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The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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that this guy said. Hes beatable, so instead of standing around complaining about it, people should be thinking of different ways to counter him.
Why not? The gap between Meta Knight and Snake is so much larger than the gap between Snake and DDD, also with the fact that the latter isn't at its peak in popularity just yet. Also to mention, even if people simply DID pick the next 'best,' (Snake) they'd realize he's much farther away from being pick up and play. (Which MK is)
With DDD?! Make a thread in the DDD board! right now!!
I really, really despise the idea of being in even the remotely same area of thought as people crying ban in anything but lately I've seriously started to wonder about whether this may be one of the valid times...
He really isn't broken per say, but he's in such a league of his own at times that it brings up the question of whether it would be unquestionably a good thing for any kind of competition using this game to just flat out ban the character. Almost every fighter in video game history has had its chosen few who just outmatch the rest in strengths, but it's been rare to come across situations like this where one character is just in so much of a better position than the rest. Even Tekken which is notorious for having huge gaps between the tourney viable and the not so tourney viable tends to have a little more room for variety than it seems like MK is allowing.
I'm not saying I'm for or against banning the character, just that this is really one of those times where I think the whining over the character may actually have some justification. I'm usually very quick to denounce broken-alarm sounding and I have for this game too but I'm starting to rethink things...
At least Snake and a few other characters have some things they can do against MK though, so he's not broken but even with that he's still at a huge advantage over everyone. To me though this isn't a question of whether he's broken or not, it's a question of just how good for this game it would be to just bypass the mess alltogether. At this point though, I'm not entirely sure really if banning a character or not would make all that much of a huge difference.
He really isn't broken per say, but he's in such a league of his own at times that it brings up the question of whether it would be unquestionably a good thing for any kind of competition using this game to just flat out ban the character. Almost every fighter in video game history has had its chosen few who just outmatch the rest in strengths, but it's been rare to come across situations like this where one character is just in so much of a better position than the rest. Even Tekken which is notorious for having huge gaps between the tourney viable and the not so tourney viable tends to have a little more room for variety than it seems like MK is allowing.
I'm not saying I'm for or against banning the character, just that this is really one of those times where I think the whining over the character may actually have some justification. I'm usually very quick to denounce broken-alarm sounding and I have for this game too but I'm starting to rethink things...
At least Snake and a few other characters have some things they can do against MK though, so he's not broken but even with that he's still at a huge advantage over everyone. To me though this isn't a question of whether he's broken or not, it's a question of just how good for this game it would be to just bypass the mess alltogether. At this point though, I'm not entirely sure really if banning a character or not would make all that much of a huge difference.
Morrigan
/!\<br>\¡/
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Until they learn the matchup.
SOVAman
Smash Hero
In XII.E.S.T.I.C.L.E. (4 MKs got top 8) that means that MK is way over used
Niko_K
Smash Master
^^ Thank you. I've always heard that things will only be banned if they heavily influence tournament results....I think that is more than enough proof to show that MK meets that criteria.
Also about the arguments that everyone will start using the next best character *Snake*, Snake has tons of counters and has a very slow aerial game. Though he does have broken range and priority within his tilts, there are a numerous amount of characters whos matchup boards have their character as a neutral or advantage matchup against snake. Not like MK who has no bad matchups and if played properly, is just gay. GAY.
Also about the arguments that everyone will start using the next best character *Snake*, Snake has tons of counters and has a very slow aerial game. Though he does have broken range and priority within his tilts, there are a numerous amount of characters whos matchup boards have their character as a neutral or advantage matchup against snake. Not like MK who has no bad matchups and if played properly, is just gay. GAY.
The only Metaknight's that win tournaments now are the ones from MD/VA, M2K, and now DSF who got his MK style from EC Metaknights. Notice that Azen, Chillin, and now even Chu have gotten to the level where they can beat the best MK's without using MK. That's because they got good at the game and learned how to beat him. Despite that, MK is still the best character obviously, but if multiple people are finding multiple ways to beat a character, there's no room for a ban to be issued.
Just be better.
Just be better.
Also, the reason MK is in most of the rankings is because MK is the easiest character to use. You can be technical and be good with him, or you can just be smart and be good with him. What happens is that people see the results and pick up MK causing MK's metagame to evolve the fastest.
ChronoPenguin
Smash Champion
Are they beating MK by countering him or just be flat out better skill wise?
You could beat Akuma too if Akuma was an idiot.
You could survive a BOA Sin in guild wars too if he was an idiot.
FYI if you need, or it's highly recommended to bring specific counters for 1 character, that character is broken.
You shouldn't need to say "GO DK FOR MK" because if only 1 character is a counter or even balanced with him it's ******'d up.
You could beat Akuma too if Akuma was an idiot.
You could survive a BOA Sin in guild wars too if he was an idiot.
FYI if you need, or it's highly recommended to bring specific counters for 1 character, that character is broken.
You shouldn't need to say "GO DK FOR MK" because if only 1 character is a counter or even balanced with him it's ******'d up.
Niko_K
Smash Master
Also how consistently are they holding MK's back from winning tourneys...I've only heard of one tournament so far xD
Oracle
Smash Master
Maybe he should be banned if the metagame dissolves into pure MK on MK action.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Exactly.... Thank you
Omis
my friends were skinny
Not to be stipid but what is the difference between a ban and a soft ban.
ToP CaT
Smash Lord
thats not likely, even tho falco and fox dominated you still saw people who repped low tiers and did well..no fighting game will ever fall down into one character.
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
that list was not surprising. how many more foxes in a melee tourney will you see than kirby.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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It's not the character I have issues with, it's the people who use him gay. Like, REALLY REALLY GAY.
I KNOW there's ways around tornadoes, but if the MK has half a brain he's not exactly gonna use it from half the stage away, he'll get in close and gay you over.
That, and I have the normal 'no counters blablabla' arguments.
In the end, I know it's all going to boil down to everyone using Metaknight, and even then he won't get banned because by then it'll be seen as everyone using him as the normal thing to do. It's happened to a certain extent already. I mean, look at all those top 8's up there ^^
I'm sure just outside the top 8's were a cluster**** of Metaknights too.
And a softban for the person who was asking is where something's not banned per-se, but people tend not to use them out of respect. People are generally frowned upon if they do things that are soft ban.
I think, anyway.
I KNOW there's ways around tornadoes, but if the MK has half a brain he's not exactly gonna use it from half the stage away, he'll get in close and gay you over.
That, and I have the normal 'no counters blablabla' arguments.
In the end, I know it's all going to boil down to everyone using Metaknight, and even then he won't get banned because by then it'll be seen as everyone using him as the normal thing to do. It's happened to a certain extent already. I mean, look at all those top 8's up there ^^
I'm sure just outside the top 8's were a cluster**** of Metaknights too.
And a softban for the person who was asking is where something's not banned per-se, but people tend not to use them out of respect. People are generally frowned upon if they do things that are soft ban.
I think, anyway.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
"Well, then the opponent also learns the match-up." There's no point in saying that. You can't say learning a match-up means a ban.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Super street fighter 2 with Akuma and Old Sagat says hello.
Snail
Smash Lord
A "hard ban" or just ban means the character just simply can't be played at tournaments. A soft ban is some sort of agreement between all the top players of a game not to play a character to increase diversity in character usage. Soft bans are typically only used in Japan though.
Akuma?
hova
Smash Champion
showing all the high MK placings means nothing, he's just an overused character. how about i list all the tournies where a bunch of Snakes placed high or better yet, show all the MK's that place terribly.
and who asked if the people who beat MK are just better?? what a stupid question; last time i checked the better player should be winning
if you look at that stupid list made by a stupid yoshi player(which he also handpicked certain tourney results) the MKs didn't even won most of the tournies and the it's the same names over and over. when random scrubs suddenly start winning just because they use MK, then we have a problem
you are all bad
and who asked if the people who beat MK are just better?? what a stupid question; last time i checked the better player should be winning
if you look at that stupid list made by a stupid yoshi player(which he also handpicked certain tourney results) the MKs didn't even won most of the tournies and the it's the same names over and over. when random scrubs suddenly start winning just because they use MK, then we have a problem
you are all bad
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
listen. in a year there will be plenty of ways around MK. people will probably figure out that when mk is in the air he can do a shuttle loop and kill you. so you airdodge when you expect it. lawls. ill say it again most people just dont know the matchup yet.
Snail
Smash Lord
I can't imagine people NOT knowing the MK matchup because in any tournament about half the people you'll fight will play Meta Knight...
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
it doesn't matter if they place terribly.
there wee people who used Akuma and Old Sagat. You will always have alot more n00bs losing than you do pros winning.
Show all the snake, Sonic, ZSS, metaknight, Falco, pikachu, Lucario that do poorly.
All that matters is who is winning.
True but the point is how much better did the other player have to be?
you would NEVER I repeat NEVER see a scrubby Akuma winning or a scrubby Old Sagat.
They would get crushed and laughed at, did this make those characters any less broken? no.
In fact MK is more towards old Sagat then Akuma, because while he doesn't win all the tournaments (though he has won much more than everyone else) he causes the amount fo viable characters to drop severely.
you are all bad[/QUOTE]
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
exactly. if so many play metaknight then his moves will be learned and counters will come up. its that simple. it happened in melee. only playing vs a MK will people learn how to beat them. the same goes for any char. only playing vs a rob will teach you how to beat him.
Snail
Smash Lord
Strangely, MK's tournament wins have only been going upwards, now exceeding Snake's. The game has been out for 6 months, and unless something drastically changes, I don't see this changing anywhere soon.
Learning how to beat certain characters means learning about their weaknesses and how to abuse them. It won't work because MK has no weaknesses. You can learn all the frame data and knockback and chaingrab percentages you like, but there's no way around MK besides simply being a better player than your opponent.
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
and the better player wins tournements. its all a learning process.
also this game isnt streetfighter 2. these 2 games opperate differently.much,much differently.
also this game isnt streetfighter 2. these 2 games opperate differently.much,much differently.
Foxtrotter
Smash Journeyman
But what we're dealing with is the same problem: should we or shouldn't we ban a character?
Akuma, maybe even Old Sagat were in the same position a while ago as Meta Knight. Communities were debating whether or not a supposedly "overpowered" character should be banned.
Also, found this while surfing the earlier parts of this thread. It's part of the "Play to Win" essay, and this part deals with what should be banned.
Snail
Smash Lord
The better player doesn't always win, especially not in Brawl. You can play the best Captain Falcon in the world, if your opponent plays a half-decent MK you're not going to win. Simple as that.
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
from the playing to win essay, "Criteria of a Ban
A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted."
i know a lot of players use mk and win but those same players were beaten by kirbys, GaWs, and lucarios. this is shown in that list a few pages back.
A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted."
i know a lot of players use mk and win but those same players were beaten by kirbys, GaWs, and lucarios. this is shown in that list a few pages back.
Actually, its more of those players were beaten by A SINGLE Lucario, A SINGLE Kirby, and a SINGLE GaW. Some of the time.
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
then doesnt it show that mk is not by any means impossible?
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
To me it seems like Metaknight is in the same position as Old Sagat. He's not significantly above everyone else to the point that he's unbeatable (though he is definately a cut above the rest), but he does severly limit the number of viable characters. In a way, this reminds me of Shiek in melee. The only difference though, is that Shiek still had a tough time against the space animals, which there were certainly a lot of in the average tournament. So in comparison to Metaknight's popularity now, Shiek was not played as much and thus didn't have as much of an effect (though it was definately still there). Basically, if you had a decent matchup against Fox and Marth, you could deal with having a bad Shiek matchup, as you wouldn't see her as often. But if you have a bad matchup against Metaknight, you pretty much have to switch characters (unless you're leaps and bounds above them in skill level).
My 2 cents? I think a hard ban is a bit much at this point, but I certainly wouldn't mind a soft ban on him, just to cut the number of Metaknights in tournaments.
My 2 cents? I think a hard ban is a bit much at this point, but I certainly wouldn't mind a soft ban on him, just to cut the number of Metaknights in tournaments.
Or it could just show that those players were much better than their opponents, or that their character doesn't have a large disadvantage against him, so they only had to be a little better to even out the matchup.
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
things like MK infinite cape stall that should be banned and it is.
"Glitches so extreme that they undeniably end or prevent gameplay are worthy of being banned."
thats from the playing to win thing and its true. infinite cape prevents anything to be done to mk, therefor should be banned. MK himself is not impossible to beat. he doesnt prevent characters from winning cause you can still beat him.
"Glitches so extreme that they undeniably end or prevent gameplay are worthy of being banned."
thats from the playing to win thing and its true. infinite cape prevents anything to be done to mk, therefor should be banned. MK himself is not impossible to beat. he doesnt prevent characters from winning cause you can still beat him.
Doggalina
Smash Lord
Metaknight is NOT analogous to Akuma. He's closer to Old Sagat. Akuma was designed to be TOO GOOD. He had a move that broke the game.
Does this mean that MK shouldn't be banned? Not necessarily. Here's how I think we should go about it. Some people should start hosting MK-free tourneys or at least side tourneys at larger tourneys. See if DDD or Snake start dominating the MK-free scene (I doubt they will). Then we'll have some actual tournament evidence as to whether or not MK hurts the scene.
Does this mean that MK shouldn't be banned? Not necessarily. Here's how I think we should go about it. Some people should start hosting MK-free tourneys or at least side tourneys at larger tourneys. See if DDD or Snake start dominating the MK-free scene (I doubt they will). Then we'll have some actual tournament evidence as to whether or not MK hurts the scene.
psykoplympton
Smash Ace
they shopuld have a captain falcon only tourny and see who wins.
Niko_K
Smash Master
I'm running an MK free tournament up here fairly soon
SOVAman
Smash Hero
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