The New Match-up Chart

[Zen Yore]

Luigi has the coin spike. Hitting with the bottom of the first frame of the up-B (non-sweet spot). No knockback, but DK falls low enough from hitstun and gravity such that he can't recover. Plus no one expects it to 'spike'. Not that it helps in the matchup discussion, but it's funny to do to DK.

But in terms of the matchup, Luigi just needs one up-air at mid-high percents to start an up-air chain to up/down B, which should always result in the loss of a stock. Fireballs can be used to rack up damage and to lead into combos.

Don't know what DK has, but I would definitely say Luigi advantage. Depending on what DK has, it could be > or >>.

That's my opinion.

DK can break uair chains with nair or up+B
luigi can definitely pwn DK at recovery, however a good DK knows that during the up+B stun time when he cant grab the ledge, he shouldnt be in front of the ledge waiting for the up+B to finish before he grabs the ledge, or will inevitably get dair'd.

i always do well against luigis with my DK, specially on Hyrule.
fgrab luigi on the rapetent then do Giant Punch.
Too Good.

theres definitely no way that DK > Luigi, however I wont believe Luigi > DK either
Even matchup imho

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

What about link vs pikachu? I mean pikachu has an obvious advantage, but would it be > or >>.

I think there's a lot link can do in that matchup, combo wise. shield pressure is good too. Up b escape vs link is a little more dangerous, ie boomerang.

I think its pikachu>Link...

discuss? Because DK vs luigi.. wtf, call it even if both players are beast

 

[Surri-Sama]

DK > luigi

why you ask? Personal experience ....ohhhh.....

Link >> pikachu

of course thats if you play with a lvl 1 cpu pikachu

Thg=is match-up presses the even more obviousness of the foolishness, within this thread

Pikachu > Link (Hyrule)
Pikachu >> Link (Dreamland)

WTH do we do now!

 

[P D]

fthrow -> giant punch
dair -> usmash
backthrow
just about any tent combo

all kill at stupidly low percents. DK also has much, much more range and priority against jiggly.

Jiggly can gimp DK easily with backthrow and dair to edgegaurd, but that's about it.

lol i remember when you CP my jiggly with DK in a tourney. you were piooossed lulz

 

[Zen Yore]

Am I one of the few people who think fox is a better pick against pika than falcon? I think he has an easier time approaching, has a nice projectile, and has an easier time comboing into a kill. I think fox can combo and kill pika more easily in general.

ive had bad experiences in the past with fox on pikachu

inb4 "waow nub u got pwned by surri lololol"

 

[Deleted member]

DK > luigi

why you ask? Personal experience ....ohhhh.....

Link >> pikachu

of course thats if you play with a lvl 1 cpu pikachu

Thg=is match-up presses the even more obviousness of the foolishness, within this thread

Pikachu > Link (Hyrule)
Pikachu >> Link (Dreamland)

WTH do we do now!

Just cuz you don't like a thread doesn't mean you have to troll like a ******


as for Dk vs Luigi, i'm not really sure

 

[MattNF]

I think Luigi > DK in that matchup, simply because it's stupidly easy for a half-decent luigi to zero to death DK due to his huge size.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some agreement:

Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Luigi >> Jigglypuff to Luigi > Jigglypuff

Debating:

Mario > Yoshi to Mario = Yoshi
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Kirby > Luigi to Kirby = Luigi
Kirby >> DK to Kirby > DK
Pikachu >> Link to Pikachu > Link
Luigi > DK to Luigi ? DK

DK vs Luigi seems to be difficult to conclude. Personally, I think Luigi has a very slight advantage, but I would call it even. Mostly over all the reasons already said in previous posts.

Any opinions on the top five match-ups, so we can finish those ones, as well as some more on DK vs Luigi if you haven't already input anything?

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu > Falcon

 

[P D]

Pikachu > Falcon

most falcons counter quite a few pikas

 

[Nintendude]

Mario > Yoshi to Mario = Yoshi
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Kirby > Luigi to Kirby = Luigi
Kirby >> DK to Kirby > DK
Pikachu >> Link to Pikachu > Link
Luigi > DK to Luigi ? DK

DK vs Luigi seems to be difficult to conclude. Personally, I think Luigi has a very slight advantage, but I would call it even. Mostly over all the reasons already said in previous posts.

Any opinions on the top five match-ups, so we can finish those ones, as well as some more on DK vs Luigi if you haven't already input anything?

I say:
Mario = Yoshi
Yoshi = Samus
Kirby > Luigi
Kirby > DK
not sure on Pikachu vs. Link to be honest cause it really depends on the stage but I think it's Pika >> Link on more stages than Pika > Link, so Pika >> Link it is.
Luigi = DK (any advantage Luigi has is definitely small enough that on this particular matchup chart it's essentially even)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

most falcons counter quite a few pikas

So? That doesn't change anything.

All we're getting out of this is a general consensus between smash players. Which is good, but its just not data.

There arent enough tourneys to make a matchup chart. If you wanna call it an opinion chart than fine, but we need the tourney data like in melee for a REAL matchup chart.

Pikachu ***** falcon I dont care whos falcon is playing, if the pikachu is playing properly falcon shouldnt win, maybe take 3-4 stocks but not win.

 

[Deleted member]

most falcons counter quite a few pikas

Falcon definitely doesn't counter pika, absurb statement

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Lets just clone isai and get this over with

 

[NixxxoN]

Lets just clone isai and get this over with

Or even better, JPleal making TAS videos of perfect characters matchups

O wait

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLRzDQo4BPg

Link > Ness LOL j/k

 

[P D]

So? That doesn't change anything.

All we're getting out of this is a general consensus between smash players. Which is good, but its just not data.

There arent enough tourneys to make a matchup chart. If you wanna call it an opinion chart than fine, but we need the tourney data like in melee for a REAL matchup chart.

Pikachu s falcon I dont care whos falcon is playing, if the pikachu is playing properly falcon shouldnt win, maybe take 3-4 stocks but not win.

falcon spaces pika too good

 

[Tambor]

pika spaces falcon too good

fix'd
One of the few matchups I slightly agree with. pika>falcon

 

[P D]

i could argue but lazy johns are too good

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

Mario > Yoshi to Mario = Yoshi
Kirby >> DK to Kirby > DK
Pikachu = Falcon to Pikachu > Falcon

Some agreement:

Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Luigi >> Jigglypuff to Luigi > Jigglypuff
Luigi > DK to Luigi = DK

Debating:

Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Kirby > Luigi to Kirby = Luigi
Pikachu >> Link to Pikachu > Link

I'm not going to update until there's enough changes to make it worth doing. I'm liking how this is turning out though, as it's getting at least moderately accurate. After all the match-ups above, a large portion of the chart will be finished. 66 match-ups aren't too bad when some of them are fairly agreeable on and across a length period of time.

Anyway, keep the opinions coming. I'm going to change Falcon = Pikachu back to Falcon < Pikachu in the next update, since players started giving more opinions after it was changed.

My opinions:

Mario = Yoshi
Kirby > DK
Pikachu > Falcon
Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby
Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi
Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Luigi = DK
Yoshi > Samus
Kirby = Luigi
Pikachu >> Link

 

[Deleted member]

Fox > kirby


Kirby > Yoshi instead of >>

For Mario > Falcon i'm still not convinced that Mario has an advantage big enough to make it > and not =

 

[Nintendude]

I think all the "debating" ones are fine the way they are (as in, don't change them), and yeah, I think it should be Mario = Falcon not Mario > Falcon.

 

[ballin4life]

I wouldn't say fox>mario either.

 

[NixxxoN]

Mario > Falcon definitely. Mario is one of worst falcon matchups if not the worst. Has been argued before

Fox = Mario because they can both spam lasers/fireballs each other, combo each other similarly well and its hard for fox to reflect fireballs.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

falcon vs mario is pretty even

 

[NixxxoN]

falcon vs mario is pretty even

vs YOUR falcon is pretty even, lol
What do you think about falcon's worst matchups? I can hardly find a worse matchup than mario... or pika

 

[WOTG]

I'm curious, not everyone, but do some of you actually competitively play some of these characters in match-ups of relative skill, or are you just listing their movesets than trying to make a determination of who owns who. Movesets are one thing, but how people actually preform in a match is another.

 

[Zen Yore]

i think falcon does well on Mario, but still i wouldnt call it even
Mario > Falcon

 

[MattNF]

Mario > Falcon

 

[geezer]

Link is rated much too low in my opinion.
Fox>>Link should be Link>Fox.
I my experience this has always been true. Can anyone explain otherwise?

 

[Deleted member]

Mario = Falcon

I don't see why Mario has an advantage big enough to call it his advantage

Fox > Mario

Not a one-sided **** but Fox has a lead against Mario, don't be dumb enough to get grabbed at the edge though


Fox >>> Link because Fox can overwhelm Link simply by spamming aerials. Easy to reflect projectiles, laser spamming on Link's sort of big body, better speed, majority of moves aren't as laggy as links, easy to combo, gimp


Link can combo and gimp decently, just that Fox does it better and much more easily. Link's only chance is to exploit those rare chances where there's a tiny gap exposed in Fox's offense that hopefully can lead to Fox's death. Fox would have to suck pretty bad or you have to be great/lucky with Link to pull off the win.

One of the most unfair matchups in the game

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

vs YOUR falcon is pretty even, lol
What do you think about falcon's worst matchups? I can hardly find a worse matchup than mario... or pika

wtf kirby is falcon's worst matchup by far

I find it hard to grab link when i'm fox for some reason

 

[geezer]

wtf kirby is falcon's worst matchup by far

I find it hard to grab link when i'm fox for some reason

Falcon should be pretty effective against kirby seeing as kirby is such a light character.

Funny you should say that I just find it hard for fox to grab in general and tend to stray away from that. I admit though it is a weakness in my play.

 

[MattNF]

Falcon should be pretty effective against kirby seeing as kirby is such a light character.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

We need fireblasters kirby evil grin avatar on this one. Anyone??

 

[earthadept]

I'm curious, not everyone, but do some of you actually competitively play some of these characters in match-ups of relative skill, or are you just listing their movesets than trying to make a determination of who owns who. Movesets are one thing, but how people actually preform in a match is another.

lmfao
10lmfaos

 

[NixxxoN]

****, yeah i forgot Kirby as the worst falcon matchup -.- im dum

Falcon should be pretty effective against kirby seeing as kirby is such a light character.

Kirby: "I disagree lololololol"

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

Mario > Yoshi to Mario = Yoshi
Kirby >> DK to Kirby > DK
Pikachu = Falcon to Pikachu > Falcon

Some agreement:


Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Luigi >> Jigglypuff to Luigi > Jigglypuff
Luigi > DK to Luigi = DK
Fox > Mario to Fox = Mario

Debating:

Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus

My opinion:

Mario = Falcon
Fox > Mario

Can we get a conclusion with the match-ups idling in "Some agreement"? I'm pretty sure most people agree with them, minding Luigi/DK, Fox/Mario. If not, mention why so we can get those done and get a shiny new update.

 

[infernovia]

I really want to know why some people think falcon v kirby is close to even.

Edit: Also, anyone want to jot down an analysis for fox v. luigi? My fox used to be pretty good but lately I lose to everyone with him.

I especially am interested in this matchup because apparently its an easy match for fox. However, I keep getting uair chained to down b or up b. Not sure if its DIable.

Edit: Fox's grab is pretty funky.

 

[Nintendude]

Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Luigi >> Jigglypuff to Luigi > Jigglypuff
Luigi > DK to Luigi = DK
Fox > Mario to Fox = Mario

Can we get a conclusion with the match-ups idling in "Some agreement"? I'm pretty sure most people agree with them, minding Luigi/DK, Fox/Mario. If not, mention why so we can get those done and get a shiny new update.

Mario = Kirby
Falcon vs. Samus is probably in between >> and >. I can settle for >.
Jiggly > Yoshi
Pikachu vs. Samus is another >.5 imo. I guess give Pika the >> since he's better on more stages.
Luigi > Jiggly
Luigi = DK
Fox > Mario

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Thank you nixxon. You saved the joke