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Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

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Spire

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I was looking into the WW and TP storylines (the only two games in the series I ever completed) and WW Ganon is oddly like Zant in motivations, both wanting to move from their harsh environments (Gerudo desert, Twilight realm).

I want to say that in some timeline, TP happens without Midna, and thus, Link isn't the hero because he was the divine beast that no one could see locked away into a dungeon. Zant, a member of the banished Gerudo tribe and thus having the Gerudo icon (the reason that the Gerudo symbol even exists in the Twilight realm), becomes fully possessed by Ganondorf, ruler of Twilight. The goddesses flood Hyrule so that the light spirit springs are no longer accessable, so as to never allow the possibility of the realm of Twilight surpassing the realm of light again, and brining light back into Hyrule. And thus, Zant becomes Ganondorf in Windwaker. I want to say that, but it doesn't fully make sense if TP is the direct sequel of OoT in reference to OoT, which I don't know enough about to form a timeline with.
Whoa, what? No, no, that's impossible. It kind of makes sense, but it doesn't at the same time.

Just so you won't ask any questions, I'll sum up in a good sentence why it can't happen: Ganon was never imprisoned in the Twilight Realm in Adult Link's timeline, so he never made any connection with Zant.

If you can make sense of that, then you'll understand why your theory cannot be true.
 

Spire

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Not that I want to derail the conversation, but I just read this article, and I think it might be interesting to all you fellow Zelda fans.

http://www.4colorrebellion.com/archives/2009/03/27/majoras-mask-nintendos-fluke/

The more I think about it, the more MM wants to be my favorite Zelda game. OoT is holding strong, but MM really wants to break that.
I'm currently reading this, but before I do, I would also like so admit that I've wanted to love Majora's Mask more than Ocarina of Time. I've just never completed the game, and I feel ashamed for that. I've always been so intrigued by it, so perhaps once it comes to VC, I'll (and most of us) will get the chance to do so.

Aside from that, I have recognized one of the most mature and spiritual themes throughout the story -- the sacrifice of one's self for the greater good of the world. Link just so happens to stumble into this strange world and throughout his adventure, he must absorb the souls of three other individuals to save the world. It's like a "good vampire" almost.

That was an incredible read. I've come to the realization that Ocarina of Time simply paved the way for Majora's Mask to unfold. I love OoT because a) it's incredibly nostalgic, but more so b) without it, we would not have Majora's Mask. For the record, Ikana Canyon is my favorite location in the entirety of the Zeldaverse. I love it.

All hail!
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I always go back to playing Majora's Mask every now and again, and it inspires me to play Ocarina of Time again.

However, I always like Majora's Masks gameplay and style better.
 

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Great article. Majora's Mask was indeed an amazing game. I still like OoT more, but MM is an extremely close second to it.

I just finished Link's Awakening (for the first time, yeah I feel kind of ashamed of that lol, but it was still incredible!) and I have to say it filled me with similar emotions as Majora's Mask. Everything's an illusion, and it's actually your job to end it. You spend the entire game getting to know the characters, and after you've become attached to them, you find out they're just a dream and they disappear. I'd have to say because of this, Majora's Mask isn't exactly a "fluke" because the Zelda team certainly knows how to bring up powerful emotions like this.

I will agree though that the most recent games have not been as strong as the early ones. They've come very close at some points though. For example the scenes with Ralis and Linebeck in TP and PH, yet they were very brief. Phantom Hourglass almost pulled a Link's Awakening in the end, until you find you still have the Hourglass and Linebeck's ship is traveling off into the distance.

I also didn't feel as attached to Ilia as I did with Saria (since I'm guessing they're supposed to be filling similar roles). In TP, you barely get to know Ilia and then she's kidnapped. Umm, k, I guess I'll save you then. . . In OoT you spend your entire childhood getting to know Saria, (she even teaches you one of the most memorable songs in the Zelda series!) and then after you don't see her for 7 years and you go looking for her, you find she's been kidnapped. Of course you would want to save her after all of that!

The gameplay of Zelda games has certainly become better, let's just bring back the emotional storylines that should be a given with any Legend.
 

Vorguen

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I always go back to playing Majora's Mask every now and again, and it inspires me to play Ocarina of Time again.

However, I always like Majora's Masks gameplay and style better.
Yeah, Majora's Mask has a lot of things that make it so great and fun to play that Ocarina just doesn't have but OOT is just a much better and greater game. Maybe not much, but definitely better.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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Yeah, I did kind of feel sad with Link getting to know that girl than being told it was all an illusion and when he woke the wind fish up everything would disappear.

I guess it's the Zelda games that are without Ganondorf and Zelda that are spectacular...

Except the Wind Waker sequels...those are just for money making
 

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When you talk to Marin on the beach in LA, she says she wishes she was a seagull so that she could fly to faraway lands and sing for people. She later says she actually made that wish to the Great Windfish, and it might grant it after it awakes. If you beat the game without dying, then after the credits it'll show a picture of Marin in the sky, which then blinks and is then replaced by a seagull, which flies away.

So... apparently she's a seagull now? lol. I'd be interested to see if the seagull ever appears in future games, (as in, someone has a pet seagull named Marin or a random seagull that just sings Ballad of the Windfish) but it doesn't look as if that's happening. There are plenty of seagulls in WW and PH, but that's a separate timeline. Still, now I feel kind of bad about all the seagulls I aimed at with my cannon in those games, lol
 

The Halloween Captain

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Whoa, what? No, no, that's impossible. It kind of makes sense, but it doesn't at the same time.

Just so you won't ask any questions, I'll sum up in a good sentence why it can't happen: Ganon was never imprisoned in the Twilight Realm in Adult Link's timeline, so he never made any connection with Zant.

If you can make sense of that, then you'll understand why your theory cannot be true.
I don't understand why Zant is in Wind Waker.

Because Wind Waker Ganon is Zant.

When Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm, there was no term for Twilight realm, the concept hadn't been created by Zelda team, so he could have been banished there. However, the real conflict is that the Gerudo were in the Twilight realm before Ganondorf. Technically, because the Gerudo predate Ganon's entrance, we could not have seen the sentencing of Ganondorf from OoT carried out in the TP cutseen. And we know the Gerudo were imprisoned first, because Zant carried their symbol prior to meeting Ganon.
 

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I don't understand why Zant is in Wind Waker.

Because Wind Waker Ganon is Zant.

When Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm, there was no term for Twilight realm, the concept hadn't been created by Zelda team, so he could have been banished there. However, the real conflict is that the Gerudo were in the Twilight realm before Ganondorf. Technically, because the Gerudo predate Ganon's entrance, we could not have seen the sentencing of Ganondorf from OoT carried out in the TP cutseen. And we know the Gerudo were imprisoned first, because Zant carried their symbol prior to meeting Ganon.
No, that just doesn't make sense. In WW, Ganondorf is just chillin' at the bottom the great sea (In old Hyrule) and The Forsaken Fortress. In TP, ganondorf was dumped into the Twilight Realm after a pretty obvious and glaring defeat.

WindWaker Intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEoRavExhfo&feature=related

Pretty self explanatory, Ocarina of Time happens, Ganon get's sealed away, Ganon comes back and kills a bunch of people, Hyrule get's flooded.

Ganondorf's execution (in TP)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVYggDnaJgY

This doesn't tell you anything as other than Gandondorf is chained to a big black rock and regains consciousness just in time to have a glowing sword thrust through his gut. Ganondorf then kills the water sage and the other five sages dump him into the Twilight realm.

Also, it should be noted that Aonuma officially stated that WW and TP happen at the same time in the different Timelines. Thus, Ganondorf is never even aware that the Twilight realm even exists in the WW. In all, this is why I maintain my theory for what happens in between OoT and TP/WW that was posted on the previous page.
 

The Halloween Captain

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I'm not saying it makes sense, and I can't explain it.

However, the Zant in TP is the same person as the Ganon in Wind Waker. His personality is closer to WW ganon than TP ganon's is. They share the same weapons, the same garb, and the same motivations - namely, to create a new world and have dominion of it. The biggest difference between the two is that Zant went mad because he didn't have power.

I really am curious as to how their similarities are possible across multiple timelines.
 

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Oh, I get what your saying, Nintedo probably made the cloths and the weapons the same just as a nod in TP to WW, of course, thier fighting style is completely different. Zant fights with pretty absurd style, one that completely sucks and is only moderately made up for by his ridiculous speed, where as Ganondorf in WW Fights in an almost skillful fashion (I say almost, becuase he was still way to easy to beat). World domination, there's pretty much nothing special about that motivation from a major villain at all. Seriously, everyone wants to control everything. Andross (from Starfox) sets out to conquer and control the Lylat system, Dr. Robotnik wants to rule Mobius, Walmart has already taken over our world, so the fact that both villains happen to want to rule their respective worlds means pretty much nothing.

Another major difference between the two is that Ganondorf in WW, is somewhat sentimental, (I guess being trapped alone in the land you were trying to conquer gives you time to really think about things) where Zant is a completely disrespectful, selfish, lunatic with pretty much no depth as a character.
 

The Halloween Captain

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Oh, I get what your saying, Nintedo probably made the cloths and the weapons the same just as a nod in TP to WW, of course, thier fighting style is completely different. Zant fights with pretty absurd style, one that completely sucks and is only moderately made up for by his ridiculous speed, where as Ganondorf in WW Fights in an almost skillful fashion (I say almost, becuase he was still way to easy to beat). World domination, there's pretty much nothing special about that motivation from a major villain at all. Seriously, everyone wants to control everything. Andross (from Starfox) sets out to conquer and control the Lylat system, Dr. Robotnik wants to rule Mobius, Walmart has already taken over our world, so the fact that both villains happen to want to rule their respective worlds means pretty much nothing.

Another major difference between the two is that Ganondorf in WW, is somewhat sentimental, (I guess being trapped alone in the land you were trying to conquer gives you time to really think about things) where Zant is a completely disrespectful, selfish, lunatic with pretty much no depth as a character.
I disagree with your assessment of Zant. He was (for me) a very interesting character, either driven mad by his desire for retribution in a society that has lost it's will to do anything or born mad, ironically saving him from the pitiful sloth that dominates the twilight realm, once filled with the worst and most violent criminals in all of Hyrule. He was interesting because he shouldn't want to conquer anything, just like all the other twili became passive over the ages. I don't know exactly why he went insane, but the fact that he even had a capacity for madness is in itself amazing, considering what we've seen of the twilight realm.

Actually, I'm not sure what is being assumed timeline wise, but I can't help but wonder why Zant is even in TP. I can't think of a reason Ganondorf needs him even as a pawn, but whatever he was needed for, Ganon was in the Twilight realm for hundreds of years. What makes Zant the only suitable person for a hundred years for Ganondorf's return to the world of light?
 

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I disagree with your assessment of Zant. He was (for me) a very interesting character, either driven mad by his desire for retribution in a society that has lost it's will to do anything or born mad, ironically saving him from the pitiful sloth that dominates the twilight realm, once filled with the worst and most violent criminals in all of Hyrule. He was interesting because he shouldn't want to conquer anything, just like all the other twili became passive over the ages. I don't know exactly why he went insane, but the fact that he even had a capacity for madness is in itself amazing, considering what we've seen of the twilight realm.

Actually, I'm not sure what is being assumed timeline wise, but I can't help but wonder why Zant is even in TP. I can't think of a reason Ganondorf needs him even as a pawn, but whatever he was needed for, Ganon was in the Twilight realm for hundreds of years. What makes Zant the only suitable person for a hundred years for Ganondorf's return to the world of light?
I don't know, Midna had some depth, character-wise. She didn't seem very passive either. For some reason Midna and Zant are the only two Twili characters like this, and they're also the only two Twili characters we get to know lol

Also, Ganondorf used Zant by persuading him to carry out his plans to usurp the throne. He further used Zant's evil ambitions for world domination as a means to escape the Twili Realm when Zant attacked Hyrule. He wouldn't have been able to escape it without Zant.
 

Skrlx

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I really really hate the wind waker look or to the brawl people it's known as the "toon" look.

i'd prefer the NES/SNES look instead of that cell shaded horrific thing

the DS can do better than that.. i mean the DS is supposedly a bit more powerful than the n64
 

The Halloween Captain

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I don't know, Midna had some depth, character-wise. She didn't seem very passive either. For some reason Midna and Zant are the only two Twili characters like this, and they're also the only two Twili characters we get to know lol

Also, Ganondorf used Zant by persuading him to carry out his plans to usurp the throne. He further used Zant's evil ambitions for world domination as a means to escape the Twili Realm when Zant attacked Hyrule. He wouldn't have been able to escape it without Zant.
I thought Zant was also stuck in the twilight realm.
 

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I'm guessing it's a combination of his Twili powers and the powers Ganondorf gave him that allowed him to leave the Realm.
 

Spire

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The only person able to control the connection between the Light World and the Twilight Realm is the ruler of Twilight. Midna was in line for the throne, but Zant, with Ganon's power investment, was able to assume power, and hence, open the gate to Hyrule. That's how he got in, and Ganon knew this, which is why I chose Zant as a "host".
 

The Halloween Captain

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The only person able to control the connection between the Light World and the Twilight Realm is the ruler of Twilight. Midna was in line for the throne, but Zant, with Ganon's power investment, was able to assume power, and hence, open the gate to Hyrule. That's how he got in, and Ganon knew this, which is why I chose Zant as a "host".
That doesn't sound quite right. It would be as if the Hylians/goddesses threw all the worst prisoners into one cell, and gave their elected leader the key.

How evil becomes unleashed is never clear in a Zelda game, you just kinda learn to accept it.
 

Spire

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That doesn't sound quite right. It would be as if the Hylians/goddesses threw all the worst prisoners into one cell, and gave their elected leader the key.

How evil becomes unleashed is never clear in a Zelda game, you just kinda learn to accept it.
To further support my post, the true Ruler of Twilight is the only one able to destroy the Mirror of Twilight. Because Zant was not the true ruler, he was only able to break it in four. Having adopted the power of Ganon, he was able to emulate the power that the true Ruler of Twilight would have, but not to its full potential, as only Midna withheld that power, and hence, why Zant/Ganon transformed her into a weakened imp.

Your theory about Zant being WW Ganon is far, far more obscure and downright wrong than my well-supported theory above.
 

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One flaw I saw in your idea Spire, a couple of pages back, is that you said that the goddesses DECIDED to join the two timelines. How is this possible? More importantly, can they do that? I don't think that the goddesses could manipulate time. They can create matter, since they made Hyrule out of nothing, but there isn't proof that they have the power to control time too. And also, the goddesses didn't create the parallel worlds, but Zelda, and the Ocarina of Time.
 

Spire

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One flaw I saw in your idea Spire, a couple of pages back, is that you said that the goddesses DECIDED to join the two timelines. How is this possible? More importantly, can they do that? I don't think that the goddesses could manipulate time. They can create matter, since they made Hyrule out of nothing, but there isn't proof that they have the power to control time too. And also, the goddesses didn't create the parallel worlds, but Zelda, and the Ocarina of Time.
I believe the Goddesses to be less of beings with consciences, and rather three universal energies that govern the existence of everything, hence, the Triforce, as a relic representative of this universal power. It is dispersed by their will, or more so their nature, to those who must have it. Like my idea suggested, Link, the natural receiver of the Triforce of Courage, was born into a Hyrule without the receivers of the Triforces of Power and Wisdom, Ganon and Zelda respectively. They, inversely, were born into the parallel Hyrule. As a means of maintaining balance and governing all that exists, the Goddesses, or the universal energies of nature brought these worlds together in the course of a stream of bizarre events. My idea suggested that the Triforce was actually split between both parallel worlds.
 

The Halloween Captain

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To further support my post, the true Ruler of Twilight is the only one able to destroy the Mirror of Twilight. Because Zant was not the true ruler, he was only able to break it in four. Having adopted the power of Ganon, he was able to emulate the power that the true Ruler of Twilight would have, but not to its full potential, as only Midna withheld that power, and hence, why Zant/Ganon transformed her into a weakened imp.

Your theory about Zant being WW Ganon is far, far more obscure and downright wrong than my well-supported theory above.
My "theory" is just what I want to be true, and I recognized it as wrong while I was stating it. Not only that, but Midna was selected by the people of the Twilight Realm to lead rather than Zant. In essence, the ruler of twilight is democratically elected from among the worst criminals in the history of Hyrule.

All I really want to understand is why Zant is in WW. I have heard a theory debunking this assertion, saying that WW Ganon is significantly different than Zant, but personally, I feel that the only fundamental difference between the two is that Zant is insane. It bothers me because it doesn't make sense, and yet, WW Ganon and Zant dress the same, are from the same tribe (Gerudo emblem), use the same weapons, and similarly wish to take over Hyrule because they are unsatisfied with where they originated from. Zant is the same person as WW Ganon, but insane. Why are they so similar?
 

Spire

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My "theory" is just what I want to be true, and I recognize it as wrong while I am stating it. Not only that, but Midna was selected by the people of the Twilight Realm to lead rather than Zant. In essence, the ruler of twilight is democratically elected from among the worst criminals in the history of Hyrule.

All I really want to understand is why Zant is in WW. I have heard a theory debunking this assertion, saying that WW Ganon is significantly different than Zant, but personally, I feel that the only fundamental difference between the two is that Zant is insane. It bothers me because it doesn't make sense, and yet, WW Ganon and Zant dress the same, are from the same tribe (Gerudo emblem), use the same weapons, and similarly wish to take over Hyrule because they are unsatisfied with where they originated from. Zant is the same person as WW Ganon, but insane. Why are they so similar?
Please try and understand this. Listen carefully.

Zant is a Twili. Ganondorf is a Gerudo. WW and TP exist simultaneously, in parallel timelines. The Twilight Realm was first introduced when the Dark Interlopers interfered and tried to obtain the Triforce, but were consequently banished to the Twilight Realm. This event occurred before OoT, so it effects both timelines. Midna and Zant exist in both timelines, but are only interacted with in TP because the Twilight Realm is open. In the TP timeline, Ganon was sealed away in the Twilight Realm, but in the WW timeline, he was sealed away in the Sacred Realm. I know you want WW Ganon to be Zant, but that's just impossible.
 

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My "theory" is just what I want to be true, and I recognized it as wrong while I was stating it. Not only that, but Midna was selected by the people of the Twilight Realm to lead rather than Zant. In essence, the ruler of twilight is democratically elected from among the worst criminals in the history of Hyrule.

All I really want to understand is why Zant is in WW. I have heard a theory debunking this assertion, saying that WW Ganon is significantly different than Zant, but personally, I feel that the only fundamental difference between the two is that Zant is insane. It bothers me because it doesn't make sense, and yet, WW Ganon and Zant dress the same, are from the same tribe (Gerudo emblem), use the same weapons, and similarly wish to take over Hyrule because they are unsatisfied with where they originated from. Zant is the same person as WW Ganon, but insane. Why are they so similar?
Ganon and Zant being of the same tribe isn't that improbable. If the criminals of Hyrule were banished to Twilight, then Zant would be a descendant of them. It's quite probable that their outfits are traditional for leaders of the Gerudo, and that this was kept in Twilight to preserve some sort of heritage. Same with the weapons. In the Gerudo Fortress in OoT, the Gerudo guards that you had to fight at each cell all used two swords. This combined with WW Ganon and TP Zant suggests that it's a traditional Gerudo combat form. This to me makes more sense as an explanation for all the similarities. As for their similar desires, as was said before, it's not exactly uncommon among villains of games as well as other media.
 

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Ahh now I know why Zant has the Gerudo symbol on it. Thanks. I would of concluded to it sooner or later but recently I had other time lines to figure out..like the Gundam Time line.
 

Spire

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So too did Veran and Onox bear the Gerudo Symbol on their clothing/armor. Let's take a look at this symbol:



Let's examine what this symbol may actually mean. Look at the middle section. It appears to be two horizontal people merging into one another, perhaps signifying an infinite connection. Seeing as how Ganon, and his minions, Veran, Onox, and Zant all bear this symbol, and all have had a spiritual connection with the Dark Lord, perhaps all who bear the Gerudo symbol - due to its potential symbolic meaning - are actually tied directly with him, and perhaps, are entities created from and represent him.

Look at this history behind those three characters. Veran, Onox, and Zant were all sent to different worlds, Labrynna, Holodrum, and Hyrule respectively, to conquer it, but as part of the ultimate plan behind it all, were sacrificed in one way or another so that Ganon could rise again from death/imprisonment to thwart Link and rule the land.

Symbols aren't created for aesthetics; symbols represent ideas. It's a matter of deciphering them that will lead to great discoveries.
 

The Halloween Captain

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Please try and understand this. Listen carefully.

Zant is a Twili. Ganondorf is a Gerudo. WW and TP exist simultaneously, in parallel timelines. The Twilight Realm was first introduced when the Dark Interlopers interfered and tried to obtain the Triforce, but were consequently banished to the Twilight Realm. This event occurred before OoT, so it effects both timelines. Midna and Zant exist in both timelines, but are only interacted with in TP because the Twilight Realm is open. In the TP timeline, Ganon was sealed away in the Twilight Realm, but in the WW timeline, he was sealed away in the Sacred Realm. I know you want WW Ganon to be Zant, but that's just impossible.
I am well aware that it is impossible for WW Ganon to be Zant. That is the reason why it bothers me that they are too much alike to assume a coincidence. I can even accept that one timeline's Zant is another timeline's Ganon. However, I cannot accept that the two characters are in no way related. Heck, if the WW Ganon and Zant swapped games, the games would play exactly the same right up until their respective final battles, because right up until Zant reveals just how insane he is, he acts exactly the same way WW Ganon would.

If we accept that they are in different timelines, we must establish what causes the two to be parallel to eachother.

off topic - when you say WW and TP occured at the same time, do you mean the flood happened at the same time as TP, or the adventure?
 

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So... I've been thinking, and I noticed that every sidekick that also gave you an ability always had a secret identity. Minish Cap resulted being a Piccori, King of Red Lions resulted being the King of Hyrule, so... who do you think is the train?? :O!!
 

Spire

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The train, I believe (and I've said this a couple times already) is actually the manipulative suit of armor that can change between formswith the help of some sort of item with equal importance to the likes of the Phantom Houglass, which is why the title is not final (they said it may be subject to change from Spirit Tracks).
 

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So do we know that it's one statue that follows Link around? Cause I just assumed it was working like something similar to the Dominion Rod, controlling various statues, only with more options and freedom. Actually, like a cross between the rod and the command song in WW.
 

The Halloween Captain

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The adventure.
Doesn't that conflict directly with the current understanding of Zelda timelines?

Most people attribute TP to be about a hundred years after OoT (child timeline). However, WW is 100 years after Ganon frees himself from his seal in the Sacred realm. Now I may not be correct in my Zelda history, but the only way they could occur simultaneously is if there is a serious misconception about the timeline held by the entire Zelda community, or The King of the Red Lions is somehow the king from OoT. (I vote for the former)
 

The Halloween Captain

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I know you said that. But I'm talking about the IDENTITY. Is he an important character of the plot? Will the revelation of his identity shock you somewhat?
Isn't it a bit early to be speculating?

After all, Link does often recieve a dominion rod. There is no way of knowing what the statue has to do with anything at this time.
 

Scott!

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I know you said that. But I'm talking about the IDENTITY. Is he an important character of the plot? Will the revelation of his identity shock you somewhat?
The train is Navi! It's the long-awaited sequel to MM! Link travels the world in search of his long-lost companion, but he fails. Dejected, he returns to Hyrule only to find that Navi had returned. But she's been cursed! Now, with this revelation, and a mysterious new technology's introduction to Hyrule, Link must uncover this new mystery!

But seriously, I think it's a bit too early to speculate seriously on who this statue is. It might not even be a character; I'm not convinced it's anything more than just random statues you control.
 
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