The New Match-up Chart

[t3h Icy]

Just an FYI, I will still be watching this thread and trying to keep everything together, but I won't be able to update for awhile. My house caught on fire today, but everything's fine, etc, I just won't have my computer readily available for awhile, which has all the data.

No worries though, just the next update won't be anytime soon.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I hope everyone and everything is ok.

As for the matchups, I'd say Luigi >> Puff. It's just too easy to combo into up-B, while much harder for puff to combo into rest. I believe Luigi can also up-B after a puff drill ending in mid-air... well, at least he can up-B out of dair strings.

 

[Deleted member]

JIggly has better spacing then Luigi, but Luigi has better risk/reward

I don't think Jiggly gets ***** on the level of Fox ****** Jiggly/Link/Luigi


Luigi > Jiggly

 

[Lovage]

let's talk about fox vs. link

i hate it so much

i'm gonna give it >>>>>>>>>>

 

[Surri-Sama]

i agree with Luigi > Puff

Jiggly has to many easy combos on light chars for it to be that one sided..plus its really easy to approach luigi

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Debating:

Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Luigi = Ness?
Jigglypuff ? Yoshi

 

[MattNF]

EDIT: nevermind im dUm

 

[Nintendude]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff

Some Agreement:

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Debating:

Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus
Luigi = Ness?
Jigglypuff ? Yoshi

Pikachu >> Luigi
Luigi > Jiggly
Yoshi = Samus (slight Yoshi advantage but not enough for it not to be > imo)
Luigi < Ness
Jiggly = Yoshi

Ness is pretty **** once he gets hits in, but usually those hits are pretty hard to land. Luigi is probably the easiest character for Ness to approach, which is why I think Luigi < Ness.

 

[P D]

dk > jiggly

 

[t3h Icy]

So I guess the last few match-ups are the ones that we can't get agreement on?

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi = Jiggly

Anyone who thinks Jiggly > Yoshi either hasn't played a good Yoshi or one that doesn't know what the hell they're doing vs Jiggly.

 

[MattNF]

Yoshi = Jiggly

Anyone who thinks Jiggly > Yoshi either hasn't played a good Yoshi or one that doesn't know what the hell they're doing vs Jiggly.

I agree

...

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness

Pikachu > Ness. This isn't as bad a matchup as the luigi match below. Ness at least has the priority to keep up with pikachu. Down air combos work well vs Pikachu. Pikachu can gimp ness so easily that it is still a + matchup but Ness's DJC prevent the >> matchup.

Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Pikachu >> Luigi....Luigi can't gimp Pikachu well and Pikachu 's n-air, back air, and up air get luigi off the stage and edeguard way too easily. It comes down to Pikachu's incredible priority and approach.


Debating:

Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff

Luigi >> Jigglypuff Combine the fact that Luigi up b kills....I think at 30, and that Luigi is so floaty that Jigglypuff has problems comboing.

Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus

Yoshi > Samus. Yoshi back air goes through virtually all of samus's moves. This is one of the few matchups that Yoshi is able to Up tilt to down air combo and not be punished. Also, Yoshi's N-air combos samus well at low percentages and Yoshi's DJCC can get Yoshi out of the few combos that Samus has.

Luigi = Ness

Luigi = ness. Its priority vs the up b. if Luigi had a better Shorthop and higher priority, it would be a >Luigi matchup (like the + Mario matchup).

Jigglypuff ? Yoshi

Jigglypuff = Yoshi. Its combos vs combos. Yoshi can DJCC out of many of jigglypuff's more simple rest combos. Yoshi Egg camping helps as well and Yoshi's n-air and back air out prioritize most of Jigglypuff's moves. Yoshi just needs to space to not be hit by that many throws, especially at lower percentages.

 

[Kefit]

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness

Pikachu > Ness. This isn't as bad a matchup as the luigi match below. Ness at least has the priority to keep up with pikachu. Down air combos work well vs Pikachu. Pikachu can gimp ness so easily that it is still a + matchup but Ness's DJC prevent the >> matchup.

Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Pikachu >> Luigi....Luigi can't gimp Pikachu well and Pikachu 's n-air, back air, and up air get luigi off the stage and edeguard way too easily. It comes down to Pikachu's incredible priority and approach.

Luigi gimps Pikachu easier than Ness gimps Pikachu - Pika is very susceptible to uair into upb/downb kills. Ness' only means of gimping Pika is catching him with a dair on a small platform.

Pika also gimps and combos Ness easier than he does Luigi. While it's fairly easy to uair chain Luigi off the stage, it's pretty hard to actually kill him. Luigi has one of the best come-backs in the game, so this often won't be enough to guarantee a kill. Ness, on the other hand, can often be combo'd all the way to the blast-zone. And even if Pika can't carry Ness all the way there, once Ness is off the platform he is dead. Period.

And DJC doesn't really do anything to a smart Pika. It's not like Ness can DJC death combo Pika anywhere but the bottom platform of Dreamland, and even then Pika should be able to DI out of the kill.

These are both unfair matchups in Pikachu's favor deserving of a >>. But it's a worse match for Ness. If you have Pika >> Luigi, then you must have Pika >> Ness.

 

[Nintendude]

I still don't believe that Luigi's up-B on Jiggly is a good reason to make it a >> matchup. If Luigi catches other characters (besides fastfallers) at 30% he can just continue to uair combo until the character is at kill range. With Jiggly he just goes directly into up-B, so what's the actual difference? The end result is the same. Also, as I said before, Jiggly becomes a big nuisance to kill if Luigi doesn't land that up-B while she's still at low-mid damage.

 

[Superstar]

The only benefit of DJC REALLY is the ability to throw out those uairs almost split second. I mean, he can DJC combo but most better characters can normal combo anyways.

Along with a few other obvious stuff, but I wanted to make it short and sweet. I was just explaining that Koro meant DJC as in avoding/spacing scenarios rather than a combo. Its obvious Ness won't kill Pikachu in a straight up combo, he means DJC as in attempting to avoid the Pika ****.

I don't know anything about these matchups other than Pikachu is a nightmare for Ness, though I am unaware on how deep the chasm is.

Overall though Ness looks verrry low, you sure no one made a mistake and gave some other characters more favorable matchups in some places? 0.o

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness

Pikachu > Ness. This isn't as bad a matchup as the luigi match below. Ness at least has the priority to keep up with pikachu. Down air combos work well vs Pikachu. Pikachu can gimp ness so easily that it is still a + matchup but Ness's DJC prevent the >> matchup.

Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi

Pikachu >> Luigi....Luigi can't gimp Pikachu well and Pikachu 's n-air, back air, and up air get luigi off the stage and edeguard way too easily. It comes down to Pikachu's incredible priority and approach.


Debating:

Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff

Luigi >> Jigglypuff Combine the fact that Luigi up b kills....I think at 30, and that Luigi is so floaty that Jigglypuff has problems comboing.

Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus

Yoshi > Samus. Yoshi back air goes through virtually all of samus's moves. This is one of the few matchups that Yoshi is able to Up tilt to down air combo and not be punished. Also, Yoshi's N-air combos samus well at low percentages and Yoshi's DJCC can get Yoshi out of the few combos that Samus has.

Luigi = Ness

Luigi = ness. Its priority vs the up b. if Luigi had a better Shorthop and higher priority, it would be a >Luigi matchup (like the + Mario matchup).

Jigglypuff ? Yoshi

Jigglypuff = Yoshi. Its combos vs combos. Yoshi can DJCC out of many of jigglypuff's more simple rest combos. Yoshi Egg camping helps as well and Yoshi's n-air and back air out prioritize most of Jigglypuff's moves. Yoshi just needs to space to not be hit by that many throws, especially at lower percentages.

I agree with Yoshi > Samus, Jiggly = Yoshi

but some of the Yoshi reasons are weird to me

Samus is one of the few characters that Yoshi can't get out of Samus's combos 90% of the time. Samus's main staple combo, Down-air to anything (usually back-air) is pretty much impossible to double jump out of unless your opponent is slow or down-aired kind of high before getting charge shot (if this happens, Yoshi will most likely die anyways after eating the shot while double jumping).

Yoshi does combo the crap out of Samus, and has decent edge gimps that aren't hard to play off, not hard to shield pressure/ shield break Samus either, I really believe it's Yoshi > Samus but Samus can win if she plays extremely CAMPY/smart/mindgame style, pretty much the way Samus wins all her matchups


---

In the end, I don't see any glaring flaws in this chart anymore, like I said before, some of these matchups are different or even indeterminable at extreme playing levels, but this is a good enough chart for now I think with some minor tweaks

 

[Lovage]

i agree with poopy

 

[Kefit]

I still don't believe that Luigi's up-B on Jiggly is a good reason to make it a >> matchup. If Luigi catches other characters (besides fastfallers) at 30% he can just continue to uair combo until the character is at kill range. With Jiggly he just goes directly into up-B, so what's the actual difference? The end result is the same. Also, as I said before, Jiggly becomes a big nuisance to kill if Luigi doesn't land that up-B while she's still at low-mid damage.

My experience is that Luigi's down-B and its ability to come out of nowhere at pretty much any time is what makes this match-up so bad for Jiggly. Of course, down-b isn't as powerful as up-b, but Jiggy still dies to it at ridiculously low percents.

Overall though Ness looks verrry low, you sure no one made a mistake and gave some other characters more favorable matchups in some places? 0.o

Ness just sucks. I think that a lot of people assumed for a long time that he had vast potential due to DJC and high priority attacks. But none of that can make up for his horrendous come-back and his sluggish approach.

 

[Nintendude]

Luigi's down-B coming out of nowhere isn't much of a problem if the Jiggly spaces well. It's really only an issue when it comes to combos but Jiggly's combos on Luigi are somewhat limited anyway. It's definitely a Luigi advantage, but it's not extreme.

I can settle for Yoshi > Samus, just to set it in stone on the chart.

 

[Superstar]

I just mean Ness being third worst. I'd expect 4th or 5th worst, not...3rd.

If Ness is 3rd worst that means there is a MASSIVE gap between Link/Ness in practice [as in, using both of them]. Chart says they are almost the same though. But I don't really disagree with any of the Ness matchups, just I'm wondering how the others above were ranked. I know nothing on those characters so I can't really argue.

Ness' real issue is sluggish approach. The rest wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for that since most characters have terrible recovery. Approach is BIG in 64.

I need to play more.

 

[t3h Icy]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus

Some Agreement:

Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff

Debating:

Luigi = Ness to Ness > Luigi

I just found out that I actually had all the Smash stuff backed up on one of my flash drives, so I'm going to try to update this tomorrow. At least we've got Yoshi/Samus, and DK/Jiggs done. Only four more, unless there are others that need work on.

I also noticed that these current four each feature the same four characters twice. Go figure.

Keep it coming.

 

[NixxxoN]

Ness' real issue is sluggish approach. The rest wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for that since most characters have terrible recovery. Approach is BIG in 64.

I thought off the edge game is very important.
Ness fails at it

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Once this entire thing is finished...there should be another topic with a sticky lol

 

[Nintendude]

Agreement:

DK > Jigglypuff to DK = Jigglypuff
Yoshi = Samus to Yoshi > Samus

Some Agreement:

Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness
Luigi > Jigglypuff to Luigi >> Jigglypuff

Debating:

Luigi = Ness to Ness > Luigi

I just found out that I actually had all the Smash stuff backed up on one of my flash drives, so I'm going to try to update this tomorrow. At least we've got Yoshi/Samus, and DK/Jiggs done. Only four more, unless there are others that need work on.

I also noticed that these current four each feature the same four characters twice. Go figure.

Keep it coming.

I think Pikachu >> Luigi should be in agreement by now.
Pikachu vs. Ness I'm really not sure.
It's still definitely Luigi > Jiggly in my mind

Ness > Luigi is reasonable.

 

[MattNF]

Luigi = Samus should be changed to Luigi > Samus

IMO

 

[asianaussie]

Luigi = Samus should be changed to Luigi > Samus

IMO

Agreed, Luigi combos her very easily once he gets in there.

 

[Superstar]

I thought off the edge game is very important.
Ness fails at it

As does Falcon. Ness' is one of "easiest" to edgeguard, but matchup charts are attempts for top level play. Though this one seems to be geared for mid-level play like s2j said. In 64, its only a large difference if you can easily make it back [like Pikachu].

Approach and that stuff matters because if you can get your combo or the edgeguard, you have a better chance of winning, obviously.

So far though, it is shaping up to be a very nice chart.

 

[NixxxoN]

As does Falcon. Ness' is one of "easiest" to edgeguard, but matchup charts are attempts for top level play. Though this one seems to be geared for mid-level play like s2j said. In 64, its only a large difference if you can easily make it back [like Pikachu].

Approach and that stuff matters because if you can get your combo or the edgeguard, you have a better chance of winning, obviously.

So far though, it is shaping up to be a very nice chart.

Ness has a very very predictable 2nd jump that brings sh¡t mobility, so the slightest of the mistakes when being off the stage can cost you a stock.

 

[thegreginator]

Heres some things that you should consider changing:

Pikachu > Fox to Pikachu = Fox
Pikachu > Luigi to Pikachu >> Luigi
Pikachu >> Ness to Pikachu > Ness (assume Hyrule is default stage)
Fox = Kirby to Fox < Kirby
DK = Luigi to DK < Luigi
DK > Ness to DK = Ness
DK > Samus to DK = Samus
Jiggly > Ness to Jiggly = Ness
Jiggly = Samus to Jiggly < Samus
Luigi < Link to Luigi = Link

NESS SHOULD BE HIGHER
Luigi should be a little higher
DK should be a little lower

Other than that everything looks good. I really think some of the above changes should be made tho. Debate away.

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu beats Fox and has no weaknesses

If anything Fox counters Kirby not the other way around

 

[MattNF]

I agree with Fox > Kirby

lol at pikachu being top tier with no bad matchups

if this were the brawl board, there'd probably be a vote to ban her going on right now lol

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

but pikachu isn't as good as mk is in his game

also ness sucks

 

[Skrlx]

also ness sucks but MY NESS DOESN'T

Fixed for truth

 

[MattNF]

but pikachu isn't as good as mk is in his game

also ness sucks

Don't Snake and Diddy have even matchups with MK?

Looking at the chart now, Pika doesn't have any evens other than dittos.

Not that I think we should ban her though, banning characters seems kind of stupid

 

[Kefit]

I'd go for Pika = Fox if the default stage is Hyrule. Pika has plenty of weaknesses, and Fox is good at exploiting them on that stage.

Fox is too weak on small stages for this matchup to be even if we consider anything but Hyrule though.

 

[asianaussie]

MK was banned because he was far too powerful against everyone but a few, who were even with him. He has a flawless recovery and a ridiculous D-Smash, among other things. That meant a good MK would have an advantage against everyone but mains of those characters.

Pika is far more defeatable in this game. It's that simple. Why should we ban him...?

 

[earthadept]

MK wasn't banned, and is extremely defeatable. Look at SNES, lol. 1 MK in the top 8. I don't think any char should be banned. It's not like Pika or MK are untouchable...
and pika > fox fo sho

 

[MattNF]

Pika is far more defeatable in this game. It's that simple. Why should we ban him...?

try rereading my post again buddy

Not that I think we should ban her though, banning characters seems kind of stupid

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Don't Snake and Diddy have even matchups with MK?

Looking at the chart now, Pika doesn't have any evens other than dittos.

Not that I think we should ban her though, banning characters seems kind of stupid

both mk vs diddy/snake is 55:45 for mk(sure as hell doesn't seem like it <_<)

oh, pikachu is beatable, just don't be dum