The New Match-up Chart

[MattNF]

lol I just realized we were talking about BARLW

I feel like I should take a shower now to wash off this filth

jk

 

[Superstar]

I had an argument vs Nixxon, but FIU internet was FAILING.

Against good peeps, half the cast won't ever make it back ever. Ness having a terrible recovery doesn't matter that much because other people's who are better will still get edgeguarded anyways even in the 2nd jump to some extent. What Ness absolutely sucks at is getting people off the stage and preventing himself from getting off the stage, that's why he sucks.

If you're relatively easy to combo, easy to knock off, and have a hard time hitting them before they hit you, you suck, end of. This isn't Brawl, this game is about punishment.

 

[NixxxoN]

Well, what does ness usually to edgeguard? PK thunder? sux. down smash yoyo is ok. but its so risky to try to go off stage to edeguarding as if you get your 2nd jump wasted, then your chances of survival are small. its not like pika or mario who can do it because then can recover easily.

 

[Superstar]

Or grab them during their lag time, or DJC bair if they land on a platform or something.

Like I said, most recoveries in Smash64 are terrible. In fact, even going off stage to dair isn't always so risky so long as the person you're recovering has a bad recovery [which most do], and you don't miss. You say chances of survival are small, but if you hit them, well, really? There's no one stopping you from getting back.

Having more options to edgeguard matters not if most characters have terrible recoveries. Like SheerMadness says, in this game edgeguarding is easy.

This also expands to Link. His recovery is his worst attribute, but that's not entirely why he sucks. He's a bit slow in startup, has a very difficult time comboing outside of a techchase or a boomerang (or lucky uair), his projectile spam is overrated, and he's just as easy to combo as Falcon. His sword priority isn't even that great, his dair loses to a bunch of utilts and according to Fireblaster his Fsmash clanks with mario's utilt.

This is going way off topic [but good game theory], you're wrong I'm right end of.

 

[NixxxoN]

Ness and Link recoveries are probably the two worst in the game. Then chars like mario or pika are actually hard to edgeguard. Yoshi can also be so tricky to edgeguard. Thats why i said that chars like Ness and Link cant go out of edge to edgeguard because its too risky. Its either kill or die

 

[Nintendude]

I'd go for Pika = Fox if the default stage is Hyrule. Pika has plenty of weaknesses, and Fox is good at exploiting them on that stage.

Fox is too weak on small stages for this matchup to be even if we consider anything but Hyrule though.

All tournament stages should be considered. The issue with Fox is you can counterpick him to like Peach's Castle and then he'll get wrecked (especially vs. Pika). Pika vs. Fox on Hyrule is about even, but Pika wrecks Fox on counterpicks, so Pika > Fox.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Luigi = Ness to Ness > Luigi
Luigi = Samus to Luigi > Samus

Debating:

Fox = Kirby to Fox > Kirby

Alright, so I'm heading to Lethbridge tomorrow and I won't have access to internet until Saturday morning. Once I'm there, I'll pull out my flash drive and give the chart an update. As always though, keep the match-ups coming.

There's a few other things I'd like to address though. After the chart is completely finished and in total agreement, there's a few things we can do.

A) Use the results to shape up a new tier list.
B) Delve further and got from >>, >, =, <, and << to actual ratios.
C) Re-run the fixed values so that there are new values based on the information (in other words, the way I went from Data Tables 1 to 2, and repeat the process to create a 3rd, a 4th, etc, until the results become consistent).
D) Some combination of the above.
E) Leave it as it is at the end.

Also, once the chart is complete, could I create a new thread for a sticky of the Match-up Chart where there are no replies (Locked), and in the post, have a link to this topic (for references, and so we have a clean sticky at the top)?

Thanks to everyone who has helped with getting the chart where it is so far.

 

[P D]

wtf dk owns jiggly

cheap combos ftw

and jiggly has very few 0 to deaths becasue of this weight

 

[Nintendude]

Jiggly really outspaces DK as long as she doesn't fall for his bairs and up-Bs. The only really good combo DK has on Jiggly is cargo f-throw to giant punch but there's a really small window where that works. DK can be really gay to Jiggs but Jiggly is a better character with a better approach. I think it is pretty close to even.

I don't think we should do ratios. The 5 categories of matchups is way easier to agree on and also a lot more practical, as its lack of precision helps take into account differing playstyles by only caring about obvious advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Superstar]

Ness and Link recoveries are probably the two worst in the game. Then chars like mario or pika are actually hard to edgeguard. Yoshi can also be so tricky to edgeguard. Thats why i said that chars like Ness and Link cant go out of edge to edgeguard because its too risky. Its either kill or die

But like I said, in 64 all you need to edgeguard is to sneeze on the TV. You don't HAVE to go off the edge, most of the time, dsmash, grab, dash attack, bair do the job just fine.

Its not if its worst, is if it can or cannot be edgeguarding. That's what matters.

I'll give a shot on Ness vs Pikachu and Ness vs Luigi despite being inexperienced in them. Ness only has a real shot of being Pikachu > Ness if its on Hyrule. While Ness has more combo opportunities on Dreamland he'll still get wrecked there and on Peach's Castle, not to mention Saffron. While I still say the Ness falling through the slits thing is overrated, Ness can't really approach Pikachu easily at all there [And Pikachu is an excellent gimper]. Ness vs Pikachu should still stay Pikachu >> Ness.

Ness vs Luigi is Ness > Luigi. Luigi is so floaty and horizontally slow to where Ness' approach is actually better than Luigi's, and Ness outprioritizes him as well. Luigi is not like Mario in recovering, he's pretty easy to get rid of. While Ness can't combo Luigi sans platform uairs [or 2x uairs on flat ground], Ness still has a better chance hitting Luigi than Luigi hitting Ness. While Ness has the worse recovery and Luigi has sheer distance, Ness will have an easier time on Dreamland than Hyrule due to better shots at gimping [Ness will "start it up easier" I believe] sort of overriding the need to combo, not to mention platform uairs.

 

[Nybb]

I would just like to say that I think once this list is finished, it should be the new tier list. That is, once the chart is considered to be accurate, and then once matchup "importance" is taken into account...i.e. a good matchup vs. Fox is more important than a good matchup vs. Samus. Some people baww about how tier lists should take more things into account, but that is probably because they haven't played any other fighting games. Most traditional fighters base their tier lists pretty much exclusively on matchup charts, because that is really all that matters.

I also don't think there is enough of a competitive scene to try to specify the matchups to numerical ratios. The <<, <, =, >, >> categories we have now are just fine. Keep up the good work, t3h Icy.

 

[P D]

Jiggly really outspaces DK as long as she doesn't fall for his bairs and up-Bs. The only really good combo DK has on Jiggly is cargo f-throw to giant punch but there's a really small window where that works. DK can be really gay to Jiggs but Jiggly is a better character with a better approach. I think it is pretty close to even.

I don't think we should do ratios. The 5 categories of matchups is way easier to agree on and also a lot more practical, as its lack of precision helps take into account differing playstyles by only caring about obvious advantages and disadvantages.

fthrow into the wall at left hyrule from 0-14% to punch kills

his up sends jiggly brokenly far

jiggly has very bad tech roll length making easy throw finish

i belive jiggly is the only character that cant get out of dk's chain grab if done correctly becasue she floats a little before hitting the ground

uair to up smash kills her main approach, nair

 

[dch111]

I'm curious to see how it'd look without matchup importance, and compare it to with.

 

[Nintendude]

If DK grabs you in the Hyrule pit he should be able to kill you regardless unless maybe you are Samus or Luigi. Just cause he doesn't actually have to combo Jiggly beforehand doesn't make a difference imo.

 

[MattNF]

I'm really confused about DK vs Jiggly. First I thought DK had an advantage, then I thought it was even. Now I think it might be a DK advantage again.

D:

 

[NixxxoN]

DK > Jiggly

You can really **** up jiggly with up+b spam. plus the fast death combos you can apply on her. DK is definitely one of the best vs Jiggs (along with Luigi and Samus)

 

[thegreginator]

Speaking of DK...

DK = Luigi to DK < Luigi
DK > Ness to DK = Ness
DK > Samus to DK = Samus

Although I will agree that he has definite advantages against Jigss.

 

[MattNF]

DK > Jiggly

You can really **** up jiggly with up+b spam. plus the fast death combos you can apply on her. DK is definitely one of the best vs Jiggs (along with Luigi and Samus)

upb spam rarely works against good jiggs players

 

[P D]

Speaking of DK...

DK = Luigi to DK < Luigi
DK > Ness to DK = Ness
DK > Samus to DK = Samus

Although I will agree that he has definite advantages against Jigss.

i disagree with all of these

 

[Superstar]

I disagree with them too.

Luigi sucks.
DK doesn't let Ness do **** [and Ness sucks]
Samus sucks, but I don't know that one.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Luigi = Ness to Ness > Luigi

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Luigi = Samus to Luigi > Samus

Debating:

Fox = Kirby to Fox > Kirby

I'm now in Lethbridge, but we have to get a place first and I need to get a new monitor for my computer. So I suppose the most I can do is give my input.

DK vs Jigglypuff

This is a tricky one. Jigglypuff can really get going with Utilt -> Rest and other generic combos, especially since DK is the largest character by far, but DK's range can mess over them since Jigglypuff's approach due to range gets beaten. Both can flawlessly edgeguard each other, except for when Jigglypuff is very high up. DK can Dair, Bair, Up+B, DSmash and occasionally Nair, but if Jigglypuff is high up enough, she has a better chance at making it back. Jigglypuff can guard DK with a variety of moves and can go over the edge safer than DK. If DK is high up, Jigglypuff can somewhat guard; at least better than DK can (but then again, range comes into play). I would say DK is slightly advantageous over Jigglypuff, but not enough to call an advantage.

Fox vs Kirby

This is another interesting one. On a stage like Hyrule, Kirby is really slow and can get pummeled by Lasers and Fox's Shine can cover for if Kirby uses Lasers too. Fox's Uair also works wonders on Kirby since Kirby is one of the lighter characters, and Utilt and UpSmash can be put into combos as well (Utilt -> Uair work nicely due to Kirby's floatiness). Basically, Fox has to kill upward, unless the Fox is great with Shining over the edge, but that can get risky since Kirby can hover around for awhile. In Kirby's arsenal, he has the classic combos, and Dair and Utilt works well with keeping Fox in place. Spiking is also really easy on Fox since there's a large start-up on Fox's Up+B. The match-up is essentially Kirby's priority and range (both slightly better) versus Fox's speed (which is much better), but Laser camping can change that around. I would again call it even, despite Fox has a slight advantage.

 

[lordvaati]

I would just like to say that I think once this list is finished, it should be the new tier list. That is, once the chart is considered to be accurate, and then once matchup "importance" is taken into account...i.e. a good matchup vs. Fox is more important than a good matchup vs. Samus. Some people baww about how tier lists should take more things into account, but that is probably because they haven't played any other fighting games. Most traditional fighters base their tier lists pretty much exclusively on matchup charts, because that is really all that matters.

I also don't think there is enough of a competitive scene to try to specify the matchups to numerical ratios. The <<, <, =, >, >> categories we have now are just fine. Keep up the good work, t3h Icy.

that's the problem, though- with all 3 matchup charts on this site, there is-and probably always will be- debating over a character matchup, especially if some one(professionally) uses a unique style or discovers something new about said character. I mean look at the Melee chart- it's almost at 1500 posts and they still haven't made an official finalized matchup chart yet. I do agree that a 0-100% scale would be nice for this one, though.

 

[P D]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff

DK vs Jigglypuff

This is a tricky one. Jigglypuff can really get going with Utilt -> Rest and other generic combos, especially since DK is the largest character by far, but DK's range can mess over them since Jigglypuff's approach due to range gets beaten. Both can flawlessly edgeguard each other, except for when Jigglypuff is very high up. DK can Dair, Bair, Up+B, DSmash and occasionally Nair, but if Jigglypuff is high up enough, she has a better chance at making it back. Jigglypuff can guard DK with a variety of moves and can go over the edge safer than DK. If DK is high up, Jigglypuff can somewhat guard; at least better than DK can (but then again, range comes into play). I would say DK is slightly advantageous over Jigglypuff, but not enough to call an advantage.

dk has better range, priority,and combo ability.

what you said about jigglys utilt to rest is completly untrue. you cant kill dk with that combo until around 80-90 percent. plus if you have any di at all you can get out of it easy due to lack of hitstun

infinite chain grab

60% bthrow kills

30% fthrow to tornado to what ever you want kills

ub bair and dair has priority over every move including jigglys nair (her best approach)

how is it not dk > jiggs

 

[Deleted member]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Luigi = Ness to Ness > Luigi

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Luigi = Samus to Luigi > Samus

Debating:

Fox = Kirby to Fox > Kirby

I'm now in Lethbridge, but we have to get a place first and I need to get a new monitor for my computer. So I suppose the most I can do is give my input.

DK vs Jigglypuff

This is a tricky one. Jigglypuff can really get going with Utilt -> Rest and other generic combos, especially since DK is the largest character by far, but DK's range can mess over them since Jigglypuff's approach due to range gets beaten. Both can flawlessly edgeguard each other, except for when Jigglypuff is very high up. DK can Dair, Bair, Up+B, DSmash and occasionally Nair, but if Jigglypuff is high up enough, she has a better chance at making it back. Jigglypuff can guard DK with a variety of moves and can go over the edge safer than DK. If DK is high up, Jigglypuff can somewhat guard; at least better than DK can (but then again, range comes into play). I would say DK is slightly advantageous over Jigglypuff, but not enough to call an advantage.

Fox vs Kirby

This is another interesting one. On a stage like Hyrule, Kirby is really slow and can get pummeled by Lasers and Fox's Shine can cover for if Kirby uses Lasers too. Fox's Uair also works wonders on Kirby since Kirby is one of the lighter characters, and Utilt and UpSmash can be put into combos as well (Utilt -> Uair work nicely due to Kirby's floatiness). Basically, Fox has to kill upward, unless the Fox is great with Shining over the edge, but that can get risky since Kirby can hover around for awhile. In Kirby's arsenal, he has the classic combos, and Dair and Utilt works well with keeping Fox in place. Spiking is also really easy on Fox since there's a large start-up on Fox's Up+B. The match-up is essentially Kirby's priority and range (both slightly better) versus Fox's speed (which is much better), but Laser camping can change that around. I would again call it even, despite Fox has a slight advantage.

Facing Superboom's Fox on Dreamland with Kirby I think i have eaten more double lasers than in 10 matches of Hyrule

 

[NixxxoN]

I suck @ upb spam

Fixed

10DK'sUP+bIsTooGoodAgaintJiggz

 

[Deleted member]

It's not hard to bait out moves

DK's up-b too


75% of the time getting hit by Dk's up-b doesn't put Jiggly in a bad spot either

 

[t3h Icy]

dk has better range, priority,and combo ability.

It's fairly even with combos, but he does indeed have better range. Priority is iffy, since spamming Up+B isn't going to win you matches, but having higher priority is a definite plus.

what you said about jigglys utilt to rest is completly untrue. you cant kill dk with that combo until around 80-90 percent. plus if you have any di at all you can get out of it easy due to lack of hitstun

The percentage at when it kills is based on where DK is on the stage. And DIing out of it means that you just have to tech-chase, or combo into other moves (such as Dair or Uair). Jigglypuff can DI out of some of DK's combos too.

infinite chain grab

Fthrow can't, and neither can Bthrow. The Grab -> Release -> Repeat combo isn't the greatest either. That only leaves the tent in Hyrule, which does indeed chaingrab, especially ones into USmash.

60% bthrow kills

Again, that's stage based and where DK is. Jigglypuff's Bthrow has excellent knockback too, and with successful edgeguarding, it can be effective too. Of course, DK's is better overall due to Grab Range, higher damage (I think), and more knockback (only due to character weight differences).

30% fthrow to tornado to what ever you want kills

That's a terrible point. Only in Hyrule, only when there's a tornado and only if DK can manage to throw Jigglypuff in there (since DK may have to pick her up and turn around, which is escapeable). And what do you mean by "what ever you want kills"? The only one I can think of is Giant Punch, and any Smash moves wouldn't give DK enough time coming from a FThrow. Unless DK Fthrows Jigglypuff into a tornado, quickly jumps onto the platform above (in the middle of the stage) and uses DSmash, the only real move DK has for killing from the tornado is Giant Punch. At higher percentages, yes, maybe Nair, Bair, Dair over an edge, but not at 30%, unless the tornado is on the second highest platform.

And that's all in one stage in one situation.

ub bair and dair has priority over every move including jigglys nair (her best approach)

how is it not dk > jiggs

Up+B is avoidable and you make it sound like having priority is the only factor. Just avoid the hitboxs (such as DK's head). That's not to say priority isn't useful, but it's not a make or break technique.

In my opinion again, DK is slightly advantageous against Jigglypuff, but only by a small margin, and I would call it even. 55-45 type of thing.

 

[P D]

It's fairly even with combos, but he does indeed have better range. Priority is iffy, since spamming Up+B isn't going to win you matches, but having higher priority is a definite plus.

only n00b dk's spam ub

real dk's use throws and bair

The percentage at when it kills is based on where DK is on the stage. And DIing out of it means that you just have to tech-chase, or combo into other moves (such as Dair or Uair). Jigglypuff can DI out of some of DK's combos too.

jiggly is way too slow to tech chase dk. youll end up getting grabed

jiggly will most likely be on the edge of the stage becasue her nair can gimp dks ub on top.

other than gimping strats

Fthrow can't, and neither can Bthrow. The Grab -> Release -> Repeat combo isn't the greatest either. That only leaves the tent in Hyrule, which does indeed chaingrab, especially ones into USmash.

jiggly cant escape grab release, making it very easy to move to the edge of the stage and b throw

Again, that's stage based and where DK is. Jigglypuff's Bthrow has excellent knockback too, and with successful edgeguarding, it can be effective too. Of course, DK's is better overall due to Grab Range, higher damage (I think), and more knockback (only due to character weight differences).

if dk gets a f throw you're done

That's a terrible point. Only in Hyrule, only when there's a tornado and only if DK can manage to throw Jigglypuff in there (since DK may have to pick her up and turn around, which is escapeable). And what do you mean by "what ever you want kills"? The only one I can think of is Giant Punch, and any Smash moves wouldn't give DK enough time coming from a FThrow. Unless DK Fthrows Jigglypuff into a tornado, quickly jumps onto the platform above (in the middle of the stage) and uses DSmash, the only real move DK has for from the tornado is Giant Punch. At higher percentages, yes, maybe Nair, Bair, Dair over an edge, but not at 30%, unless the tornado is on the second highest platform.

And that's all in one stage in one situation.

hyrule is the most played stage.

and if jiggs does escape you can just regrab and continue to the nado.

uair to quick ftilt (tilted upward) on lower tarnados

Up+B is avoidable and you make it sound like having priority is the only factor. Just avoid the hitboxs (such as DK's head). That's not to say priority isn't useful, but it's not a make or break technique.

only n00b dk's spam ub

i was talking recovery wise with the up b

In my opinion again, DK is slightly advantageous against Jigglypuff, but only by a small margin, and I would call it even. 55-45 type of thing.

i agree with this if the dk is a scrub or something

not too many good DK's around

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I like the fthrow onto dreamland platform to giant punch from 0%...TOO GOOD

 

[MattNF]

jiggly is way too slow to tech chase dk. youll end up getting grabed

lern2teleport

 

[Shearsy]

in my experience, samus poses a few difficulties for jiggly, mainly based on her superior upB when jiggly is attempting downA drill attack, making samus hard to combo. yet jiggly does very well against kirby with the drill attack followed by upA headbutt, and kirby dies at 70%. kirby does better on saffron against jiggly, especially down at the bottom. if jiggly gets caught between the higher building and the helipad, kirby's downA destroys her vertical recovery. hence why i try not to stray down there if i can avoid it.

 

[Daedatheus]

in my experience

I'm not sure if your experience is all that applicable to this match-up discussion. No offense intended, but it sounds like your level of play is not suitable for the most objective and accurate appraisal of the matchups.

With that said, where are we with Jiggs vs. Samus? It's a pretty contested matchup still.

 

[MattNF]

Samus = Jiggs

 

[asianaussie]

Samus = Jiggs

Sounds about right. Jiggs can combo, Samus has approach and earlier rebound spike.

 

[P D]

lern2teleport

too slow
sry

 

[NixxxoN]

Sounds about right. Jiggs can combo, Samus has approach and earlier rebound spike.

Samus = Difficult to combo

Samus + DI = Even more difficult

 

[Deleted member]

It's not hard to follow Samus DI with Jiggly

if it's hard for you get better

 

[Surri-Sama]

Samus + DI = Even more difficult

I suppose it was never asked but is this chart suppose to compensate for DI on keys too?

O_o

samus on keys is comical

 

[NixxxoN]

more like i escape out of most of jiggs using samus combo breaking stuff and DI
Why you say comical on keys?

 

[Skrlx]

more like i escape out of most of jiggs using samus combo breaking stuff and DI
Why you say comical on keys?

keyboard DI