Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Locuan]

The Marth Q&A Thread​

Welcome everyone to the Marth Q&A thread. Do you have a question regarding Marth that you need answered? Feel free to ask them here and others who own the game will be able to help you out!

FAQs:
This portion of the Thread will be updated to indicate the questions that have already been answered. Questions will be shown in this color, while answers will be shown in this color. Please refer to this post first in case that your question has been answered already.

@Los4Muros asked:

I'm trying to learn how to play with Marth (never mained him before), how does the Dancing Blades work? If I tap the buttons to fast, the combo stops or all of the sudden a Shield Breaker comes out instead.

@LoreLes answered:

Dancing blade comes out fast but you're probably messing up because of the hitstun it gives off. If you tap too fast Marth will just stop and you will have buffered either SB or Up B by what you're saying. Just push the button like a few frames after the initial hits.

@ Ekans647 asked:

1: How much has Marth's range been nerfed since melee?

2: How much has Marth's range been nerfed from brawl?

3: What are some uses and opportunities for Dancing Blade?

3: What strokes of Dancing Blade should be used and when?

5: How does the difference in sword mechanics affect the playstyles of Marth & Lucina? Are their playstyles similar or does Lucina play differently from Marth?

6: What advantages does Marth Have over Lucina?

7: What advantages does Lucina have over Marth?

@ Locuan answered:

These questions are great @ Ekans647 ! We are all here to help. The more questions the better! I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability. If anyone sees me make a mistake feel free to correct me.

1. I do not know the answer to this question.
2. @ Shaya has a great post regarding the differences between Brawl and Smash 4 Marth in the Marth Data Thread. Here you can find their differences in frame data as well as differences in individual moves Reach. However, Shaya mentions there is a difference between reach and range. Care to expand on this Shaya? For most of his moves though, Marth has more Reach than he did in brawl. To view this data please click here.
3. There are a lot of uses for Dancing Blade. One of the most well known are to catch opponents rolls. However, you can use DB in d-tilt traps, after baiting an airdodge and so much more. In fact, @EternalFlame has whole sections dedicated to Dancing Blade in his guide. To view this guide please click here. The Dancing Blade information can be found in Section 2 and Section 3 of the guide. EternalFlame if you would like to expand on this feel free!
4. You will probably find the answer for this question by viewing the guide I posted above!
5. Their play-styles are inherently similar. They are both characters that need to have great spacing. If not their opponent will capitalize on incorrectly spaced moves. For this, and other reasons, Marth is known to be the superior of both characters because his tipper mechanics give a clear reward for spacing correctly.
6. You can see the differences between Marth and Lucina in the thread that is pinned to the Lucina boards. Click here to access the thread. I recommend to read this thread. If you do not understand some of the math feel free to ask again here or in the Marth General Thread and I am sure either I or someone else will be able to help. In general though, Marth has mostly all of the advantages over Lucina, tipper mechanics, his attacks are safer to throw against opponents shields due to shield hit-lag modifiers, his jab has more knock-back etc. However, with the perfect pivot mechanic, it seems Lucina is able to retain momentum in some of her tilts while perfect pivoted, while Marth cannot. I have tested this and it seems to be the case.

And that covered a lot of ground! I hope this can help you out.

@ Shaya clarifies the differences between Reach and Range:

Reach = disjoint. People tend to think of range as horizontal or vertical distances, but that's not what I'm trying to say when I can vouch for Marth's moves having more 'reach', the hitboxes in relation to his sword are going further than they do in Brawl, but for all we know Marth could be stepping significantly less forward when he attacks in comparison to other games. But seeing as Marth's priority is mainly based around his disjoints, the range stuff (if there are differences) just require adjustments by the player.

@ Ekans647 asked:

What exactly is a disjoint? Also, what's buffering?

@ Shaya answered:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

@ Altea77 asked:

So many people online just play as characters with projectiles and then roll spam away whenever i get close enough to attack. How do you beat these people?

@ Locuan answered:

Depending on the projectile, you may be able to clash/cancel them out with your jab, or Fair. For example, projectiles such as Link's boomerang and arrows fall under this category. Marth also has the nifty ability to auto cancel his air dodge if you input it as soon as you short hop. This can be used to evade projectiles and in some cases approach your opponent. You can also spot-dodge, shield, or roll to evade or block projectiles. A good opponent will mix up how he/she uses their projectile arsenal. You will respond to projectiles with one of the options above depending on the situation.

I recommend reading the section "Dealing with projectiles" from Emblem Lord's thread. Click here to access the thread.

@ Sir_Africa asked:

Hey guys really quick about Marth's sweetspot with his dair. What is the sweespot exactly for the spike? Is it just directly below Marth or a little bit in front and below? I can never get it consistently right.

@ Locuan answered:

@ Sir_Africa :

Down Air
6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on sourspot, 90° on tipper, 270° on spike
11 / 13 / 14 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 / 1.0 Hit lag modifier
Hits 9-14. Meteor Smash hitbox on frame 11 centered on body
Ends frame 59; 28 frames on landing 3-54

Data from the following thread.

@ gByron asked:

What are Marth's advantages over Pit?

@ Zano replied:

pit/darkpit are better characters than marth overall, yeah. Marth does pretty much outrange them overall, but they have better followups off grabs that last til higher %s and get better juggles than he does, plus they do have a projectile which is nice even if it's a pretty w/e projectile that is used more for conditioning than damage. Kill power wise, pit/dark pit fsmash can kill super early, but a tipper fsmash from marth can kill even earlier, although it's obviously much harder to land, so really in the end kill powerwise marth isn't much better off.

Both are great characters at edgeguarding, but marth has to commit much harder than pit since he doesn't have multiple jumps or an up b that goes nearly as far, plus when it comes to recovering vertically, pits side b can usually let him get to the ledge safely with super armor so if it came down to one edgeguarding the other, pit would basically have to screw up his super armor timing or be recovering low for marth to capitalize while pit just has to bait out a counter or fair.

@ Shaya replied:

But yeah, Pits are more solid due to grab game, aerial auto cancels, better dash attack and recovery. But Marth has pretty good damage and finds it easier to get the kill IMO (Up Smash hits on the ground, can tipper, forward tilt tipper is pretty great, up b out of shield/dash, up throw at the same percent fthrow kills near/around the ledge).

Legitimately, Marth's up throw being a relatively reliable kill move with rage is a huge ticket to his ability in tournament, unless he dies first, then he's ****ed.

 

[Ekans647]

I have a couple questions.

1: How much has Marth's range been nerfed since melee?

2: How much has Marth's range been nerfed from brawl?

3: What are some uses and opportunities for Dancing Blade?

3: What strokes of Dancing Blade should be used and when?

5: How does the difference in sword mechanics affect the playstyles of Marth & Lucina? Are their playstyles similar or does Lucina play differently from Marth?

6: What advantages does Marth Have over Lucina?

7: What advantages does Lucina have over Marth?

Thanks. Sorry if some of these questions are out of place.

 

[Locuan]

These questions are great @ Ekans647 ! We are all here to help. The more questions the better! I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability. If anyone sees me make a mistake feel free to correct me.

1. I do not know the answer to this question.
2. @ Shaya has a great post regarding the differences between Brawl and Smash 4 Marth in the Marth Data Thread. Here you can find their differences in frame data as well as differences in individual moves Reach. However, Shaya mentions there is a difference between reach and range. Care to expand on this Shaya? For most of his moves though, Marth has more Reach than he did in brawl. To view this data please click here.
3. There are a lot of uses for Dancing Blade. One of the most well known are to catch opponents rolls. However, you can use DB in d-tilt traps, after baiting an airdodge and so much more. In fact, @EternalFlame has whole sections dedicated to Dancing Blade in his guide. To view this guide please click here. The Dancing Blade information can be found in Section 2 and Section 3 of the guide. EternalFlame if you would like to expand on this feel free!
4. You will probably find the answer for this question by viewing the guide I posted above!
5. Their play-styles are inherently similar. They are both characters that need to have great spacing. If not their opponent will capitalize on incorrectly spaced moves. For this, and other reasons, Marth is known to be the superior of both characters because his tipper mechanics give a clear reward for spacing correctly.
6. You can see the differences between Marth and Lucina in the thread that is pinned to the Lucina boards. Click here to access the thread. I recommend to read this thread. If you do not understand some of the math feel free to ask again here or in the Marth General Thread and I am sure either I or someone else will be able to help. In general though, Marth has mostly all of the advantages over Lucina, tipper mechanics, his attacks are safer to throw against opponents shields due to shield hit-lag modifiers, his jab has more knock-back etc. However, with the perfect pivot mechanic, it seems Lucina is able to retain momentum in some of her tilts while perfect pivoted, while Marth cannot. I have tested this and it seems to be the case.

And that covered a lot of ground! I hope this can help you out.

 

[Ekans647]

These questions are great @ Ekans647 ! We are all here to help. The more questions the better! I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability. If anyone sees me make a mistake feel free to correct me.

1. I do not know the answer to this question.
2. @ Shaya has a great post regarding the differences between Brawl and Smash 4 Marth in the Marth Data Thread. Here you can find their differences in frame data as well as differences in individual moves Reach. However, Shaya mentions there is a difference between reach and range. Care to expand on this Shaya? For most of his moves though, Marth has more Reach than he did in brawl. To view this data please click here.
3. There are a lot of uses for Dancing Blade. One of the most well known are to catch opponents rolls. However, you can use DB in d-tilt traps, after baiting an airdodge and so much more. In fact, @EternalFlame has whole sections dedicated to Dancing Blade in his guide. To view this guide please click here. The Dancing Blade information can be found in Section 2 and Section 3 of the guide. EternalFlame if you would like to expand on this feel free!
4. You will probably find the answer for this question by viewing the guide I posted above!
5. Their play-styles are inherently similar. They are both characters that need to have great spacing. If not their opponent will capitalize on incorrectly spaced moves. For this, and other reasons, Marth is known to be the superior of both characters because his tipper mechanics give a clear reward for spacing correctly.
6. You can see the differences between Marth and Lucina in the thread that is pinned to the Lucina boards. Click here to access the thread. I recommend to read this thread. If you do not understand some of the math feel free to ask again here or in the Marth General Thread and I am sure either I or someone else will be able to help. In general though, Marth has mostly all of the advantages over Lucina, tipper mechanics, his attacks are safer to throw against opponents shields due to shield hit-lag modifiers, his jab has more knock-back etc. However, with the perfect pivot mechanic, it seems Lucina is able to retain momentum in some of her tilts while perfect pivoted, while Marth cannot. I have tested this and it seems to be the case.

And that covered a lot of ground! I hope this can help you out.

Wow thanks! So I should play Marth over Lucina, or play both? Also, what's the difference between range and reach?

 

[Locuan]

Wow thanks! So I should play Marth over Lucina, or play both? Also, what's the difference between range and reach?

Hopefully, @ Shaya will be able to answer the differences between Range and Reach in a clearer manner as it is also a question I have myself. In terms of who to play as, that is a complex question. There are many things you have to ask yourself. For example, are you looking for a character that will achieve you more results when you play in tournaments? Which character do you find the most enjoyable/fun when playing the game? Do you have a certain connection to one character or the other due to lore, nostalgia, etc? I for one use both characters. While I still consider myself a Lucina main I now use Marth more than Lucina because I want to use the character that will give me better results in tournaments. However, I love playing Lucina more because I enjoyed Awakening and her lore while I have yet to play any of Marth's games.

 

[Shaya]

Reach = disjoint. People tend to think of range as horizontal or vertical distances, but that's not what I'm trying to say when I can vouch for Marth's moves having more 'reach', the hitboxes in relation to his sword are going further than they do in Brawl, but for all we know Marth could be stepping significantly less forward when he attacks in comparison to other games. But seeing as Marth's priority is mainly based around his disjoints, the range stuff (if there are differences) just require adjustments by the player.

 

[Snerp]

Is the grab release > tipped fsmash combo well known? I don't see a lot of Marths doing it.

 

[Locuan]

Is the grab release > tipped fsmash combo well known? I don't see a lot of Marths doing it.

That's a combo? Have you seen it marked as such in training mode? Against which characters?

 

[Shaya]

Grab releases always count hits after them as combos until they land.

 

[Locuan]

Interesting, I had no idea that grab release > f-smash can actually combo. Is it against specific characters?

 

[Shaya]

It's not an actual combo though. The released character has every option available to them. Just the counter in training mode will not realise this. Even if you jump, it'll still consider it until you touch the ground (at least it did in Brawl).

Don't you remember the grab release thread? The information was there.

 

[Locuan]

Ah I see, so it's an inherent property of how the counter was coded. Basically a bug in the code. If this still happens in Smash 4 it's interesting to note how they did not catch the error from Brawl when coding the new game. On another note, if after the grab release you are able to bait the airdodge, then the f-smash should connect with tipper then due to the 22 frames of landing lag.

EDIT: Unless the opponent was released in the grounded animation.

 

[Shaya]

Sure, you can try to get follow ups from grab releases much like you could a dthrow or fthrow, but without any form of frame advantage whatsoever.

 

[Locuan]

Ah interesting I see. There are a lot of variables to consider when going into a reliable follow up. And frame advantage is very important indeed. Well I learned something today! Thanks for the info @Shaya!

 

[Ekans647]

Reach = disjoint. People tend to think of range as horizontal or vertical distances, but that's not what I'm trying to say when I can vouch for Marth's moves having more 'reach', the hitboxes in relation to his sword are going further than they do in Brawl, but for all we know Marth could be stepping significantly less forward when he attacks in comparison to other games. But seeing as Marth's priority is mainly based around his disjoints, the range stuff (if there are differences) just require adjustments by the player.

What exactly is a disjoint? Also, what's buffering?

 

[Shaya]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

 

[Snerp]

That's a combo? Have you seen it marked as such in training mode? Against which characters?

I did it twice against an Ike. It went like this : Grab > Pummel until grounded release > Fsmash as soon as you can. It was a tipper both time and KO'd super early.

And no I didn't test it in training. I was just screwing around with Marth in FG and it just kinda happened.

Edit : After a little testing it seems to work on Ike and not everyone like I assumed. Sorry.

 

[grandgear]

Anyone have any idea how to preform this?
Is it even possible to preform a perfect pivot while running?

 

[Locuan]

Incorrect assumption in the spoiler tags.

Spoiler

@ grandgear that looks like a roll cancelled into a Shield Breaker due to it's animation sequence. That's not a perfect pivot into Shield Breaker. @ Shaya , @Emblem Lord, you should take a look at this. What do you think is going on in here? I'm going to head into the lab tomorrow and see if I can get this working.

 

[Shaya]

Perfect Pivot Shieldbreaker slides you backwards. Perfect pivots are the best thing in the universe.

 

[Locuan]

Alright @ grandgear , I tested it out. It is not a roll cancelled Shieldbreaker (very incorrect assumption).

I was able to get part of the effect in the video you posted above. Basically, when you perform the neutral b, there is a small instance in the beginning of the move where you can switch it's direction with the analog stick. If you do that while running, you will carry the momentum with the move into the opposite direction. In the video posted above, he runs left, moves right after performing the technique, but still faces left. When I was trying to recreate this, I would run left, move right after performing the technique, but face right as well. A grounded b-reversal.

This was the input basically:
to run, and after a while then quickly .

Now from a bad babylon translation of the description of the video you posted above I believe he uses both the C-stick and the analog stick to be able to face the same direction he was running to following a similar pattern as above. If someone knows japanese and is able to accurately translate that text it would give us a better idea of what's going on.

EDIT: I literally have no idea what's going on at the moment. I got a few frames from the video. I'm currently analyzing them trying to understand what's going on. There's something more to this than meets the eye.

 

[grandgear]

@ Locuan

Im starting to think this video is a fake. There's a jump in the camera's view before the shield breaker. Im sorry for wasting your time.

 

[Funkermonster]

Since the Matchup Boards are already discussing Pit, I thought I'd ask this here: What to do against projectile characters who spam rolls? The character in question I speak of is , fought one awhile ago on For Glory and she was spamming sun salutation while I was far away, and rolling alot whenever I got in. Against Melee characters who don't really have any projectiles, I feel more comfortable punishing their rolls but against zoners that's a different story.I still beat and killed her in the end with a Tipper Fsmash (thank god) but the fight was soooo long and tedious that it annoyed me to no end, WFT is a character I have low knowledge of and don't really know how to play as or against her with any character. Her Deep Breathing move acted as a thorn my the side too.

Maybe if I wer playing offline or on another stage I wouldn't be feeling this way though, For Glory's starting to grind my gears a little.

 

[Locuan]

@ Locuan

Im starting to think this video is a fake. There's a jump in the camera's view before the shield breaker. Im sorry for wasting your time.

There is? And I just might have overthought from a fake video That's fine don't worry I enjoy the thrill of solving problems. Even if they end up being unsolvable.

 

[Random4811]

There is? And I just might have overthought from a fake video That's fine don't worry I enjoy the thrill of solving problems. Even if they end up being unsolvable.

I don't think its fake. I just reviewed the footage /very/ carefully. I didn't see the jump when the "tech" happened. Whatever it is. I do think I distinctly see that little orb you get when you start a roll. That /could/ be confirmation bias. But, I think what may be happening is B-sticking a roll canceled attack somehow. Mabye SB is roll cancelable if you can B-stick it? We need some testing. I'd try myself but Im limited to only the Gamepad right now, wont have the TV all night.

 

[Locuan]

I agree there needs to be some extensive testing done following multiple parameters to be able to state if its fake or not. But, now that this observation came up from @ grandgear Im going to take things way more slowly and cautiously.

 

[Jaax]

So I just started playing doubles competitively and I was wondering what Marth's job is in doubles?
And also what are some general strategies for Marth in doubles?

 

[Altea77]

So many people online just play as characters with projectiles and then roll spam away whenever i get close enough to attack. How do you beat these people? They just roll away whenever I approach....

 

[ynim]

Get up in their face. If they have any adaptability at all they'll attack, but then it's just all about spacing. If they're really in the roll-spam mindset, you should be able to read the roll and get them in the air. Make them play at YOUR optimal range, not theirs.

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ Altea77 . First of all, welcome to Smashboards! I moved your thread here, to the Marth Q/A thread. As you can see this thread is used to ask questions about Marth's gameplay. Other users will be able to answer your questions here. This is done to keep the sub-forum organized when regarding more general questions. Please use this thread from now on for questions such as these.

Now answering your question, there are multiple ways to deal with projectiles. Depending on the projectile, you may be able to clash/cancel them out with your jab, or Fair. For example, projectiles such as Link's boomerang and arrows fall under this category. Marth also has the nifty ability to auto cancel his air dodge if you input it as soon as you short hop. This can be used to evade projectiles and in some cases approach your opponent. You can also spot-dodge, shield, or roll to evade or block projectiles. A good opponent will mix up how he/she uses their projectile arsenal. You will respond to projectiles with one of the options above depending on the situation.

I recommend reading the section "Dealing with projectiles" from Emblem Lord's thread. Click here to access the thread.

 

[Sir_Africa]

Hey guys really quick about Marth's sweetspot with his dair. What is the sweespot exactly for the spike? Is it just directly below Marth or a little bit in front and below? I can never get it consistently right.

 

[Locuan]

@ Sir_Africa :

Down Air
6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on sourspot, 90° on tipper, 270° on spike
11 / 13 / 14 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 / 1.0 Hit lag modifier
Hits 9-14. Meteor Smash hitbox on frame 11 centered on body
Ends frame 59; 28 frames on landing 3-54

Data from the following thread.

 

[gByron]

I love Marth and Im playing as him since the game came out but I admittedly think pit is just a superior character. They feel similar spacingwise but pit has multiple jumps a very good grab very good dash a better ground game better aggression and more edgeguard options from arrows to chasing opponents even a fast spike over him. The only think marth offers might be a slightly better killpower. Did I miss something

Mod Edit: He is asking for Marth's advantages over Pit.

 

[Locuan]

I love Marth and Im playing as him since the game came out but I admittedly think pit is just a superior character. They feel similar spacingwise but pit has multiple jumps a very good grab very good dash a better ground game better aggression and more edgeguard options from arrows to chasing opponents even a fast spike over him. The only think marth offers might be a slightly better killpower. Did I miss something

Hey there @ gByron . First of all, welcome to Smashboards! I moved your thread into the the Marth Q&A thread. This threads purpose is to answer any questions you or others may have regarding Marth's game play in Smash 4. Please use this thread whenever you have any questions. Other people will be able to help you out here!

Regarding your question, I yet to gain the required knowledge to be able to highlight the key advantages/disadvantages between both characters successfully. On the other hand, maybe @ Zano will be able to help you out. We also discussed the Pit vs. Marth Match-up in our Match-up Thread. That could help you out as well.

 

[Zano]

pit/darkpit are better characters than marth overall, yeah. Marth does pretty much outrange them overall, but they have better followups off grabs that last til higher %s and get better juggles than he does, plus they do have a projectile which is nice even if it's a pretty w/e projectile that is used more for conditioning than damage. Kill power wise, pit/dark pit fsmash can kill super early, but a tipper fsmash from marth can kill even earlier, although it's obviously much harder to land, so really in the end kill powerwise marth isn't much better off.

Both are great characters at edgeguarding, but marth has to commit much harder than pit since he doesn't have multiple jumps or an up b that goes nearly as far, plus when it comes to recovering vertically, pits side b can usually let him get to the ledge safely with super armor so if it came down to one edgeguarding the other, pit would basically have to screw up his super armor timing or be recovering low for marth to capitalize while pit just has to bait out a counter or fair.

 

[Shaya]

Marth can kinda react to the side-b, no?

But yeah, Pits are more solid due to grab game, aerial auto cancels, better dash attack and recovery. But Marth has pretty good damage and finds it easier to get the kill IMO (Up Smash hits on the ground, can tipper, forward tilt tipper is pretty great, up b out of shield/dash, up throw at the same percent fthrow kills near/around the ledge).

Legitimately, Marth's up throw being a relatively reliable kill move with rage is a huge ticket to his ability in tournament, unless he dies first, then he's ****ed.

 

[gByron]

Hey there @ gByron . First of all, welcome to Smashboards! I moved your thread into the the Marth Q&A thread. This threads purpose is to answer any questions you or others may have regarding Marth's game play in Smash 4. Please use this thread whenever you have any questions. Other people will be able to help you out here!

Regarding your question, I yet to gain the required knowledge to be able to highlight the key advantages/disadvantages between both characters successfully. On the other hand, maybe @ Zano will be able to help you out. We also discussed the Pit vs. Marth Match-up in our. That could help you out as well.

Thank you! Great game with even greater community

 

[Smog Frog]

is marth actually bad or does he have a case of the falcos where he's just too different to be played the same way

 

[Novaseer]

Shaya explained it well in the Competitive Character Impressions thread.

Marth had his aerial mobility switched with Ike (actually it may be worse than Brawl Ike's this game).
Walking is worse in this than it was in brawl due to better mobility specs in general and the fact that his grounded options are all laggier than Brawl.
He has practically no auto cancels, and this means that he's generally looking at 40-60 frames of lag for using staple parts of his moveset that a character like sheik, diddy, ness, pika, mario, luigi [i.e. every good character I could go on verbatim] are at 20-25 and suffering 4 frame landing lag, while Marth is 20+ landing or waiting 40 frames for an auto cancel in that scenario and many other scenarios.
Good-ish dash speed, but less so than all the mobility high/top tiers. He still has the longest dash to shield length caste in the game from Brawl, so his 18 frame dash to shield in a game where mobility is faster and practically no one has anything that bad (10-14 frames mostly) [those short few frames make significant difference, don't even dare try to undermine this].
The numbers are as they are.
Marth could have auto cancels (aerials) and brawl ending lag (all of his ground moves) so he could actually have a safe move on shield (at top level, not even well spaced dtilt is safe due to the extra lag on it this game, you can 50/50 spot dodge a dash grab enemy punish if not perfect shielded).
Marth could have his mobility caste maintained and hence be stronger in the air in variation, even with the laggier aerials. When I play Ike I see how Marth could've been with his aerials... still laggy, but at least he wouldn't feel like a rock.
Marth's 'poor' numbers from previous games (dash length, ending lag, etc) weren't compensated when Marth's strong numbers were kinda neutered.
Sakurai/Bandai have chosen to curtail his "top caste" numbers into the average territory and it's why he's not a good/great character. It isn't a coincidence, it isn't our players being bad or not exploring him more (not to say he's capped or at the ceiling of his meta, but his weaknesses are as they are, stark contrasts to Melee/Brawl that were not compensated by anything else), his great moves from Brawl are now good moves and his bad/average moves in Brawl are the same or worse due to worse number specs associated with him. The exceptions are Fsmash (nerfed in range, but the kill power is stupendous) and shield breaker (range and not nerfed frame data).
inb4 "pessimism stance, stop being so negative". It's just the truth. All the numbers revealed are there to tell me this truth.
I still love him to death, but he isn't tournament viable by any stretch. The best thing about him in tournament sets is rage up throw killing most of the cast by around 130%.

 

[Smog Frog]

so marth's too bad to be used? thats a shame.