Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Foodies]

Why would you need to reverse counter? Does it not react to whatever side you were hit from anyway?

In Brawl if you ledgejumped reverse countered, 1 of 2 things usually happened: 1, your opponent hits you, the counter works, yay. 2, your opponent doesn't do anything, and because you reversed your momentum you grab the ledge again, so it was safe when used every so often. Of course it's not as good in Smash 4 because there's no ledge invincibility refresh, but having the extra option to reverse your momentum to throw your opponent off still is a good thing. Even though it's not as applicable in this game, rip.

Anyway, I was mainly asking from a "knowledge" point of view rather than if it was actually going to be useful or not in gameplay heh.

 

[eveningninja]

Question: Can Marth wavebounce at all, like with his Side-B for example?

 

[fox67890]

I pretty sure that the only specials that can be B-reversed are neutral- B specials (shield-breaker in Marth's case). That applies to all characters, not just Marth. I know what you mean about the B-reversed counter from the ledge though in brawl. Twas' cool and useful~

 

[Random4811]

I pretty sure that the only specials that can be B-reversed are neutral- B specials (shield-breaker in Marth's case). That applies to all characters, not just Marth. I know what you mean about the B-reversed counter from the ledge though in brawl. Twas' cool and useful~

Not true. Up B can also be B reversed.

 

[Shaya]

You're right, counter can't be b-reversed at all.
There are specials like that in the game. I probably had realised marth was one of them but forgot.

Losing wavebounce counter actually sucks. A nerf I hadn't even really thought about.

In previous games and this game still I believe, there are counter hurtboxes that need to be hit. Marth's front feet were a blindspot. If you were coming in from the air and countered facing forwards, you weren't going to have much luck against anyone doing most attacks. B-reversing would mean that blind spot wasn't an issue as the back feet weren't one.

Definitely can still b-reverse DB, Up-B and shieldbreaker.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Marth was nerfed even more than we thought. classic.

(I never heard of the reverse counter before tho, but I didn't play Brawl competitively so yeah)

 

[Honor]

Not related specifically to Marth, but what role do custom moves play in Smash 4? They are disabled when you play online and I have yet to make it to a tourney. Have they been allowed at any tourneys yet?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Not related specifically to Marth, but what role do custom moves play in Smash 4? They are disabled when you play online and I have yet to make it to a tourney. Have they been allowed at any tourneys yet?

Few tourneys allow them, although it's getting a bit more popular now to allow them because EVO (the biggest smash tournament yet) will have them on, and that will be held on July 17th, and some people are making tourneys where customs are allowed in preparation for EVO.

 

[eveningninja]

Okay thanks guys. So in order to b-reverse DB, Up-B and shieldbreaker, how would one go about doing that? Just the same as you would with any other character? What are the controller inputs? I'm actually kind of a n00b at b-reversals/bouncing in general. I've only really successfully b-reversed with ZSS in 1/2 speed in training mode.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Okay thanks guys. So in order to b-reverse DB, Up-B and shieldbreaker, how would one go about doing that? Just the same as you would with any other character? What are the controller inputs? I'm actually kind of a n00b at b-reversals/bouncing in general. I've only really successfully b-reversed with ZSS in 1/2 speed in training mode.

You just gotta practice until you do it perfectly. B-reversing shieldbreaker is really easy (easier than running b-reverse needles on sheik at least) and the trick is pressing B but immediately flicking to the opposite direction on the joystick. Not as you press B, but immediately afterwards

 

[chococrow]

how do i beat a good zss i feel i have no chance

 

[Crawfish]

is marth vs megaman literally impossible

 

[Random4811]

is marth vs megaman literally impossible

No, its not. Its just really hard

 

[Shaya]

how do i beat a good zss i feel i have no chance

You kinda don't.
Sorry ;\
ZSS has grab and up-b as guaranteed out of shield punishes on every single one of Marth's moves, with legitimately no exception.
I'm sure there's tons of things that could be done to improve how your games go against one, but I would say it's one of the toughest match ups Marth has.

is marth vs megaman literally impossible

I've barely lost that match up in person. Texas has a lot of megaman players/mains too.
Being able to sh air dodge through lemons into fair/uair is godlike against him. We outspace his tools otherwise by a lot. He has issues landing.

 

[Random4811]

You kinda don't.
Sorry ;\
ZSS has grab and up-b as guaranteed out of shield punishes on every single one of Marth's moves, with legitimately no exception.
I'm sure there's tons of things that could be done to improve how your games go against one, but I would say it's one of the toughest match ups Marth has.



I've barely lost that match up in person. Texas has a lot of megaman players/mains too.
Being able to sh air dodge through lemons into fair/uair is godlike against him. We outspace his tools otherwise by a lot. He has issues landing.

Its hard when you don't know the MU especially. I've learned it more recently due to a friend who is a megamain, so I think Im a little better at it. Its still hard for me tho

And Samus' Up B isnt guaranteed, it can be DI'd out of. Now, Samus can adjust her angle along with you to catch your DI if I remember correctly, but it is by no means guaranteed, just as much as Fthrow to Crescent isnt guaranteed. ZSS requires a really strong neutral and really smart plays by Marth to win the MU. Its really hard. Even a bad Zamus has avantage over Marth. My old sparring partner (he's been far too busy to play and only has 3DS so he has trouble keeping up) loses pretty easily to me as his Sonic or even his Ness, but I struggle a little against his ZSS.

also, I know you've all probably seen it, but Marth ranked 27th on the Anther's "tier list" that they released last month. He was ranked in the top

You kinda don't.
Sorry ;\
ZSS has grab and up-b as guaranteed out of shield punishes on every single one of Marth's moves, with legitimately no exception.
I'm sure there's tons of things that could be done to improve how your games go against one, but I would say it's one of the toughest match ups Marth has. 52.9% of the cast, and thats just based on pure results from the ladder itself.

 

[Crawfish]

i have a better time playing good zss' than i do megamans. i guess it's just a matchup thing

 

[GhettoNinja]

Yes I'm quite aware that smash 4 marth is considered worse then before but I never played him before because he was high teir to begin with. So I was wondering if there's anything major I should know about him like things that just don't work anymore and any habits I should get rid of and finally any new tech I absolutely need to learn for him...I've already realized his u-tilt has lots its combo ability and the Ken Combo isn't a guaranteed kill anymore..

 

[Quickhero]

Playing really aggressive in-general doesn't work. Marth punishes well but is easily punished back if you screw up. You can't abuse f-air to wall that well anymore due to the amount of landing lag Marth has on all his aerials. (Especially d-air) MAKE sure you abuse the tippers mechanic, and get good at frame trapping. :3 F-Smash hits like a truck this game, but it requires frame trap to really hit it at all and it's REALLY punishing if you whiff, so don't spam it.

If using custom moves, Marth has access to a horizontal recovery that is amazing at comboing (especially from f-throw to CS generally from 0%-60% except for like Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff) so also keep that in mind.

He's been heavily nerfed, but he is still has the tools to be very formidable, but you have to take the time and play with him a lot. There are many easier characters that aren't as risky so if you're easily demotivated it's best to just swap characters. If you do decide to stay though, welcome! Marth becomes better with custom moves on and he still has strings and combos that are rewarding (just generally not as rewarding as characters like Diddy Kong) and with moves like Dashing Assault and CS there are plenty true combos, some that can even transition to kill-confirms!

 

[Locuan]

@ GhettoNinja I moved your post to the Q&A Thread. Please utilize this thread whenever you have questions such as these.

 

[Xisin]

I don't think ZSS is that bad @ Shaya >_> maybe im missing something but her grab is very punishable, and if you knock her out her flip kick she loses it no? her up b is a terrible recovery otherwise, of course she still has tether but only horizontally right? You don't have to approach with an aerial though and can mix that up a bit with sheildbreakers or any other mixups that every char has like the good ole short hop nothing to grab or dtilt. (will be punished if messed up obv) But I don't think its unwinnable by a long shot. Take her to battlefield work on getting her off the stage or in the air or on the platforms. The higher ceiling there helps you more than it does her, and i think the platforms benefit marth just as much if not more than zss. Never met a ZSS yet not willing to go to to bf with me. (or anyone really marth gets so much disrespect this game.)

 

[Emblem Lord]

is marth vs megaman literally impossible

Online you wont win.

Offline the match is a ton of fun. The better player will win. Megaman can't land for **** just as Shaya said.

 

[Shaya]

@ Xisin

As I said, punishes. ZSS has no reason to over exert in the match up. If you're in the air while she's on the ground you're boned, she will **** you up for landing 90% of the time and will **** you 100% of the time if you aerial her shield. Moves on the ground? They're all shield grabbable by ZSS except very well spaced dtilt, but instead she has dash attack that will cover 2/3 options you have after dtilt. Her tilts outpace and outspace Marths a lot of the time.
She has single options that will cover 90% of yours in 99% of the situations that will happen.
Flip Jump is like the bane of Marth's existence (at least for me as someone who has more experience in Marth vs ZSS in Brawl than any other match up), in Brawl back air clearly beat it / all the options from it, if you hit her while she was invincible hitlag would occur that would still snag her once she got out of it. The footstool jump and her kicks beat beat most of Marth's options in this game bar the obvious shields or ever-ready up smash.


Up-B is a magical thing. You getting out of it has more to do with the starting position of ZSS more so than your "DI". ZSS has three directions she moves in with her up b, she can alter it at every hit, if you're on top of ZSS then she doesn't have the same 3 degrees of control and you can fall out just by moving into her.
But in general, people trying to DI out when I know they cannot is how I get significantly earlier kills with it than proper DI of the final hit would do. When I'm playing against ZSS I'm respecting it (although I could pop out a lot of the time) just so I'm not dying sub 90% but rather at the 110%+.

Marth isn't the type of character who easily falls out of it either (Greninja and Little Mac plz)

 

[Xisin]

Maybe I'm not playing the right ZSS then because the way you write it, you think its unwinnable. I haven't seen proof of it yet though. I believe you but would like to see it.

 

[Shaya]

It's one of Marth's hardest match ups for sure. Probably worse than Sheik.
ZSS has everything Sheik has in this match up bar a regular shield grab/her fair except comes with significantly harder punishes (well there's needle camping too, but honestly I just see that as rage tipper fuel and chip damage from zairs, nairs, paralyzer add up).
The regular shield grab doesn't actually matter due to how laggy Marth's moveset is.

 

[Emblem Lord]

After reanalyzing the match I honestly think it might be unwinnable. I'm rethinking my matches with Nairo and I'm like..what could I have done better? I didn't attack because I knew he could punish me hard. But not attacking gives her control so its like...wtf does Marth do?

Then it hit me...he loses. Thats what he does.

I don't fear her up-b. Nairo didn't kill me with it even once, IIRC. It was everything else that she has that steamrolled me. I do not feel that same sense of helplessness vs Diddy. Not even vs Jtails.

It's prolly 7-3 her favor which would mean Marth really is not viable even with customs. I don't even feel like Sheik or Diddy have 7-3 over Marth so thats saying something if ZSS does imo.

 

[Honor]

^ I watched the match and noticed that you had customs moves on. If tournaments are going to move in that direction do you think that there will be one set of customs that Marth's should stick with? Or do you think it will be a MU thing? For example it seems to me that I would always want Crescent Slash, you seems to be able to do more with it out of grabs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you don't have Crescent Slash on then you aren't a serious competitive Marth.

Period.

 

[ItsKaden]

I've got a question: I'm very new to Smash (I started playing about 2 months ago) and I've been using Marth ever since I first started playing. I really haven't fought ANY good Marth players at all. And I was hoping a really good Marth could show me what's possible with this character. If somebody could play a few matches with me my NNID is: ItsKadenn. I'll be on all weekend so just tell me.

 

[Honor]

Crescent Slash is a given then, sweet! I'll make sure to play with it from now on and get it down!

How about Dancing Blade options? Is Effortless Blade or Heavy Blade worth even toying with? Are they a MU thing?

Same question for which counter? (Though I assume the weak counter is not worth using at all)

 

[Locuan]

I was hoping a really good Marth could show me what's possible with this character. If somebody could play a few matches with me my NNID is: ItsKadenn. I'll be on all weekend so just tell me.

This thread is great for finding other Marth's to play against:
http://smashboards.com/threads/power-of-anris-legacy-marcina-sparring-thread.392682/

 

[ItsKaden]

This thread is great for finding other Marth's to play against:

Thank you

 

[Quickhero]

Crescent Slash is a given then, sweet! I'll make sure to play with it from now on and get it down!

How about Dancing Blade options? Is Effortless Blade or Heavy Blade worth even toying with? Are they a MU thing?

Same question for which counter? (Though I assume the weak counter is not worth using at all)

Effortless Blade is like Weak Counter, weak and has little reward. Heavy Blade has way too much lag between moves that the only way you will be able to kill with it is if your opponent doesn't see it coming at all. Aka it's a gimmick and DB's mix-up potential is much more preferred.

Iai Counter is generally the best counter due to it's increased power and that it sends the opponent in the opposite direction. However it is VERY strict so make sure you take note of that.

 

[Honor]

Thanks Hero!!

So what I'm getting is that you should always use: Crescent Slash, Dancing Blade, and Iai Counter.

 

[Quickhero]

Thanks Hero!!

So what I'm getting is that you should always use: Crescent Slash, Dancing Blade, and Iai Counter.

There are niche uses for normal Counter, such as the fact that you can counter moves such as Villager's U-Smash and not get hit since you don't move, but for the most part, yeah.

Dolphin Jump apparently works great versus full EBT spam Villagers, but I haven't been able to utilize it properly against those type of Villagers and versus actual Villager players Crescent Slash does a lot of work so idk.

 

[Honor]

Lol like an idiot I forgot to ask which shield breaker. I saw Emblem Lord using the one that propels you farther forward. Is that a MU based thing? Hopefully this will clear up my custom ignorance for the time being

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

So, I've been getting into competitive doubles and I really enjoy using Marth in them. My partner uses C Falcon, and, as flashy and illogical as that sounds, it actually works decently enough. Falcon is constantly moving, keeping the opponents moving along with him, while Marth moves more slowly and calculated and allows for set ups. For instance, Falcon can fox-trot-->dash-grab, slide like he does after a dash-grab into Marth, who can tipper an F-smash on the grabbed opponent. The do crazy stuff like this constantly, and we love finding new ridiculous ways to disrespect our opponents into oblivion. That said, I pose a question (a few, actually):
1. Is Marth good in doubles?
2. Is Greasy Feet Falcon a good partner? If not, who do you recommend?
3. What can you picture Marth being capable of in doubles? What can you picture Marth being capable of paired with Falcon?

Anything you have to say helps. Thanks.

 

[Langston777]

i don't have a lot of experience in competitive doubles, but i've tried Cap/Marth a few times with a friend and its a lot of fun. not an ideal team, but worrying about a spacing character AND a character with ridiculous punish game like Falcon can be tough to deal with. what you lack is good recovery, projectiles, and you play two characters that get eaten up by juggles and combos (more so falcon than marth b/c of DS and faster aerials). however you have amazing potential kill power and all the style in the world.

i definitely think marth has his potential in doubles. depending on who you're working with you can make good use of upsmash
http://webmshare.com/GXdY1
and other tippered moves, just as long as you practice and know your teammate's throw arcs and whatnot

unfortunately, marth is a very precise character that can be difficult to control/focus with when playing in hectic doubles. you'll need to be even more precise than usual in doubles. but, he definitely has his rewarding perks like anyone else.

also, don't ****ing use Marth in online dubs.
don't do it ok

 

[cerealkiller]

I have a question: Samus is the only character I absolutely know I'm gonna loose against. However, I rarely ever see this MU mentioned (unlike Shiek, ZSS, Sonic, Diddy, etc...). So, am I the only one who really struggles against Samus?

I never rage quit but when I see a Samus showing up I consider it now...lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's just you.

She doesn't have the tools to even play her keepaway game effectively.

So there must be something about that match you are struggling with.

 

[Zorai]

Quick question: who do you think has an easier time vs Villager - Marth or Wario?