The New Match-up Chart

[Superstar]

I hear Jiggs can even combo Jiggs.

I don't know about you but that's ****. Though Keyboard DI does break stuff. And Nixxon, you use keyboard amirite?

I'm not one to be an ***, so I'll try contesting this without a loludum:

in my experience, samus poses a few difficulties for jiggly, mainly based on her superior upB when jiggly is attempting downA drill attack, making samus hard to combo. yet jiggly does very well against kirby with the drill attack followed by upA headbutt, and kirby dies at 70%. kirby does better on saffron against jiggly, especially down at the bottom. if jiggly gets caught between the higher building and the helipad, kirby's downA destroys her vertical recovery. hence why i try not to stray down there if i can avoid it.

Jiggs can attempt other stuff than dair to start a combo, so just one move "outprioritization" doesn't make or break anything. Jiggs can do much deadlier stuff after a drill than a usmash, like a uthrow/utilt for starters [I don't play jiggs, so people may know more than that]. That particular Saffron case doesn't mean so much since Saffron is rarely played and doesn't come up THAT often. Not to mention Kirby could do that to Jiggs on any stage if she recovers low [though I don't know how to get Jiggs recovering low with Kirby from something other than a dtilt =/].

 

[Daedatheus]

like a uthrow/utilt for starters

Uthrow fails on Samus, doesn't really combo into anything.

 

[NixxxoN]

Yes I use keyboard, but why we having this discussion then, I bet 50% of us usually dont play on console

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

I think this is more steered toward console matchups and not dum online

 

[asianaussie]

F-Throw on Samus fails...

If keyboard DI is taken into account, then Jiggs is gonna have trouble comboing Samus/floaties, especially with grounded moves/D-Air. But take normal, non-ridiculous DI, and it's still passable.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Luigi = Ness to Ness > Luigi

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Luigi = Samus to Luigi > Samus

Debating:

Fox = Kirby to Fox > Kirby
Jigglypuff = Samus to Jigglypuff ? Samus

 

[Superstar]

Uthrow fails on Samus, doesn't really combo into anything.

Now you know why I'm not arguing the Jiggs matchups. :D

And I keep calling it a uthrow.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

pikachu >> ness

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Samus > Jiggly
much superior range and Up+b hax

 

[Deleted member]

Jiggly > Samus

 

[P D]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff

so far no one has given me any valid/unanswered counter points to why dk > jiggly is not true

Jiggly > Samus

lol no

jiggs cant win against bombs bair dair and screw attack

and she cant combo samus

 

[Nintendude]

Jiggly definitely is at the very least even with Samus, and I think she has a slight advantage. Jiggly doesn't have to combo Samus. Just land a couple aerials and then a drill or up-tilt Rest and Samus is done. Jiggly negates Samus's attrition.

 

[Deleted member]

so far no one has given me any valid/unanswered counter points to why dk > jiggly is not true





lol no

jiggs cant win against bombs bair dair and screw attack

and she cant combo samus

Jiggly can combo samus


and screw attack isn't hard to deal with (unless you SUCKK)

 

[asianaussie]

Jiggs = Samus...

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Samus's b-air in this matchup and bombs hurt Jigglypuff way too much. Also, regardless of being able to DI out of Samus's up b, Samus's f-air and n-air can allow samus to escape.

This is the only matchup in the game where Samus legitimately can stay even and kill easily

Samus>Jigglypuff

 

[Nintendude]

If Samus "legitimately can stay even" that sounds to me like Samus = Jiggly.
But besides that, Jiggly is still simply a way better character than Samus is. Jiggly only needs a few pokes and then a Rest while Samus still needs to build up the damage, and unlike against other characters, Samus has almost no tech chase opportunities (the only good potential combos she has that are more than 2 hits). Jiggly can also be extremely troublesome if she air camps.

This match is a camping match, and Jiggly outcamps Samus. Against Jigglys like SuperBoom the only way I could win was to essentially play a 10 minute camping match, and I lost a lot more than I won.

 

[P D]

This match is a camping match, and Jiggly outcamps Samus. Against Jigglys like SuperBoom the only way I could win was to essentially play a 10 minute camping match, and I lost a lot more than I won.

this could apply to any match and any match up

id say samus is pretty good at dealing with campers with charged b bombs and aggresive bair.

samus has priority and range.

jiggly has "samus combos"

 

[Kefit]

Against Jigglys like SuperBoom the only way I could win was to essentially play a 10 minute camping match

This applies to almost every match I've ever had against a competent Jiggles player, regardless of which character I used.

 

[P D]

changing the topic


pika = fox

 

[Nintendude]

Samus is awful at dealing with campers. In fact, that's one of the biggest downfalls with Samus. It's why a laser camping Fox is nearly impossible for Samus to beat. Bair is not the answer to camping. In fact, missing a Bair against an air-camping Jiggly will get you rested.

Pika = Fox on Hyrule, but Pika > Fox on smaller stages (we can't ignore counterpicks since this should apply to tournament play), so overall Pika > Fox. It's that simple.

 

[kabal]

Finally registered to these boards! I haven't found a jiggly I couldn't beat most of the time with Samus, it's definitely the best match up Samus has.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which is very important is that during Jiggly comboing you, you can usually get an up-b at the exact moment the Jiggly uses rest. Samus is invulnerable to the rest during up-b, which has saved me many times.

 

[Nintendude]

If Samus up-Bs out of a Rest combo it's Jiggly's fault.

Think of Jiggly vs. Samus like Falco vs. Ice Climbers in Melee. Falco gets wrecked unless he's being played by a top-level player, but at that high level of play the matchup swings in Falco's favor slightly. Same deal here with Jiggly vs. Samus.

 

[asianaussie]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which is very important is that during Jiggly comboing you, you can usually get an up-b at the exact moment the Jiggly uses rest. Samus is invulnerable to the rest during up-b, which has saved me many times.

Is this only if the Jiggs neglects a Z-cancel? Because a LOT of Jiggs think D-Air has no landing lag.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

no, a lot of Jiggs prefer to not Z-cancel Dair. I usually don't Z-cancel Dair so that my opponents get hit by the landing hitbox, resulting in more time to do an up-tilt or whatever. We know it has landing lag, but we prefer not to Z-cancel it.

 

[asianaussie]

Cool. I don't really play Jiggs, it's sorta stressful :D

On the Samus/Jiggs thing, Samus does have priority and range and can probably finish better, but Jiggs is better at stacking damage. All the Jiggs I've played (as Samus) are pretty vulnerable to F-Air, but they can see B-Air coming. If Jiggs camps and spaces properly, she'll probably win, but Samus can generally land some good blows too. I still think it's a pretty even matchup, perhaps slightly in Samus's favour.

 

[remedys]

jiggly=samus imo

 

[Lovage]

why are ppl using > instead of numbers like 55:45
numbers ****

 

[Nintendude]

why are ppl using > instead of numbers like 55:45
numbers ****

I made a lot of posts defending this in the Melee matchup chart thread. I'll just copy and paste some things I wrote.

Worrying about who has really slight advantages in stuff like Falco vs. Sheik is really impractical and it really is practically even. Differing playstyles kind of prevent matchup ratios to be set in stone and 5 categories helps reflect that by only caring about obvious advantages. And you also don't have to worry about just how badly Sheik ***** low tiers. They all get the same level of disadvantage provided it is bad enough, and that's more practical as well. Who cares if a **** matchup is 85-15 as opposed to 90-10? With 5 categories it is simplified and much easier to agree on. Besides, it's almost impossible to argue things like 85-15 vs. 90-10.

It's easier to defend "X has an advantage over Y" than "X has a 60-40 matchup over Y" because the concept of a 60-40 matchup is extremely arbitrary, while the concept of an "advantage" is very easy to conceptualize. You can use the exact same facts to defend 60-40 and "advantage" only it is a lot easier to properly defend "advantage" than 60-40.

The fact that this chart is nearly done shows that not doing ratios actually allows charts like this to get completed.

 

[t3h Icy]

Again, sorry for not updating, but at least this thread isn't dying without me. =P

So we have a place now, but we won't have internet until next week, so bear with me. >_> I'll update the chart eventually. Keep the discussion up though, it's turning out great.

 

[Nintendude]

Do you people who think Jiggly < Samus also think Luigi > Samus? Cause to me, it's a very similar matchup only Jiggly is better at approaching.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I have major problems against good Samuses as puff, so unless I'm missing something vital in this matchup, I'd say Samus > Jiggs.

 

[NixxxoN]

I think samus is the char that does better vs puff besides luigi. Well, DK and pika do good too

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Don't forget Fox, IMO Puff's worst matchup (though still winable).

 

[Nintendude]

I have major problems against good Samuses as puff, so unless I'm missing something vital in this matchup, I'd say Samus > Jiggs.

Well, I personally have problems against good Jigglys, and I'm probably one of the best Samus players out there.

 

[Llumys]

So, does anyone want to explain to me how Ness went from top to low?

I'm not too familiar with SSB's metagame.

 

[Fireblaster]

So, does anyone want to explain to me how Ness went from top to low?

I'm not too familiar with SSB's metagame.

Horrid approach, small range, slow, no killer combos, theoretically worst recovery in the game.

 

[Llumys]

Ah. I always thought his technical potential would've kept him up there.

 

[Fireblaster]

Ah. I always thought his technical potential would've kept him up there.

all it does is let him break a few shields and stay in place with uair defense.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Luigi = Ness to Ness > Luigi

Some Agreement:

Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Luigi = Samus to Luigi > Samus

Debating:

Fox = Kirby to Fox > Kirby
Samus = Jigglypuff to Samus > Jigglypuff

I'm going to hopefully get this updated for tomorrow. Can we conclude Luigi and Jigglypuff's match-ups?

 

[Lovage]

Yes I use keyboard, but why we having this discussion then, I bet 50% of us usually dont play on console

i read this and it made me feel sorry for all you online smashers that never get to play real n64 smash bros