Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

[The Halloween Captain]

So it's just poetic justice that Ganondorf happened to die shortly after breaking his pact with Zant, and not some predetermined plan by anyone? I'm guessing the scene with Zant was just used to reinforce the retribution then.

Either that, or Zant possesses the triforce of power now. I mean, Ganondorf did lose it right before he died, and Zant was there, and telepathic neck-breaking sounds like a triforce of power type thing.

 

[Scott!]

I just watched the video of the end scene on YouTube, and it made things a bit clearer. In it, Ganon's triforce mark on his hand fades out while he's standing there. Then, after he speaks to Link and Zelda, as he grows weaker, it goes to Zant, who is blurry, along with the background. Their poses imply they're looking at each other, though Zant clearly isn't there, from the other views. Zant seems to look at Ganon before his neck breaks. Instantly, Ganon's eyes turn white, and he dies. It does seem to suggest that Zant dying results in the death of Ganon, somehow. The pact idea does seem to mostly make sense now, considering Ganon lost the Triforce, so he was vulnerable to Zant's powers, and considering the order of how things progressed.

I don't think it was Zant causing Ganon's death though. I think the two of them were connected by the Triforce's power and the pact. I think Zant was being kept alive by its power through Ganon, considering what Link and Midna did to him. Once Ganon lost the Triforce due to the Master Sword's wound, Zant was essentially taken off of life support. Once he died, the pact was broken between them, since Ganon promised immortality. The instant it was broken, Ganon's life was forfeit.

Anything missing there?

 

[Skrah]

^ That made it very clear. Thanks.

Though I really wish that the Twilight zone were explorable. You couldn't even talk to the Twili that you saved. Could have filled in various gaps in the Midna/Zant side of the story.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I just replayed OoT again...

The Desert Collosus Temple is the easiest temple I've ever seen in a Zelda game.

I remember getting lost in it the first time I played...

I don't see how that could have happened because it doesn't really even have puzzles, it forces you to go one way the entire time. It's simple.

I think what happened back then was that I didn't know the snake goddesses face broke off at the end with sunlight and I tried to figure out what to do...

 

[Scott!]

Well, I wouldn't say it's the easiest. It is pretty linear, but to say it doesn't have puzzles... It has them, but they're self-contained within each room for the most part. It's not like the Forest Temple, with finding the ghosts, or the Fire Temple's Goron saving, and trying to get around to above the pillar. It's got its fair share of things, mirror puzzles, torch puzzles, etc.

 

[Ochobobo]

It's not like the Forest Temple, with finding the ghosts, or the Fire Temple's Goron saving, and trying to get around to above the pillar.

and it's certainly no Water Temple.

I don't know about it being the easiest. I'd just chalk it up to you being experienced enough with Zelda dungeons to instinctively know what to do in it now.

 

[Charizard92]

Back on the Zant thing for a sec, When Ganondorf was dying, his triforce piece left him. The last thing he sees is a vision of Zant snapping his neck. This represents The end of his life, and the Zant was just a vision, not the real guy.

 

[Scott!]

Yeah, the Zant bit is implied to have been seen by Ganon. If so, it's a vision, though it's possible that it just is the scene cutting away to show Zant dying, and is blurred to show that he isn't there and also how the magic holding him alive was fading away. Then, once it passes the tipping point, *Snap!*

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I wonder if that means Link would not have been able to defeat Ganondorf if he was at full power...

TP Link must be weaker than OoT Link or Ganondorf is a lot stronger since than.

 

[Skrah]

No. Ganondorf was at full power. What caused the triforce of power to leave him is I believe the Master Sword.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I figured it was Zant's power that was keeping him alive because he needed the power of the Twili, and since Zant's power was fading after his death, Ganondorf's power was weakening.

Also, the scar on his chest allowed a weak point for Link to strike.

 

[Spire]

Regarding the Ganon-Zant death at the end of TP, I have a slightly different view. I believe that Link infact, killed Zant, and upon thrusting the Master Sword into Ganondorf's wound and abolishing him of the Triforce of Power, Zant's soul - connected directly to Ganon's, as the former was needed in order for Ganon to return to the light world - came full circle and finished the execution that the Sages failed at by severing Ganon's only tie to life - Zant's soul, or energy.

Here comes a bizarre theory. It's entirely non-canonical, but I feel the need to write it. So what if....

Zant is the Twilight counterpart to the Water Sage who was killed. Zant rose to power through the help of evil, and inversely, Ralis will rise to power with the help of good. Why Ralis? Well he is Zora - a race directly related to the Water Sage (despite the murdered Water Sage not being Zora). Zant's face somewhat resembles those of the Zora (really farfetched). But most importantly, it is Zant who "fills the shoes" of the missing Water Sage in that he ultimately executes Ganondorf.

That was the absolute stupidest thing I've ever written. But nevertheless, I needed to write it.

ON A MUCH BETTER NOTE, I discovered something long ago in TP that I do not believe I've shared with this thread. Do you guys remember the Hyrule Castle graveyard? Well, there's a key tombstone in this graveyard, which Link is referred to by a nearby tombstone with the message:

"The cursed swordsman... sleeps before... the sacred tree."

Hmmmm.... so who could this "cursed swordsman" be, and why is the looming tree over this grave referred to as the "sacred tree". My hunch is that this "cursed swordsman" is actually:

a) The Hero's Shade
b) The Hero of Time
c) both (a) and (b)

Cursed, of course, because he is destined to be reborn again and again and again. And why is this rather normal looking (yet oh-so-protective) looking tree referred to as the "sacred tree"? Because it's representative of The Great Deku Tree, The Hero of Time's watchful protector. Remember, Link, the Hero of Time may have returned to Hyrule after his Terminian adventure, so this very well may be the grave of our beloved hero.

 

[Ochobobo]

I just had to go rewatch the ending to TP as well, lol.

When Midna leaves, Zelda mentions she believes the goddesses set up the Twili Mirrors beforehand so that they could meet. Going back to our small discussion on gods and goddesses earlier, this would mean that the 3 goddesses can either see into the future or are just extremely good at planning ahead. I still don't know about being able to see into the future though, since they seemed pretty desperate when they had to flood Hyrule in WW.

Placing that mirror in advance would likely mean a way for the good guys to eventually win, even though they gave Ganondorf a Triforce of Power. This sort of reasoning makes it seem like they're just playing a game. Or as the sages said about Ganondorf,

By some divine prank, he, too, had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods.

(lol colors changing in Zelda dialogue)

It really does seem strange that 1 of the goddesses/triforce pieces would constantly be against the other two. Farore, Nayru, and Din always seem to work together, not only in creating Hyrule, but still in the present when Din, the goddess of Power, gave Link (and I guess Zelda for Smash Bros games lolol) Din's Fire. Although that was when Link was a child and before the Triforce split among three different people with very different goals. Perhaps the goddesses kind of stopped being so unified afterwards. I think OoT is the last time when all three goddesses help you.

 

[Spire]

It really does seem strange that 1 of the goddesses/triforce pieces would constantly be against the other two. Farore, Nayru, and Din always seem to work together, not only in creating Hyrule, but still in the present when Din, the goddess of Power, gave Link (and I guess Zelda for Smash Bros games lolol) Din's Fire. Although that was when Link was a child and before the Triforce split among three different people with very different goals. Perhaps the goddesses kind of stopped being so unified afterwards. I think OoT is the last time when all three goddesses help you.

It's peculiar how Ganon ends up on Death Mountain in LoZ. For the sake of solidifying this thesis, I'm going to assume it is the Death Mountain in Eldin province. Ganon, being the wielder of the Triforce of Power was destined to end up in the province governed by the Goddess who he is affiliated with, and more importantly, at the top of this volcanic, perhaps "hellish" mountain -- the tallest land form in Hyrule, overlooking and overshadowing all else. It just kind of works.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

What castle graveyard?

The only one I remember seeing was the one in Karikiko.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I just had to go rewatch the ending to TP as well, lol.

When Midna leaves, Zelda mentions she believes the goddesses set up the Twili Mirrors beforehand so that they could meet. Going back to our small discussion on gods and goddesses earlier, this would mean that the 3 goddesses can either see into the future or are just extremely good at planning ahead. I still don't know about being able to see into the future though, since they seemed pretty desperate when they had to flood Hyrule in WW.

Placing that mirror in advance would likely mean a way for the good guys to eventually win, even though they gave Ganondorf a Triforce of Power. This sort of reasoning makes it seem like they're just playing a game. Or as the sages said about Ganondorf,

(lol colors changing in Zelda dialogue)

It really does seem strange that 1 of the goddesses/triforce pieces would constantly be against the other two. Farore, Nayru, and Din always seem to work together, not only in creating Hyrule, but still in the present when Din, the goddess of Power, gave Link (and I guess Zelda for Smash Bros games lolol) Din's Fire. Although that was when Link was a child and before the Triforce split among three different people with very different goals. Perhaps the goddesses kind of stopped being so unified afterwards. I think OoT is the last time when all three goddesses help you.

It was the great Fairy that gave Link Din's Fire, Not Din herself

 

[Spire]

What castle graveyard?

The only one I remember seeing was the one in Karikiko.

It was part of the last dungeon, Hyrule Castle. You have to burrow under a wall to get access via Wolf Form.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It was part of the last dungeon, Hyrule Castle. You have to burrow under a wall to get access via Wolf Form.

I'm finishing my second playthrough of the game this week.

I'll keep that in mind, Thanks!

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Maybe OoT Link grew out of the wearing green after his adventure in Termina and eventually settled down in Hyrule.

The Shade could be wearing armor because Link could have become a great Hero is Hyrule after returning, and his sword could have been modeled after the Master Sword he wielded in his adventures in the future.

 

[Spire]

I'm finishing my second playthrough of the game this week.

I'll keep that in mind, Thanks!

Awesome. Be sure to check out the particular tombstone and the tree and all that mess.

 

[Spire]

Maybe OoT Link grew out of the wearing green after his adventure in Termina and eventually settled down in Hyrule.

The Shade could be wearing armor because Link could have become a great Hero is Hyrule after returning, and his sword could have been modeled after the Master Sword he wielded in his adventures in the future.

Yeah, these are my thoughts, so it makes perfect sense to me. Also, that would explain why the Biggoron Sword is on display in Hyrule Castle, because Link retired it to those who should protect it.

 

[Ochobobo]

It was the great Fairy that gave Link Din's Fire, Not Din herself

I know, I always thought they were something like close servants of the goddesses to be able to hand out their powers to people.

 

[Skrah]

I had understood that the Triforce is not controlled by the goddesses. In OoT, the Triforce is at the point where the goddesses left Hyrule, and is in the form of an object, I suppose. "He who has a pure heart, Hyrule will become a land of peace. He who had a wicked soul, Hyrule will plunge in darkness." Not exactly the way its said, but its the general idea. So I don´t think that the goddesses give away triforce pieces. Any thoughts on that?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I had understood that the Triforce is not controlled by the goddesses. In OoT, the Triforce is at the point where the goddesses left Hyrule, and is in the form of an object, I suppose. "He who has a pure heart, Hyrule will become a land of peace. He who had a wicked soul, Hyrule will plunge in darkness." Not exactly the way its said, but its the general idea. So I don´t think that the goddesses give away triforce pieces. Any thoughts on that?

Agreed.

By the way, I thought that the ghost-wolf thingy you fight is supposed to be the original Link, with armor and a sword from the very first LOZ.

I could be wrong.

I love how Zelda fans can have this discussion. Imagine trying to connect the dots with Mario games.

Incidently, there is a reference to Luigi's Mansion in Paper Mario 64, in Luigi's diary.

The entry doesn't specifically mention ghosts, but refers to how Luigi will never get his name in the title of his own adventure, which is probably an ironic reference to the Luigi's Mansion Title, which, being a launch game, was probably under developement at the time of Paper Mario.

VC for the win.

 

[Spire]

Agreed.

By the way, I thought that the ghost-wolf thingy you fight is supposed to be the original Link, with armor and a sword from the very first LOZ.

I could be wrong.

I love how Zelda fans can have this discussion. Imagine trying to connect the dots with Mario games.

Incidently, there is a reference to Luigi's Mansion in Paper Mario 64, in Luigi's diary.

The entry doesn't specifically mention ghosts, but refers to how Luigi will never get his name in the title of his own adventure, which is probably an ironic reference to the Luigi's Mansion Title, which, being a launch game, was probably under developement at the time of Paper Mario.

VC for the win.

That theory is far more undetermined than the one I posted, but nevertheless, an interesting one.

And yeah, I appreciate so much the level of detail that Nintendo has provided the Zelda fans with in each subsequent game to that of the Mario series, and others that have no real methods of studying in a narrative fashion. Metroid would be the second most respected in that prospect, but our buddies over in Austin wrote the latest, and deepest editions of the series.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Hopefully, Nintendo will flesh out F-Zero and Star Fox whenever those two games get a new entry. Star Fox got some pleasant plot-increase in Command... but other than that, not much.

Zelda-wise, it's Nintendo's deepest series. No doubt. Though the recent Metroid additions seem to be looking to dethrone Zelda from that position.

 

[Spire]

Hopefully, Nintendo will flesh out F-Zero and Star Fox whenever those two games get a new entry. Star Fox got some pleasant plot-increase in Command... but other than that, not much.

Zelda-wise, it's Nintendo's deepest series. No doubt. Though the recent Metroid additions seem to be looking to dethrone Zelda from that position.

I'd love to see Metroid take over.


But even more so, I'd love to see F-Zero take the reins and fly Nintendo's sled to stardom (this won't happen).

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't care for metroid being deeper than Zelda - Zelda is more fun.

 

[Scott!]

Zelda is more fun than Metroid, yes. But the Prime games (the only ones I've played) are all amazing, though 2 is less so. And Metroid is the type of series that deserves a well-defined backstory and history. It's one of Nintendo's most serious series. It isn't like Mario or Kirby, where each game is just another adventure. They're all related, like Zelda. Fleshing that out a bit more for Metroid would be cool.

However, yes, Zelda is a much higher priority for me. But both should go deeper.

 

[Charizard92]

That and the fact that we all know the Metroid timeline, and the only thing we know about the Zelda timeline is that it exists.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Let's play "Super Mario timeline!"

Only 200 games to catalogue!

We know that Yoshi's Island was first, followed by Yoshi's Island 2. And we Know that Paper Mario comes before Luigi's Mansion. That alone proves that there is a timeline, and we should spend time proving it's order!

 

[Spire]

Let's play "Super Mario timeline!"

Only 200 games to catalogue!

We know that Yoshi's Island was first, followed by Yoshi's Island 2. And we Know that Paper Mario comes before Luigi's Mansion. That alone proves that there is a timeline, and we should spend time proving it's order!

I prefer the Kirby timeline, thank you very much.

Uh...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I wonder if there's a Sonic timeline...

By the way, I hate the review system for those games.

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/wii/sonicandtheblackknight#users

On topic, Zelda has a timeline (supposedly), and the only games truely involved in this timeline appear to be post OoT games. At least, that is the most logically consistent explanation for why every timeline involving pre-OoT games fails in some way.

Also, the Kirby timeline is WAY harder than the Mario timeline. The games don't reference themselves at all, which makes cataloguing them nearly impossible.

 

[Spire]

Also, the Kirby timeline is WAY harder than the Mario timeline. The games don't reference themselves at all, which makes cataloguing them nearly impossible.

Fixed.

But let's get back on topic completely. To solidify things, what do you guys think of my "Hyrule Castle Graveyard" idea? I think it could definitely help shape up the timeline, as it is solid proof of two Links (one dead and in the ground) inhabiting the same Hyrule, as that had not previously been done before. You know what, let's start labeling things in OoT that have carried on in some physical form or another to TP.

Ocarina of Time / Twilight Princess
Hero of Time = Hero's Shade/"Cursed swordsman sleeping under the sacred tree"
Ganondorf = Ganondorf
Dark Sheikah = Twili (shoot me)

Great Deku Tree = Forest Temple
Kokiri = Monkeys
Kokiri Forest = Ordon Village
Lost Woods = Sacred Grove
Sacred Forest Meadow/Forest Temple = Sacred Grove Ruins

Small bridge crossing the Zora's River to get to Kakariko = Larger wooden bridge in Kakariko Gorge
Goron City = Goron Mines (exterior)
Death Mountain Crater/Fire Temple = Goron Mines (interior)

Oh there are too many... you guys can pick this up.

But where in the world did the Shadow Temple disappear to? Obviously, the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Water Temple, and Spirit Temple come back in one form or another (be it renovations, or geographical references), but the Shadow Temple is seemingly replaced by King Zora's grave and pond.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Fixed.

But let's get back on topic completely. To solidify things, what do you guys think of my "Hyrule Castle Graveyard" idea? I think it could definitely help shape up the timeline, as it is solid proof of two Links (one dead and in the ground) inhabiting the same Hyrule, as that had not previously been done before. You know what, let's start labeling things in OoT that have carried on in some physical form or another to TP.

Ocarina of Time / Twilight Princess
Hero of Time = Hero's Shade/"Cursed swordsman sleeping under the sacred tree"
Ganondorf = Ganondorf
Dark Sheikah = Twili (shoot me)

Great Deku Tree = Forest Temple
Kokiri = Monkeys
Kokiri Forest = Ordon Village
Lost Woods = Sacred Grove
Sacred Forest Meadow/Forest Temple = Sacred Grove Ruins

Small bridge crossing the Zora's River to get to Kakariko = Larger wooden bridge in Kakariko Gorge
Goron City = Goron Mines (exterior)
Death Mountain Crater/Fire Temple = Goron Mines (interior)

Oh there are too many... you guys can pick this up.

But where in the world did the Shadow Temple disappear to? Obviously, the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Water Temple, and Spirit Temple come back in one form or another (be it renovations, or geographical references), but the Shadow Temple is seemingly replaced by King Zora's grave and pond.

Well, if we're talking about a period of at least 5,000 or so years, then I would say it was sucked up into the twilight realm with the rest of the Twili. Shadow race, shadow temple, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Spire]

Well, if we're talking about a period of at least 5,000 or so years, then I would say it was sucked up into the twilight realm with the rest of the Twili. Shadow race, shadow temple, it makes a lot of sense.

But Twilight Princess takes place a good 100 or so years after OoT, not 5,000.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

But Twilight Princess takes place a good 100 or so years after OoT, not 5,000.

No, there is no reason to set a timeline by the 100 year method. I might even think that was a mistranslation, because a lot of it (to me) does not make sense in such a short time frame. With that timeframe, the official Zelda timeline interview actually contradicts the laws of physics and the games themselves. Unless evolution in Hyrule is magically enhanced, I'm not buying 100 years.

 

[c3gill]

But where in the world did the Shadow Temple disappear to? Obviously, the Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Water Temple, and Spirit Temple come back in one form or another (be it renovations, or geographical references), but the Shadow Temple is seemingly replaced by King Zora's grave and pond.

The Shadow Temple is said to be UNDER kakariko village in OoT. So going off that, Shadow Temple could be under the graveyard somewhere, or maybe got consumed by the spirit of light?

 

[Skrah]

The spirit temple supposedly was transformed into the Temple where the Twilight Mirror is, right?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The Shadow Temple is said to be UNDER kakariko village in OoT. So going off that, Shadow Temple could be under the graveyard somewhere, or maybe got consumed by the spirit of light?

Shadow temple = Twili temple?