains z-canceling that I know of.

 

[asianaussie]

traditional fighters like street fighter and guilty gear dont have this 'press a button to prevent ending lag' nonsense and they're plenty competitive AND manage to appeal to casuals at the same time

it's just a dumb thing they wanted to add in because 'hey guys look we have A SHIELD BUTTON (OMG AN ACTUAL BUTTON) lets give it heaps of utility lololol'

 

[SheerMadness]

L/Z-canceling enables faster game play and more/longer combos. How is that not depth? Please explain that to me.

There are plenty of people in this world that still play 64/melee that either can't or don't know how to cancel. They're stuck wallowing around in shallower game play and thus have less options. I play people like this all the time online.

We don't know what the devs were thinking. But canceling sure seems like a reward system to me. You take the time to master a fairly simple technique and you're rewarded with more options. Makes perfect sense to me.

And people really need to stop with the "if you don't agree with me you're wrong" arguing tactic. It's lame.

 

[Izuhu]

L/Z-canceling enables faster game play and more/longer combos. How is that not depth? Please explain that to me.

There are plenty of people in this world that still play 64/melee that either can't or don't know how to cancel. They're stuck wallowing around in shallower game play and thus have less options. I play people like this all the time online.

We don't know what the devs were thinking. But canceling sure seems like a reward system to me. You take the time to master a fairly simple technique and you're rewarded with more options. Makes perfect sense to me.

And people really need to stop with the "if you don't agree with me you're wrong" arguing tactic. It's lame.

Thank you Sheer.

traditional fighters like street fighter and guilty gear dont have this 'press a button to prevent ending lag' nonsense and they're plenty competitive AND manage to appeal to casuals at the same time

it's just a dumb thing they wanted to add in because 'hey guys look we have A SHIELD BUTTON (OMG AN ACTUAL BUTTON) lets give it heaps of utility lololol'

Bro do you even SF4 ?

You can cancel lag its called EX Focus Attack Cancelling you just need meter to do it and it involves using "2" buttons simultaneously. And appealing a casual crowd is not what we're trying to accomplish because there is already a big enough casual crowd our intentions are making a bigger competitive crowd by drawing people from the casual crowd.

People are gonna play the game causally regardless because not everyone is competitive.