Nintendude
Smash Hero
Seems pretty reasonable to me once a few last details are ironed out. It would be way better than the old one at the very least.
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The New Match-up Chart
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
Zen Yore
Smash Ace
I agree, the other one was full of bs, however, Link gets super pwned by many characters, but he should be AT LEAST mid tierNintendude1189 said:
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Well if he struggles to beat most of the characters, while other can, why would he be placed higher?
Zen Yore
Smash Ace
Individual match-ups affect but do not entirely determine a character's ranking.
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
the only high tier character link is good against is kirby
t3h Icy
Smash Master
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What else would affect a character's ranking then?
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Since individual matchups are weighted according to matchup importance, then yes, I do think that they do entirely determine a character's ranking.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Just a side-note...this game has a lot of 0-deaths...are we to take a single good hit as a potential death? That is the plausible capacity of a single good hit in this game. Some characters would undoubtedly have limitations placed upon them (eg. Samus, DK on some stages) in this case.
Character ranking shouldn't be completely based on matchups...there are other things you need to consider, such as approach options, vulnerability to combos and their ability to counter their worst matchups.
Character ranking shouldn't be completely based on matchups...there are other things you need to consider, such as approach options, vulnerability to combos and their ability to counter their worst matchups.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
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- 4,917
Updated:
Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus
I did some number crunching and organizing to make everything a lot more visually pleasing. Hopefully everyone likes it better. Something I noticed along doing that is that one of Link's Match-Ups was 1 point higher on only one side of the chart (lol), so I changed it and it actually made him drop a rank (it was with Yoshi if I remember correctly). More importantly though, I made the differences used for comparing the data before and after the importance of each match-up is considered.
Also, I was tinkering with the chart layout itself. Would this look prettier?
Debating:
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi = Ness to Luigi ? Ness
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon = Ness
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
New chart style; yes or no?
Yoshi > Samus to Yoshi = Samus
I did some number crunching and organizing to make everything a lot more visually pleasing. Hopefully everyone likes it better. Something I noticed along doing that is that one of Link's Match-Ups was 1 point higher on only one side of the chart (lol), so I changed it and it actually made him drop a rank (it was with Yoshi if I remember correctly). More importantly though, I made the differences used for comparing the data before and after the importance of each match-up is considered.
Also, I was tinkering with the chart layout itself. Would this look prettier?
Debating:
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi = Ness to Luigi ? Ness
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff ? Yoshi
Falcon > Ness to Falcon = Ness
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
New chart style; yes or no?
This is poorly thought out. A character's ranking is entirely based on how it plays against other characters. Since approach, vulnerability and countering is applied on the match-ups themselves, where are you, outside of match-ups considering these? A character's approach is part of what affects a match-up, and match-ups affect the ranking.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
I agree that what I said was poorly worded...
What I wanted to say was: the better the character, the better the matchups...I'm trying to say that it's not the other way around, and that a character's ability to counter comparatively bad matchups (eg. Pika vs Fox or Falcon is a bad matchup compared to Pika vs Link) is also there. Having several good matchups does not necessarily mean that the character is good. Samus's physical properties give her resistance to several characters, and she can outprioritise some of them too. However, these characters can still beat Samus without too much hassle. Matchups are very difficult to debate in a game where 0-deaths are theoretically applied as much as possible.
There was no real dispute, I agree that matchups count, but I don't agree that they make up the entirety of an argument for a tier list or similar ranking.
I'd like to get this clear...who would have the advantage in a matchup like this...a character who has trouble approaching but can get a good KO from one hit, or a character who has trouble comboing, but can approach with ease?
What I wanted to say was: the better the character, the better the matchups...I'm trying to say that it's not the other way around, and that a character's ability to counter comparatively bad matchups (eg. Pika vs Fox or Falcon is a bad matchup compared to Pika vs Link) is also there. Having several good matchups does not necessarily mean that the character is good. Samus's physical properties give her resistance to several characters, and she can outprioritise some of them too. However, these characters can still beat Samus without too much hassle. Matchups are very difficult to debate in a game where 0-deaths are theoretically applied as much as possible.
There was no real dispute, I agree that matchups count, but I don't agree that they make up the entirety of an argument for a tier list or similar ranking.
I'd like to get this clear...who would have the advantage in a matchup like this...a character who has trouble approaching but can get a good KO from one hit, or a character who has trouble comboing, but can approach with ease?
WOTG
Banned via Warnings
Hmm. Whats the exact point of the Chart in the end? Just to tell people who not to use against who?
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
I think its used to make a huge thread.
Naw, if the Back room idea falls through we may use this as a template
t3h Icy
Smash Master
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I don't know what you're referring to. Both charts are the same, except the second one is in the correct order (based on the data in the two data charts below it). The other one in my post a few up is just to show a numbered version to see if people like it better than just the coloured circles.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, since you have been in the whole thread. =P
But so long as the match-ups are correct, it gives the actual rankings and value of each character.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
StealthyGunnar
Smash Champion
no.
DK doesn't stand a chance vs. Jiggs.
Dair > Utilt > Utilt > Utilt > Rest
'nough said.
Umm. so? How about how heavy DK is and ho easy he is to be gimped and comboed.
DK doesn't stand a chance vs. Jiggs.
Dair > Utilt > Utilt > Utilt > Rest
'nough said.
WOTG
Banned via Warnings
That's not really answering my question. I thought it was fun at first, because it would just be a friendl;y discussion, and the list just being for show. But its more of a serious thing with credibility and all that. I'm saying whats the point in the end, especially when not everyone agrees with everything on the final list, myself personally, I'm sure I don't agree with like half of the final match-ups. If I were to make the list myself without other people's input, most of the match-ups would just be even, while all the advantages/disadvantages would be more specific.
And it's not going to stop people from using certain characters against another. Say if someone's favorite or main was Link, Ness, or Luigi, it's not going to stop them from using them against Pikachu, just because some people think they're no match for him. Stages also play a big factor in determining it. You're probably going to have to make a "chart" for every Stage.
Lol.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Fox really is that good imo.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Maybe you just suck with Jigglypuff
This combo usually doesnt work if you have good DI. And yes he does stand a chance, i would say its even and if not, a little in favour of DK
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
I think it's even as well. If dk upbs a lot, then jiggly can't combo or do **** lol
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I think it's a slight DK advantage, but it's hard to say if it's closer to even or not. I'm fine with either.
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
I can do that for you. There is a formula to get the exact values (or more like a method). It doesn't take that long, but you have to understand the math involved to be able to do it.
Once the chart is 'good enough' (i.e. what we plan on ending with), I'll do that to it, and we'll have our final values.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
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Well as many other players said, that your opinions are poorly thought-out, or just plain wrong, so I think agreement on your opinions being false for the most part is a pretty good consensus.
Also, I don't know where you're getting the idea of this to stop people from playing other characters. It's been known for ages that Pikachu destroys everyone, and yet you don't see Pikachu mains everywhere. I personally use Falcon almost entirely, and I'm sure that Brawl players don't believe in using Meta-Knight 24/7 simply because he's better than everyone else. I have no idea where you got that thought from out of this topic.
I'm pretty sure I can just use the fixed values and repeat the process I've been doing to get the original fixed values. If not though, your help is appreciated. =)
There's a couple things I want to do after the chart is finalized (or at least in general consensus). Firstly, I'd like to apply what the end results are to form some new tier list, since before this, both the tier list and the match-up chart have been debated about to no end, despite nobody doing anything about either. Finishing up that never-ending argument would be nice. Along the way I'd also like to make the data and charts as user-friendly as possible, so there won't be any twits making dozens of topics about the chart.
Some Agreement:
DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Debating:
Luigi = Ness to Luigi ? Ness
Jigglypuff = Yoshi to Jigglypuff ? Yoshi
New chart layout?
Numbers on the circles or not?
So are we going to go with DK = Jigglypuff. I've used both characters moderately, and I still think DK has an advantage at least. Me and Fireblaster tested the Fthrow -> Giant Punch combo and at what percentages it works at. DK is a huge target and makes excellent Rest bait, so if Jigglypuff combos DK, the size of him makes it even easier to string into a Rest. I would say DK > Jigglypuff, but again, I've only used both briefly.
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
Numbers on Circle...
I don't like the 5-4-3-2-1 numbers on the circle. I think everyone understands blue/green is good and red/orange is bad. If we were to put numbers, I would say put 50/50, 75/25 etc. ... but that's not what we're discussing. I say keep it to colour only.
I don't like the 5-4-3-2-1 numbers on the circle. I think everyone understands blue/green is good and red/orange is bad. If we were to put numbers, I would say put 50/50, 75/25 etc. ... but that's not what we're discussing. I say keep it to colour only.
WOTG
Banned via Warnings
What does that have to do with anything? I asked what was the exact point of the match-up chart in the end... Is it to inform people about who not to use against who? I then added detail.
Yes I prefer the colors ^^
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
Ness and Luigi in your post 1 chart 2 are reversed in the top and the left (Link before Ness on top, but Ness before Link on left). Just letting you know.
D
Deleted member
Guest
The chart simply shows what the matchup is like at a "decent" level, I'm not going to say highest because this chart isn't made by people who are superstars of 64. Some of these matchups are most likely different if they were played by people around Isai level.
The chart isn't telling you not to use a character against some other character. It's just showing how "hard" or easy it's supposed to be when both players don't suck balls.
duh
t3h Icy
Smash Master
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Thanks Blue Yoshi, I went and fixed that. Also, I'll scrap the number idea; thanks again for the the opinions.
Agreement:
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Some Agreement:
DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Debating:
Luigi = Ness?
Jigglypuff = Yoshi?
Agreement:
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Some Agreement:
DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Debating:
Luigi = Ness?
Jigglypuff = Yoshi?
T1g3rbombz
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2009
- Messages
- 284
tigerbombz > all
sniff
sniff
Kefit
Smash Journeyman
When did people agree that Pika > Ness? As I explained a few pages back it's one of the worst matchups in the game. Others agreed with me. It should definitely be Pika >> Ness.
moogle
Smash Ace
I'm reasonably sure Jiggly can always break out of DK's fthrow at low percent before he has time to jump and cargo fthrow Jiggs. Yeah, the midair fthrow to giant punch will combo (starting from 0% or close), but only if Jiggly allows it to happen by not breaking out quickly enough.
And if you want the opinion of an old tired Jigglypuff, I much prefer DK = Jiggs instead of DK > Jiggs. The rest of the Jiggs matchups seem right to me.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yoshi > Samus
Yoshi combos the crap out of Samus
Yoshi combos the crap out of Samus
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I really don't think Luigi >> Jiggly. Jiggly's superior aerial mobility really shines vs. Luigi's lack thereof. Luigi's ability to up-B combo Jiggly earlier than other characters is double-edged, as Jiggly also more quickly reaches that annoying hard-to-kill percentage.
Pikachu >> Luigi
Not too sure about the others but I still think Yoshi vs. Samus is close to even.
Pikachu >> Luigi
Not too sure about the others but I still think Yoshi vs. Samus is close to even.