The New Match-up Chart

[asianaussie]

Link is rated much too low in my opinion.
Fox>>Link should be Link>Fox.
I my experience this has always been true. Can anyone explain otherwise?

Your experience isn't anywhere near enough. You only play kids who spam B moves and grabs. That's why you think Link > Fox.

Link's recovery is downright pathetic. Everything else is decent - projectiles, good aerials, okay comboing...but his recovery fails him. If most characters' B-Throw > ledgehog kills him at 0% (or sets him up to be killed), you know you aren't going to have great matchups anywhere.

 

[NixxxoN]

Thank you nixxon. You saved the joke

I thought it was possible to enlarge pics on this forum but it isn't... D:

wtf geezer you said 2 hilariously wrong comments in a row. LoL @ Kirby<Falcon and Lol @ Fox<Link

 

[Deleted member]

Your experience isn't anywhere near enough. You only play kids who spam B moves and grabs. That's why you think Link > Fox.

Link's recovery is downright pathetic. Everything else is decent - projectiles, good aerials, okay comboing...but his recovery fails him. If most characters' B-Throw > ledgehog kills him at 0% (or sets him up to be killed), you know you aren't going to have great matchups anywhere.

Yeah, most links wouldn't fight near the edges but Fox can gently tap them any direction he wants and then smack him hard off the stage

 

[asianaussie]

I was just making a point on how awful his recovery is.

And to expand on that particular matchup, it's tilted a fair way in Fox's direction. Hell, Fox simply standing next to the edge is enough to scare Link into missing the edge when recovering. Fox can edgeguard Link quite easily with a ledgehog. If he looks like he'll make it he can let go, fastfall, jump and attack once he lands (I like shine > techchase grab). Fox can generally recover well, shines actually do something instead of just stalling.

Link is forced to approach Fox, rather than the other way around. An example are those matches Isai uploaded against Sensei's Fox, whose use of shines and lasers rendered Link's projectiles pretty much ineffective. Coupled with Fox's comboing and manipulation (SH D-Air grabs work pretty well), Link hasn't got a chance, especially if Fox isn't afraid to fight dirty.

Then again, there's probably a lot I'm missing...the matchup is still in Fox's favour, of that I have little doubt.

 

[P D]

if kirby has no up key or his joystick cant point up then:
kirby << falcon

if not
kirby > falcon

 

[WOTG]

I'd say Fox > Link.
Fox >>> Link however doesn't even make sense. You're saying that Link is absolutely no match for Fox. But then whenever you see a Pro Fox vs a Pro Link, it's never like that.

 

[geezer]

I agree. I never thought of fox as a strong long range character, but instead a close range. Link is strong in the medium range and when he spams the bombs and boomerang fox ends up spending all his time dodging and it's hard to get a combo off.

 

[Fireblaster]

hey guys, I updated my "people who make worthless opinions" list:

- WOTG
- geezer

 

[t3h Icy]

I agree. I never thought of fox as a strong long range character, but instead a close range. Link is strong in the medium range and when he spams the bombs and boomerang fox ends up spending all his time dodging and it's hard to get a combo off.

Lol. Why wouldn't you use Lasers?

Also on Link's recovery, me and Daedatheus played a series of matches last night, and at one point in Bthrowed with Falcon at the edge at 0% and Link died when I edgehogged.

Link's recovery sucks, nuff said.

 

[Daedatheus]

Also on Link's recovery, me and Daedatheus played a series of matches last night, and at one point in Bthrowed with Falcon at the edge at 0% and Link died when I edgehogged.

Yeah I fully remember that. Was that really at 0%?

Link blows
But I love him

 

[dch111]

I'd say Fox > Link.
Fox >>> Link however doesn't even make sense. You're saying that Link is absolutely no match for Fox. But then whenever you see a Pro Fox vs a Pro Link, it's never like that.

Whenever you see such a match that's not the case, the person playing link is isai. nuff said.

fox >> link

 

[WOTG]

Yeah, Link's recovery sucks.

Whenever you see such a match that's not the case, the person playing link is isai. nuff said.

fox >> link

Haha, you must not seen many good Link players than. I'd say between > and >>, could be either one.

 

[lordvaati]

long time no see.

looking at the chart, it's intresting to see that god Pika actually has an even fight.

also, LOL samus

also-also, on the Link vs. Fox issue, I say it's about right, since a skilled Link can have most of his moves(and recovery) countered by a skilled Fox's shine.

 

[geezer]

I will concede on the fox>>link. The foxes that I play against are probably not very skilled.

 

[t3h Icy]

Chart updated. The following were changed:

Match-Up Data Chart 2's Match-Up Value is now easier for comparisons.

Mario > Yoshi to Mario = Yoshi
Kirby >> DK to Kirby > DK
Pikachu = Falcon to Pikachu > Falcon
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Luigi >> Jigglypuff to Luigi > Jigglypuff
Luigi > DK to Luigi = DK

Debating:

Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Fox > Mario to Fox = Mario

One thing I noticed in the new chart is there are now only nine >>/<<'s, four belonging to Pikachu, four belonging to Fox and the remaining to Kirby. All the characters below Falcon (the bottom seven characters), all have a large disadvantage, up to two advantages, and the characters from Falcon and above have at least six advantages. I just think the gap is quite the trend.

One other thing I noticed is Jigglypuff is the only character with disadvantages to a character ranked lower, having two.

Anyway, keep it up guys. =)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I like what t3h icy is doing here. This is the only ever attempt to record anything solid about this bickering festival.

WOTG and Geezer.

STOP posting in this thread. What the heck is a "pro" link vs a "pro" fox to you? Just watch sensei

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, Link's recovery sucks.


Haha, you must not seen many good Link players than. I'd say between > and >>, could be either one.

facing the best links with my fox has convinced me that its >>

 

[firo]

I definitely think we need to look at some of the ness matchups. Specifically:

Ness v Jigglypuff

I'm not sure why Jigglypuff has the advantage here. Sure, ness isn't too heavy, but ness's throws, dair, and uair all kill Jigglypuff at a pretty low percentage. If Jigglypuff shields, ness has an opportunity for a shield break and an easy kill, which can happen if the ness player gets good at DJCing. The only thing that seems to be going for Jigglypuff is his gimping ability, but it does not become too much of an issue in Hyrule, and Dreamland's smaller size I feel evens it out since Ness has an easier time taking Jiggly down. At least, I think this matchup should be even.

Ness v DK

I think ness has the advantage here. DK's heaviness makes him ripe for some ****** by ness, and can be gimped pretty easily. Plus, DK's lack of vertical recovery allows Ness to recover easier. (I mentioned this last time too but it really was never discussed). The only advantage DK seems to have is his throws, and even those I feel don't make up for his other shortcomings.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think Ness beats DK

 

[Daedatheus]

I don't think Ness beats DK

Indeed, e.g. DK grabs Ness out of DJC better than any other character. Also DK outranges Ness massively and can easily gimp him.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

fox is better than mario

 

[lordvaati]

Ness v Jigglypuff

I'm not sure why Jigglypuff has the advantage here. Sure, ness isn't too heavy, but ness's throws, dair, and uair all kill Jigglypuff at a pretty low percentage. If Jigglypuff shields, ness has an opportunity for a shield break and an easy kill, which can happen if the ness player gets good at DJCing. The only thing that seems to be going for Jigglypuff is his gimping ability, but it does not become too much of an issue in Hyrule, and Dreamland's smaller size I feel evens it out since Ness has an easier time taking Jiggly down. At least, I think this matchup should be even.

depends. I'm new to this part of the smash community, so I can't really vouch much, but is Jiggly's air game as deadly as it is in the sequels? because if it has good air control or the WOP, then Ness would probably have the worst advantage.

if not, then your point is valid.

 

[Nintendude]

I'm pretty happy with this list. Just a couple more corrections I'd make:

Mario = Falcon
Mario = Jiggly

I also agree that Ness might need some tweaking. To be honest, I think Ness is the most underrated character among the really knowledgeable players here. Perhaps he goes even with Falcon? He wrecks him pretty badly once he gets a hit in and Falcon gets really screwed by his throws.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Ness is probably the most overrated because people think he's underrated

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Some comments on the jiggly matchups from a jiggly main

Ness < Jiggly
This is the matchup I feel like Jiggly is the best at. Ness's best DJC moves of uair and dair are completely outranged by jiggly's nair. Grab also generally works against any attempt to use bair/fair in djc as it like sucks them in. After a grab, comboing ness is ridculously easy (uair, uair, rest and variants). Also, ness can't do too much against dair, which generally means lost stock.
Ness's grab may be really good but it's hard to approach against constant nair.
Lastly, ness's recovery is just easily abused by jiggly who just goes off the edge and easily takes ness out. Not sure if this totally is enough for Jiggly >>Ness though because DJC shield break is a massive pain.

Jiggly= Yoshi
I have trouble understanding why eveyone thinks Jiggly has such a big advantage against Yoshi. There may be very easy combos against a character of Yoshi's weight, but i feel like 90% of the time they're foiled by the second jump of Yoshi.
Then there's shield .breaking DJC, which is a massive threat. Also because yoshi's massive fair hitbox can defeat Jiggly's nair, jiggly has trouble approaching except from above which is risky against Yoshi's usmash.
Edgeguarding Yoshi is also hard for jiggly because she doesn't have a spike, so most of the time Yoshi just absorbs a hit and makes it back.
Oh ya, eggs like own jiggly too because of the massive knockback.

Jiggly < Mario
Mario's fireballs
Jiggly also has mediocre combos against Mario being unable to combo from forward grab. It's usually just the dair->utilt variety which isn't too bad to DI out of. Fair chains are hard.
Mario on the other hand has dair->uair chains or the dair->grab that is just too good. Mario's dair is also pretty good for edgeguarding the vertically challenged Jiggly.

~ImNotPro

 

[firo]

I personally think ness goes even with falcon and can have a slight advantage, but there are plenty of people who say otherwise, and the argument for each side seems correct. I've been playing ness pretty extensively for the past few years and I think his potential is high but he's definitely a character that requires a lot training and practice to know how he works. His two major setbacks, in my opinion, his approach strategy and recovery, both can be dealt with. Once ness has an opening, he really shines.

I was thinking of writing a really in depth ness guide (like those other character guides that people were writing a few weeks back), and will probably get around to it when I have some free time.

This is what I believe ness' matchups are (in no particular order). I'll be happy to explain my reasoning if someone wants.

Ness << Pikachu

Ness < Kirby, Fox, Mario

Ness = Luigi

Ness > DK (could be =), Jigglypuff, Yoshi, Samus, Falcon, Link

Of course this is just my view. I'm probably a bit biased torwards ness anyway.

 

[t3h Icy]

Debating:

Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Fox > Mario to Fox = Mario
Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness
Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Yoshi > Jigglypuff to Yoshi = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Ness to Kirby > Ness
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi
Ness = DK to Ness > DK
Ness < Jigglypuff to Ness > Jigglypuff
Ness = Yoshi to Ness > Yoshi
Ness = Samus to Ness > Samus
Ness < Falcon to Ness > Falcon

Lots of Ness and Jigglypuff opinions, which is good since they're both low, compared to their positions on the tier list (although Jigglypuff is in the same spot, the match-ups are pretty low).

I'd like to see how Ness discussion goes.

 

[asianaussie]

Um...I think DK > Ness...

DJC only goes so far, pivot grabs from DK own. DK's should know how to counter Ness's recovery (I like forcing recovery onto the stage, then using B-Air, or D-Air if I'm coming from a ledgehog position). If the DK knows how to dodge DJC and edgeguard, he can outrange with B-Air, grabs and on occasion F-Air (since Ness seems to like DJC D-Air a lot). F-Throw combos (specifically Jump F-Throw > Up-B/F-Air) seem to work well.

Falcon should generally beat Ness, unless the Falcon is inept at comboing lets himself be thrown off a lot.

Then again, I'm pretty sure that my experience with Ness is faulty, as I can't play Ness well on keyboard and I've never played a competent DK on console using Ness.

However, I'm pretty sure Mario > Jiggs. U-Air combos early, D-Air is useful, U-Smash kills early and I haven't even mentioned fireballs. U-Air > F-Air is very dangerous to mid-damage Jiggs.

 

[firo]

When facing a DK, Ness's other aerial moves, like fair and uair, are much more effective on a DK than a dair and can remove the normal issues associated with the defense DK has from above. Using backwards accelerated bairs (where Ness jumps one way first then jumps and attacks in the opposite direction - not sure of the official name) is also effective - DK needs to predict where Ness is going to land in order to grab him out of the attack. DK also can get trapped in a series of utilts, and an upsmash by ness at faily low percents (starting at around 15%) allows Ness to combo right into them.

It's also important to note that if Ness can reach a ledge with his second jump (which often happens with DK's fthrow, for instance), he can get an instant sweetspot using down-b. This is something that DK (and to a lesser extent, falcon) cannot easily stop as he has no projectiles, moves with a largely extended downwards hitbox, nor an easy way to gimp Ness by jumping off the stage. His options are really to either dtilt or down smash, which won't hit if Ness sweetspots the ledge exactly, or to jump off the stage and dair, which can be very risky since DK can't recover far upwards.

Of course theoretical talk like this really can't fully determine a matchup, but it is interesting to think about nonetheless. I'd definitely be willing to play and record some matches with a good DK to figure this out.

 

[Deleted member]

Backwards accelerated moves from Ness are gimmicky and anybody who is used to them can deal with it really easily with something as simple as pivot then grab.


Down-B definitely does auto grab the ledge but it's very difficult for Ness to actually get back onto the stage hanging from the edge. If DK is about roll distance away Ness should never be get back without getting grabbed. If DK wants to be fancy he can also Down-B to check for a Ness roll and then right after re-grab

DK can also use Giant Punch to turn around and grab the ledge itself and depending on what the Ness chooses to do can press away from the ledge, quickly Up-B, regrab edge to knock them back to force the up-B

DK can grab Ness out of most of his moves, Up-B often beats them too unless Ness comes straight down with a down-air (maybe) but if you see a Ness doing that then there's no reason to be up-b-ing.

Up-B can get you out of combos beginning about half the time,

In Hyrule you can bounce Ness off of the Combo house and clap him for a pretty easy kill. Ness can kinda do the same thing but it often leads to DK being pretty high percentage and being high, so DK is often able to recovery back.

Almost any other stage (or even Hyrule) a throw off or up-b knockback puts Ness in a really dangerous spot where he is usually screwed

My main belief that DK beats Ness is simply that DK is faster while Ness is sort of sluggish. Most of the Ness pwners are faster and can space a lot better then the slow, fat kid with a big head. He can speed himself up momentarily but that move is really obvious if you are used to it and often puts Ness in more danger then the opponent.

---

Falcon > Ness, difficult to get stuff started on Falcon with Ness most of it is Falcon being dumb and jumping on Ness who can up-tilt. Falcon is faster and bait Ness to getting exposed, a missed up-tilt, whatever

Ness can often combo Falcon but unless he's next to an edge it often doesn't deal Falcon's death unless you get Falcon stuck in a stomp fest. Falcon, however can simply up-air his way to victory and if he forces Ness off the ledge its very unlikely for Ness to come back

Ness's up-tilt isn't like Kirby where you can up-tilt and be 90% safe, his up-tilt where he lifts his arms stays out there forever, leaving him vulnerable if he misses

---

Yoshi > Samus

Fox > Mario

Ness is not > then Yoshi in fact I think Yoshi beats Ness

I really don't think Kirby >> Yoshi either

the others are either fine or I am unsure of who wins, most of the unsure ones being too close to call who wins

 

[asianaussie]

I always thought U-Air was good against DK. F-Air and B-Air seem reasonable. However, DJC U-Air Ness is still easily grabbed. DJC F-Air might be liable to shield grabs. One thing you mentioned...grabs don't require a target to be on the ground. DK's grab range should cover most of Ness's quick-DJC movement.

While Ness's U-Tilt can be a problem (you can chain 4-6 of them pretty easily at low damage), DK can hypothetically get around it and take advantage of the lag (D-Air, N-Air > grab). Again, this is a hypothetical, but the point is that if Ness misses the U-Tilt (or is made to miss it), he'll be in trouble. The point you raised about U-Smash at about 15% is a good one - DK does have problems here. But this is no more of a problem than Ness being liable to grabs while doing smashes/U-Tilt. In terms of damage stacking, this is a problem DK has to face against virtually all enemies.

About the Down-B sweetspot, DK can just ledgehog. If not, jumping off backwards with Up-B into a ledgehog (which Ness will find hard to attack with anything but U-Air from below).

I can't claim to be a 'good' DK, but I do have a fairly original one. I'll play you if you can host (my internet doesn't like me hosting P2P).

I agree with smoke2jointz on the Yoshi>Samus and Yoshi>Ness points. Fox v Mario is a little harder to judge, considering both have viable combo potential, good projectiles and decent approaches.

 

[Supreme65]

Go Pikachu and fox. My two favorites that got me into this in the first place.

 

[Supreme65]

Hell yes he is. If he wasn't, somethings messed up.

 

[WOTG]

Debating:

Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Fox > Mario to Fox = Mario
Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness
Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Yoshi > Jigglypuff to Yoshi = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Ness to Kirby > Ness
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi
Ness = DK to Ness > DK
Ness < Jigglypuff to Ness > Jigglypuff
Ness = Yoshi to Ness > Yoshi
Ness = Samus to Ness > Samus
Ness < Falcon to Ness > Falcon

Lots of Ness and Jigglypuff opinions, which is good since they're both low, compared to their positions on the tier list (although Jigglypuff is in the same spot, the match-ups are pretty low).

I'd like to see how Ness discussion goes.

Mario = Falcon
Yoshi > Samus
Fox ? Mario
Jigglypuff = Ness
Mario = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Jigglypuff (This varies)
Kirby > Ness
Ness = Luigi
Ness = DK
Ness = Jigglypuff
Ness = Yoshi
Ness = Samus
Ness = Falcon

? = Not Sure

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

fox > mario

and ness isn't good guys.

 

[lordvaati]

fox > mario

and ness isn't good guys.

well, he's not the worst in the game, either. (especially compared to his later incarnations)

 

[asianaussie]

Ness is overrated, thanks to the old Gamefaqs tier list...He's mid tier at best, if you ask me.

I'm interested in the Fox > Mario matchup. Fox > Mario seems the most likely - easier combos, better ranged capabilities (shine > fireballs, lasers > most things in general). Mario wins out in recovery, but Fox's U-Smash generally means that recovery isn't too big a deal when they're sent flying into the horizon. Mario has a pretty guaranteed edgeguard against low recovery, high recovery from Fox needs prediction, but is still counterable. I can't say much more, my Fox isn't particularly good against Marios anyway.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:

Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Kirby >> Yoshi to Kirby > Yoshi
Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness
Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Yoshi > Jigglypuff to Yoshi = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Ness to Kirby > Ness
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Debating:

Ness = DK to Ness ? DK
Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness
Ness = Yoshi to Ness ? Yoshi
Ness < Jigglypuff to Ness ? Jigglypuff
Ness = Samus to Ness > Samus

Since the difference in opinions on Ness is large, I'm leaving them as ?'s. All I know about Ness personally is that Firo is pretty badass with him, but then again, I suck. =)

Someone should play him and see what they think. Granted though, even my Falcon and Pikachu stands up to his Ness, so I'm saying > Ness for both.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Ness = DK to Ness ? DK
Hmm, Ness combos DK so well but 1 grab can mean one gimp for DK. DK can Up b Ness out of certain combos. DK has an easy time dealing with ness's recovery while Ness might miss due to the invincibility frames.

Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness
Falcon's range kills ness. If Falcon gets caught, he'll be gimped. The matchup is probably close to even on FD and in falcon's favor on Dreamland.

Falcon > Ness

Ness = Yoshi to Ness ? Yoshi
Its a match of DJC
Ness is quicker and higher priority with a bad projectile
Yoshi is slower, has DJCC (which doesn't work that well due to ness's DJC up air), and a much better projectile
It is probably even because ness's priority and combo starters are slightly better than yoshi's regardless of the other issues.

Ness = Yoshi

Ness < Jigglypuff to Ness ? Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff is so floaty that ness has difficulties killing. DJC down air helps a lot in this matchup but Ness simply can't kill frequently enough. Jigglypuff easily deals with ness's recovery and ness has problems with Jigglypuff's.

Jigglypuff > Ness

Ness = Samus to Ness > Samus

I don't agee with this. This is probably samus's only good matchup outside of maybe Jigglypuff. Samus's priority helps a lot and Samus's floatiness prevents many combos. Samus can down air out of some ness combos and beats ness badly off stage due to bombs and down airl.

Ness = Samus or Samus > Ness

 

[Kefit]

Fox > Mario because lasers and bair combos.