The New Match-up Chart

[Fireblaster]

Granted though, if they do the throw and they predict you well, they can hit with the Giant Punch

What's there to predict? It's a ****ing combo

 

[t3h Icy]

What's there to predict? It's a ****ing combo

The more damage Jigglypuff has, the more time there is to get out of hitstun and jump away, above, possibly fastfall (I'd need to check that), so you may (as the DK) want to jump a little further or maybe drop a little bit. But at low percents, it's a pretty solid combo. You would have to avoid damaging Jigglypuff too much and then grab to ensure you do it, or else you may have to predict where Jigglypuff is going.

Want to test with me Fireblaster?

 

[Lovage]

this thread is getting HYPE

get at my blue link

 

[t3h Icy]

So after testing, we found that 22 and below is inescapable if the DK does it properly. 23 and above can be gotten out of, but up to about 40ish, it's possible to still hit Jigglypuff if you predict where she goes, but there's also a point where DK can't quite jump far enough.

So the Fthrow to Giant Punch combo works really well at low percentages. Fortunately, Jigglypuff doesn't take much to kill, so it's not as if 22 and under is a less common amount (as in, if it were DK doing it to Captain Falcon, Falcon survives longer so he's less likely to be at 22 and under at a randomly given time in a match).

 

[rpotts]

So after testing, we found that 22 and below is inescapable if the DK does it properly. 23 and above can be gotten out of, but up to about 40ish, it's possible to still hit Jigglypuff if you predict where she goes, but there's also a point where DK can't quite jump far enough.

So the Fthrow to Giant Punch combo works really well at low percentages. Fortunately, Jigglypuff doesn't take much to kill, so it's not as if 22 and under is a less common amount (as in, if it were DK doing it to Captain Falcon, Falcon survives longer so he's less likely to be at 22 and under at a randomly given time in a match).

Does Giant Punch kill jiggles at 22 on say, the top platform of Dreamland?

 

[t3h Icy]

We did everything in Hyrule. From the far right ledge, it kills at 4 damage, and from the centre, it kills at 7, or 6 if the Jigglypuff doesn't DI.

By the way, I should mention that all these numbers are BEFORE the Fthrow and Giant Punch, meaning the final damage before the KO is much higher.

The 22 is how much damage it takes to ensure hitting Jigglypuff, not necessarily KOing, but at most points in most stages, it should kill, since 22 + Fthrow + Giant Punch is a lot of damage.

 

[Deleted member]

All you have to do is not play stupid when Giant Punch is charged and if you do get grabbed you immediately mash out

---

also fox >> jigglypuff, that's one of the most unfair matchups in the game

 

[dch111]

I think Icy took optimal mashing into account. Unless I'm mistaken.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Fox >> Jiggs definitely, in my opinion. Excluding Luigi, Fox is puff's worst matchup, and most annoying as well. Laser, out-prioritized, out-speeded (yes, I'm making up words... even though I know it is sped), out-everything. Puff does combo Fox very easily, but against a good Fox player, puff will rarely touch Fox.

 

[WOTG]

I think it will have to stay Fox > Jiggly. The only main advantage Fox has over Jiggly is projectiles and speed. Jiggly can however duck to avoid laser spam, and when Fox approaches she can techroll, than grab, or dash avoid and hop into a drill. They both fairly combo and kill eachother.

 

[Fireblaster]

I think it will have to stay Fox > Jiggly. The only main advantage Fox has over Jiggly is projectiles and speed. Jiggly can however duck to avoid laser spam, and when Fox approaches she can techroll, than grab, or dash avoid and hop into a drill. They both fairly combo and kill eachother.

I'm fairly confident now that anything you say has no merit.

 

[Daedatheus]

and when Fox approaches she can techroll, than grab, or dash avoid and hop into a drill.

Yes because those are the only two situations that will ever occur in this matchup.

 

[WOTG]

I don't really care fire =/

Yes because those are the only two situations that will ever occur in this matchup.

hah

 

[t3h Icy]

Some agreement:

Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Luigi >> Jigglypuff to Luigi > Jigglypuff

Debating:

Mario > Yoshi to Mario = Yoshi
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Kirby > Luigi to Kirby = Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff

I think Fox >> Jigglypuff, basically on all the things that have been said earlier.

Also despite WOTG's poor points, we played as a team earlier and he actually had quite a beastly Mario (I think it was you). I have no idea where you're pulling off your logic for match-ups though.

 

[WOTG]

I may suck at explaining this sort of stuff, but I think some of these things are being exaggerated. I've never seen Fox super own Jigglypuff. I've sometimes seen the opposite tbh.

 

[Kefit]

Fox >> Jiggly simply because I have no idea how Jiggly is supposed to get around the lasers. Jiggy can essentially never even try to get close.

 

[asianaussie]

Jiggs = slow and floaty in the air...
Lasers own said characteristics.
From the lowest platform of Hyrule, Jiggs at 55% dies to U-Smash.
From a moderate height, U-Air kills at about 70%.
Shines own Jiggs if she's used her first jump, moreso if the second's been used.

What does Jiggs have against Fox that she doesn't have against anyone else? Perhaps a slightly easier U-Tilt target?

 

[Deleted member]

I may suck at explaining this sort of stuff, but I think some of these things are being exaggerated. I've never seen Fox super own Jigglypuff. I've sometimes seen the opposite tbh.

using personal experience to define matchups is bad, especially if your experiences are with noobies

 

[WOTG]

Jigglypuff being killed easy is her own disadvantage. Every character can take advantage of this. Luigi, Fox, and Pikachu however have priorities that seem to be above the others when dealing with Jiggly. Jigglypuff still has a pretty smooth stage recovery, grab game, and combos. I think its > not >> this can be correctly experimented.

using personal experience to define matchups is bad, especially if your experiences are with noobies

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[asianaussie]

I sense a flame war starting...

And smoke2jointz's right, using only personal experience isn't a good idea when matchups are concerned. This is mainly because each player has a different playstyle that won't reflect the character's complete potential.

 

[ballin4life]

Everyone uses personal experience when determining match ups, even if they don't admit it. The hard part is properly adjusting that personal experience for the relative skills of the players involved. So I probably shouldn't take into account too much that superboom's jiggly beat my fox, for example, or that my DK beat my friend's pikachu.

 

[t3h Icy]

Everyone uses personal experience when determining match ups, even if they don't admit it. The hard part is properly adjusting that personal experience for the relative skills of the players involved. So I probably shouldn't take into account too much that superboom's jiggly beat my fox, for example, or that my DK beat my friend's pikachu.

I disagree, because as I'm playing, I can figure out my mistakes as well as the opponent's as I go. If only I could correct them beforehand...

Also Fox >> Jigglypuff, I have no idea how you think Jigglypuff stands a chance. Fox has lasers for camping, Tilt and Uair combos, and can kill either by Shine spiking or by Uair/Usmashing. Jigglypuff could potentially get a Rest off of Fthrow, but based on speed and camping ability, that shouldn't happen too often to a Fox.

If you play Jigglypuff by chance, or have a buddy that does, pair yourself/him/her with a good Fox player.

 

[Surri-Sama]

This is usually where I have to close the thread because people realize how silly this "match-up" stuff is...

You'll never get rid of personal bias, doesn't matter if you're WOTG, or Smoke2joints...

 

[t3h Icy]

Well then we'll just leave Jigglypuff/DK and Jigglypuff/Fox alone for now. Moving on:

Some agreement:

Pikachu > Samus to Pikachu >> Samus
Mario > Kirby to Mario = Kirby
Falcon >> Samus to Falcon > Samus
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff > Yoshi
Luigi >> Jigglypuff to Luigi > Jigglypuff

Debating:

Mario > Yoshi to Mario = Yoshi
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Kirby > Luigi to Kirby = Luigi

Falcon/Samus and Luigi/Jigglypuff. More possible >>'s or maybe just a slight advantage?

 

[Deleted member]

Why you put Pikachu = Falcon

 

[t3h Icy]

A lot of people were agreeing with it, and most people say that it's the best character against Pikachu (although I personally think Fox is), but again, it's not as if I can't change it back afterward.

You seem really good with analyzing Jointz, so what's your opinion? It doesn't need to include a match-up decision if you can't decide.

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu beats everybody, Falcon included


I too believe Falcon is one of the better choices against Pika, but that doesn't make the matchup even


Pikachu has a guaranteed tech chase off of forward throw on 0 percent in middle platform of Hyrule. After you grab and throw you chase after and grab where they initally land

You throw them to the left:

They don't tech - you grab them.

They tech- you miss your grab and click grab again to grab

They tech away to the left- after you miss your grab you just chase after Falcon and grab him

They tech to the right- after you miss your grab you turn around and regrab.

At this point, Falcon is in a very bad position on the left side of Hyrule or is now around the **** house.

**** house combos are very easy to do with Pika since you just mess them up until about 80-90, do an up-tilt, full jump b-air off the green house, up-smash, thunder.

If Pikachu throws Falcon off the edge (Dreamland, Hyrule), then Pikachu can run off and quickly neutral air, 80% of the time Falcon now can't make it back. If you smack Falcon or throw him off the stage at mid percent he would have to get really lucky to get back since Pikachu has like 5 different ways to edgeguard Falcon, all of them easy

Pikachu, like he does on everyone else also has the infinite up-airs off the edge as well. It can start like this: up-smash, up-smash, *in one short hop* weak-nair and up-air, up-air up -air up-air up-air up-airarupairpaui



Falcon has easier zoning, pretty easy combos, pretty decent edgeguard on Pikachu, but Pikachu has the priority in up-tilt, and up-air, and the escape ability of up-b, very easy edgeguards on Falcon

Falcon has to use his speed to get in, but his lesser priority makes it sort of hard, Pika's up-tilt stops everything that Falcon tries to jump in with and Pika's tiny stubby rat arms are longer than Falcon's

Make one slip with Falcon you enter a world of pain (or gimp)

There's a list of tinier reasons, but make no mistake Pikachu beats everybody, he's simply a level above the other 11



Pikachu > Falcon

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I agree... with ... Surri...

Thats rare

 

[ballin4life]

I disagree, because as I'm playing, I can figure out my mistakes as well as the opponent's as I go. If only I could correct them beforehand...

Also Fox >> Jigglypuff, I have no idea how you think Jigglypuff stands a chance. Fox has lasers for camping, Tilt and Uair combos, and can kill either by Shine spiking or by Uair/Usmashing. Jigglypuff could potentially get a Rest off of Fthrow, but based on speed and camping ability, that shouldn't happen too often to a Fox.

If you play Jigglypuff by chance, or have a buddy that does, pair yourself/him/her with a good Fox player.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with...

I don't understand what you mean by saying you can figure out your mistakes. Obviously it's a mistake if you upb the wrong way or something, but I think there are a lot of situations where there is no clear way to tell what is a mistake. I guess you could define a mistake as anything you do where your opponent punishes but that's obvious. It sounds to me like you're saying you can tell when you make a mistake even when you're playing against bad people, but the things that work against poor players are mistakes against good players.

Also, I didn't say anything about the fox vs jiggly matchup. I said that I played superboom's jiggly with my fox, and I lost. However, I attributed that to a difference in general skill, and that was the whole point of the example, that you can't just use personal experience, you have to try to adjust it for relative skill.

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

i agree with smoke2jointz...
its possible for falcon win of course,but is much easyer for pikachu...

 

[The Star King]

Am I one of the few people who think fox is a better pick against pika than falcon? I think he has an easier time approaching, has a nice projectile, and has an easier time comboing into a kill. I think fox can combo and kill pika more easily in general.

 

[Nintendude]

Why is Luigi > DK? Seems more like even to me. I also think it should be Kirby > DK, not Kirby >> DK.

 

[Zen Yore]

Why is Luigi > DK? Seems more like even to me. I also think it should be Kirby > DK, not Kirby >> DK.

i agree
DK is so underrated

i remember a match of my DK vs booms Luigi, i end up getting 3 stocked, however i didnt main DK back then + its boom =/

also i beat MATTS! with my DK, i just spam infinites and up+B, plus dair to clap is too good

 

[NixxxoN]

I agree that DK is underrated, but i think that definitely DK < Luigi because luigi can combo DK well and edgeguard him really well (dair), while dk cant do that much vs luigi

 

[WOTG]

I agree that DK is underrated, but i think that definitely DK < Luigi because luigi can combo DK well and edgeguard him really well (dair), while dk cant do that much vs luigi

Besides Jigglypuff, Luigi is too slow to be above anyone. DK has speed and range over Luigi, and has multiple ways of comboing Luigi. That match-up is pretty even to me.

 

[NixxxoN]

Besides Jigglypuff, Luigi is too slow to be above anyone. DK has speed and range over Luigi, and has multiple ways of comboing Luigi. That match-up is pretty even to me.

You forgot the fireballs?

and luigi can escape easily of DK combos due to his floatyness and his shorter hitstun

 

[WOTG]

You forgot the fireballs?

and luigi can escape easily of DK combos due to his floatyness and his shorter hitstun

It's specific. Depends on Luigi's percentage and what combo it is. If its DK's 0-to-death wall combo, than yeah Luigi can get out of that at like any percentage. Other combos like certain Uair combos and DK punch combos, Luigi can't escape these at mid-high percentages.

 

[Deleted member]

DK isn't underrated he gets powned later on, but not in low-mid level of play where you can get away with playing like a douche

 

[asianaussie]

Luigi can hit DK with a SH double aerial very easily...
Fireballs are an advantage...
D-Smash and D-Air demolish DK when he's recovering...
Luigi can own DK in a box/with a wall as well, throw > whatever you want > Up-B...

Eh, seems like Luigi > DK, really. DK can't combo Luigi on the level that Luigi can combo DK...correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Luigi has the coin spike. Hitting with the bottom of the first frame of the up-B (non-sweet spot). No knockback, but DK falls low enough from hitstun and gravity such that he can't recover. Plus no one expects it to 'spike'. Not that it helps in the matchup discussion, but it's funny to do to DK.

But in terms of the matchup, Luigi just needs one up-air at mid-high percents to start an up-air chain to up/down B, which should always result in the loss of a stock. Fireballs can be used to rack up damage and to lead into combos.

Don't know what DK has, but I would definitely say Luigi advantage. Depending on what DK has, it could be > or >>.

That's my opinion.