The New Match-up Chart

[Nintendude]

Some Agreement:

Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Kirby >> Yoshi to Kirby > Yoshi
Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness
Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Yoshi > Jigglypuff to Yoshi = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Ness to Kirby > Ness
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Agreed with all except I think Yoshi = Samus. Not really sure about Ness = Luigi either.

Debating:

Ness = DK to Ness ? DK
Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness
Ness = Yoshi to Ness ? Yoshi
Ness < Jigglypuff to Ness ? Jigglypuff
Ness = Samus to Ness > Samus

Since the difference in opinions on Ness is large, I'm leaving them as ?'s. All I know about Ness personally is that Firo is pretty badass with him, but then again, I suck. =)

Someone should play him and see what they think. Granted though, even my Falcon and Pikachu stands up to his Ness, so I'm saying > Ness for both.

I say:
Ness = DK
Falcon = Ness (slight disadvantage for Ness but close enough to even)
Ness = Yoshi
Ness < Jiggly
Ness = Samus

 

[Superstar]

I'll echo the Ness vs Jiggly being Ness < Jiggly. And DK is either DK = Ness or DK > Ness.

I know squat on Ness vs Yoshi, Ness vs Samus, Ness vs Luigi, I don't play enough. I could theorysmash it but I'd rather speak from my own experience and frankly I have almost none.

Ness isn't as bad as most people SAY he is, but he's not particularly great either.

EDIT: Ness vs Falcon is either Falcon > Ness or Falcon = Ness. Personally its not that far of a gap, but any advantage is on Falcon's side.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

I don't really like Mario = Jiggly. I really do think Mario > Jiggly at least 60-40.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi > Ness

Yoshi > Samus

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

Kirby >> Yoshi to Kirby > Yoshi
Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Yoshi > Jigglypuff to Yoshi = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Ness to Kirby > Ness

Some Agreement:

Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi
Yoshi = Ness to Yoshi > Ness

Debating:

Ness = DK to Ness ? DK
Ness = Samus to Ness ? Samus
Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness

If you disagree with any of the "Agreement" match-ups, please mention it and your opinion, otherwise it'll be part of the next update. We're also running a little low on match-ups to actually discuss; we've covered almost all of them now, but if you feel something is wrong, again, please mention it.

And everyone is saying Fox > Mario, which is what it already is. Thanks for the opinions though.

Maybe once the chart is finalized, any disputes are taken care of, and everyone is at least on the majority of agreeing with the chart, maybe we can implement the results into some new kind of tier list, since the old one is dreadfully outdated.

 

[Superstar]

Will "Some agreement" make it in as well, cause if so, Jigglypuff is NOT = Ness. Ness is horrible at finishers, the best he's got is his uair and he can't really combo into a finishing one. He can barely combo on Jiggs period, at least the basic vertical combos [DJC uair shenanigans]. On the flip side, Jiggs can 0-death Ness quite easily, and has an equal or better approach. Ness has DJC uair/bair for approach, Jiggs has her aerial mobility and nair.

Recovery wise, both kill each other once the other is off the edge, though Jiggs will have an easier time [dtilt and such]. Not to mention Jiggs will set it up a lot easier in one of her combos, if she doesn't kill with it.

I say this as a Ness main, if we really need some Ethos in there.

EDIT: Basically, Ness vs Jiggs, you can get a 2->3 hit uair chain, and then you're done. If you want anything else, has to be some fair chain, but few people anywhere knows those and for all I know they may only be in the japanese version [at least a usable fair chain].

EDIT 2: j*p with an A is censored?

 

[t3h Icy]

If something isn't under a general consensus, why would I change it?

I don't know much about Ness/Jiggs, but it's being left in "Some Agreement" so anyone can see it and add their opinion. I personally just know about Falcon's, some of Kirby's and some of Pikachu's.

 

[amac22]

well, he's not the worst in the game, either. (especially compared to his later incarnations)

im good with ness

 

[Deleted member]

thats cool

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I'd say ness > yoshi

 

[Superstar]

@Boom - I'd think that too, but then Yoshi has that annoying super armor that may sponge most of Ness' hits [I assume they're predictable enough] and beat him down with it hard.

The only experience I have is playing SheerMadness long ago and him 5 stock ****** my Ness...and my Mario. I'd like to replay him I guess. Also playing Koro in an FFA but that counts for nothing.

EDIT: If Ness gets a hit in though Yoshi will get hit hard, and both edgeguard each other very easily. Its "easier" to build the skills for Ness to beat Yoshi than for Yoshi to beat Ness but that counts for nothing in a matchup chart unless you were going for lower skill levels. Yoshi can also do some nasty stuff to Ness as well.

 

[Zen Yore]

no1 can be good with ness

 

[P D]

no1 can be good with ness

how the heck did i 5 stock your pika with my ness

 

[S8on95]

You guys forgot to add Isai on the list.

Other than that, why so much Ness hate

 

[Zen Yore]

how the heck did i 5 stock your pika with my ness

i love how you will never forget this and dont even realize i was sandbagging the whole match

 

[firo]

Moves like Ness's utilt can break Yoshi's super armor and set him up for some nice combos. A move like fair can trade hits, but the utilt does go through moves like dair and nair. Yoshi also has trouble taking down Ness's approaches too. I know when I play SheerMadness, one of the only things Yoshi can do is try and get Ness into an egg when he approaches since Yoshi has a lack of longer range moves.

 

[S8on95]

If you count Japanese version then here again for like who knows how many times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8eKrDIAySQ&feature=channel_page

 

[Superstar]

Yes, I know about Sima. But there are differences between the versions and quite frankly I've never seen Ness do the same stuff in the NTSC version. Either the increased DI messed with it or the move/physics changed to where it fails now. Or there just isn't a Ness to such a standard that plays on console because probably increased DI and delay makes it impossible online.

Ness' utilt is easy to bait though, especially with someone like Yoshi. Anything else Ness can do, perhaps?

Also Zen [Yore] be troooooolling.

 

[MattNF]

I don't use either Ness or Yoshi, but from what I've seen it's fairly even, maybe slight advantage to yoshi

 

[asianaussie]

I'd say Yoshi > Ness, since a lot of Ness's approaches is thwarted by pivot smashes or pivot grabs...

Ness's simplest combos (DJC U-Air, U-Tilt chains) are escapable with Yoshi's 2nd jump...
Yoshi's DJC superarmor beats F-Air and N-Air until high damage, D-Air and N-Air are powerful :\

If Yoshi fails a DJC aerial and gets hit by DJC U-Air or U-Tilt (among other moves, but those two are the simplest), he's ready to be comboed...

I'm sure that I'm missing something...I haven't played a good Ness for a while...

On another note, edgeguarding Ness with Yoshi's eggs is the most fun edgeguard ever :D

 

[Deleted member]

Moves like Ness's utilt can break Yoshi's super armor and set him up for some nice combos. A move like fair can trade hits, but the utilt does go through moves like dair and nair. Yoshi also has trouble taking down Ness's approaches too. I know when I play SheerMadness, one of the only things Yoshi can do is try and get Ness into an egg when he approaches since Yoshi has a lack of longer range moves.

up-tilt doesn't break super-armor unless Yoshi is at ridiculous high percent



and Ness ***** in japanese version, but they nerfed him pretty hard in American, maybe a bit too much

 

[Nintendude]

A lot of times it looks like super armor is broken but actually Yoshi broke his double jump by attacking and got hit before the attack came out.

 

[firo]

A lot of times it looks like super armor is broken but actually Yoshi broke his double jump by attacking and got hit before the attack came out.

Yeah, I was a little unclear with what I meant. I was referring to when Yoshi breaks the super armor by attacking, since Superstar commented that Ness could be punished by his hits not having any impact. When Yoshi is just using his second jump, I don't utilit will do much besides give him some damage. I do know that moves like Ness's down smash have the potential of making Yoshi flinch at high percentages.

On a similar note, besides the fact that there is more DI and hitstun for the player that is attacking, what are the differences between the NTSC and Japanese Ness? There's that old post by Malva which describes some of the differences between the two versions, but nothing about Ness was mentioned.

 

[Deleted member]

A few differences


up-air is freakin buff and can kill at lower percentages off the top


up-tilt doesn't send them as far, making up-tilt to up-air combo an easy kill combo

up-b has no landing lag (or very little) and sends you further

Japanese Ness is pretty much top tier, but American/ European Ness is nerfed to about mid, maybe lower mid tier spot

 

[Nintendude]

Not sure if this has been discussed already but is DK really << Pikachu? DK outranges Pika and also kills him a lot faster than most characters can, somewhat negating his recovery advantage. I think it's closer to < than <<.

 

[Deleted member]

Pika beats Dk pretty hard

DK has more range but Pika outprioritizes him

easy to edgeguard DK, easy to combo, easy to gimp

Dk's gay stuff doesn't work that well on Pika, easy to Up-b out of most stuff

 

[Surri-Sama]

Dk's gay stuff doesn't work that well on Pika, easy to Up-b out of most stuff

Up b ...maybe not, a good pika can bait a DK pretty easy though...watch the Bairs and UpBs from DK and your doing alright

 

[Superstar]

He means Pika's UpB, or you got that? XD

 

[asianaussie]

If you assume both players are the same skill...Pika beats DK. B-Air, N-Air, D-Air all ****, U-Air does its job a little later, but it's very difficult to come back from (as DK), F-Smash is even more of a broken edgeguard and D-Tilt is a very easy F-Smash setup. Thunder spikes work very well. Grabs do whatever.

DK does have more raw priority, but he can be baited with extreme ease. Even the fastest DKs would have trouble against equally good players using Pika. You'd have to be very cheap (or a pure Pika main...) to counterpick DK with Pika though (unless the DK is much, much better than you).

I can't see any advantages DK has specfically against Pika. Perhaps obscure stuff at certain percentages, but meh. Pika's aerials outprioritise well, his superior momentum makes it easy to bait and punish, and you can even projectile camp to be stupid (well not so much, but meh).

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

Kirby >> Yoshi to Kirby > Yoshi
Mario > Falcon to Mario = Falcon
Yoshi > Jigglypuff to Yoshi = Jigglypuff
Kirby = Ness to Kirby > Ness

Some Agreement:

Mario > Jigglypuff to Mario = Jigglypuff
Jigglypuff > Ness to Jigglypuff = Ness
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Debating:

Ness = DK to Ness ? DK
Ness = Samus to Ness ? Samus
Ness = Yoshi to Ness ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness

Putting Ness to the side, can we get confirmation with the top four match-ups, and opinions on the middle four match-ups? Let's get those finished so then I can update again. Ness discussion is good though, but it's the only subject of interest at the moment, and even with that, we can't decide how Yoshi is against Ness.

 

[Zen Yore]

Kirby > Yoshi
Kirby > Ness

Besides, I agree with everything else (agreement, some agreement and debatings)

 

[Superstar]

Mario > Falcon and Mario = Falcon are close enough where I don't think it'll matter where you put it. Mario has the advantage but by how much I don't know.

Me needs to relearn Mario. ;_;

 

[Zen Yore]

only cvnts main mario

+Falcon has epic combos on Gayrio

and comboing on a GOOD falcon with Mario is pretty hard, if you think outside of the throw > headbutt combos box in rapetent

 

[P D]

Pika beats Dk pretty hard

DK has more range but Pika outprioritizes him

easy to edgeguard DK, easy to combo, easy to gimp

Dk's gay stuff doesn't work that well on Pika, easy to Up-b out of most stuff

more gay stuff works on pika if you're good with dk

 

[Superstar]

only cvnts main mario

+Falcon has epic combos on Gayrio

and comboing on a GOOD falcon with Mario is pretty hard, if you think outside of the throw > headbutt combos box in rapetent

Or on Dreamland, that's combo heaven for Mario.

Mario does it best when he's Gayrio. XD

 

[Nintendude]

A few differences


up-air is freakin buff and can kill at lower percentages off the top


up-tilt doesn't send them as far, making up-tilt to up-air combo an easy kill combo

up-b has no landing lag (or very little) and sends you further

Japanese Ness is pretty much top tier, but American/ European Ness is nerfed to about mid, maybe lower mid tier spot

I don't see how these changes are the difference between top and low-mid tier. Zoning and approach are the most important attributes to a character imo and those are unaffected by these changes. Also it's not like Ness can't combo or kill anymore. He still has pretty ownage combos. I can see Ness dropping like 1-2 spots, but not from top to low.

And as for the DK vs. Pika thing, you can say that for any Pika matchup. So what makes DK's so much worse that it's << instead of <?

 

[Superstar]

Probably that DK can't do squat to Pika, and Pika can pretty much combo and edgeguard DK from here to kingdom come.

And s2j said from top to mid or lower mid, not low. And apparently it was not just combos that were nerfed, his recovery too.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

mario > jigglypuff

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I might change this a bit for some of these.

Ness = DK to Ness < DK
DK's grabs are so broken, up b allows dk to hit ness well. I think this matchup might be slightly better for DK on Dreamland (gimping grabs) and equal or slightly for DK on Hyrule. If Dk can get off grabs, ness is dead.

Ness = Samus to Ness ? Samus
Samus > Ness. Ness can't combo samus well as I said before. The only problem is ness's priority but Samus's Back air and bombs help. This is the ONLY good matchup for samus outside of vs Jiggylpuff.

Ness = Yoshi to Ness ? Yoshi
I am not sure. Does anyone here want to play my yoshi using ness to test this. This means on both Dreamland and Hyrule. I still think this may be Yoshi > Ness due to DJCC preventing early combos and ness having difficulty vs eggs.

Falcon > Ness to Falcon ? Ness
Falcon > Ness
Falcon has way too much range and overall gets kills quicker. Pivot f-smash's work great vs ness and Falcon has easy combos vs ness while ness has diffuclt 0 to deaths.
It all comes down to approach. Falcon has a much easier time due to his superb range and superb speed.

 

[Superstar]

Samus' back air and bombs help but don't change the fact Ness has more priority. And while Ness can't combo Ness well, neither can Samus really. Dair to bair maybe, but that's it. Ness in return gets a small tiny uair chain when Samus is at very low percents. I really think its better left even.

I'm up to test Ness vs Yoshi, not to test who has the advantage through winning but to see how the matchup works in general.