Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[DariusM27]

John Numbers adds to the long list of wins vs Mr E, using the lamest strategy in existence. I have a feeling that Mkleo would absolutely destroy this strategy consistently, as I know Leo beat Numbers already without too much trouble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj_sBKwBxs4

 

[Bowserboy3]

John Numbers adds to the long list of wins vs Mr E, using the lamest strategy in existence. I have a feeling that Mkleo would absolutely destroy this strategy consistently, as I know Leo beat Numbers already without too much trouble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj_sBKwBxs4

Mr E still doesn't play Marth in what would be considered the "optimal strategy", like Leo does. He still plays Marth too "forward"; he's often too aggressive at times when Leo uses his sword to actually space.

This is why E lost here, and why Leo dealt with Numbers a whole lot easier.

I still respect Mr E, but I do hope he picks up some advice from Leo soon.

 

[Vipermoon]

I still respect Mr E, but I do hope he picks up some advice from Leo soon.

That already happened. And he reveals a few other things too. I'd start watching at 3:30

 

[DariusM27]

Random question guys. All my FG games lately have been mostly vs Canada or Mexico. Am I in some weird anti-American version of Fg Hell?

 

[ぱみゅ]

John Numbers adds to the long list of wins vs Mr E, using the lamest strategy in existence. I have a feeling that Mkleo would absolutely destroy this strategy consistently, as I know Leo beat Numbers already without too much trouble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj_sBKwBxs4

What is exactly the "lamest strategy"?
I saw nothing out of the ordinary, considering WFT's approaching options are absolutely zero.

 

[DariusM27]

What is exactly the "lamest strategy"?
I saw nothing out of the ordinary, considering WFT's approaching options are absolutely zero.

Living off stage should be unsafe and punishable, if the Marth plays optimally. Imo, Leo plays against that strategy better the Mr E does. If WFT could actually stay off stage indefinitely, then WFT would be a broken character - but that is not the case, Mr E just made too many mistakes.
Also, this strategy is not necessarily optimal for WFT. Perhaps WFT would get more success by going on stage more, at times. It's like the difference between an aggressive Sanic and a campy Sanic - an Aggro Sanic might mix in defensiveness whenever appropriate, and possibly always be choosing the optimal option.
But a campy Sanic might be missing opportunities all the time, because they have already committed to the strategy of running away constantly.
Bottom line, playing super campy is considered lame by a lot of the Smash community, that's a fact. In my opinion it is a lame strategy. It's a matter of preference, clearly if you are a campy player then you might disagree.

I know Vipermoon said he plays campy with Marth, but that is not how I understand the definition of campy. I don't think it is possible to camp with characters like Marth and Ike.

Rather, Marth has to constantly hit a bullseye spaced exactly to the tip of his sword, and has to predict where to be, he has to time the hit usually within a few frames, he has to do this several times each stock, and if he misses once, he's probably going to get grabbed or hit or camped out himself. Camping is where the opponent literally cannot catch you no matter what you do.

But, using Vipermoon's definition, a "campy" strategy does seem optimal for Marth much of the time (not always), and Mr E should definitely use it more imo. But it's not 'actual' camping, as Marth can't camp - imo.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I do not think John was camping at all, he only stalled offstage a bit to mixup his recovery (necessary against a character with a strong edgeguard game like Marth).
Again, he wasn't being aggressive because WFT simply can NOT approach well.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I do not think John was camping at all, he only stalled offstage a bit to mixup his recovery (necessary against a character with a strong edgeguard game like Marth).
Again, he wasn't being aggressive because WFT simply can NOT approach well.

Still baffles me why her Bair doesn't AC or something in a SH...

That would go a long way to aiding an approach.

 

[Fephoenix]

Living off stage should be unsafe and punishable, if the Marth plays optimally. Imo, Leo plays against that strategy better the Mr E does. If WFT could actually stay off stage indefinitely, then WFT would be a broken character - but that is not the case, Mr E just made too many mistakes.
Also, this strategy is not necessarily optimal for WFT. Perhaps WFT would get more success by going on stage more, at times. It's like the difference between an aggressive Sanic and a campy Sanic - an Aggro Sanic might mix in defensiveness whenever appropriate, and possibly always be choosing the optimal option.
But a campy Sanic might be missing opportunities all the time, because they have already committed to the strategy of running away constantly.
Bottom line, playing super campy is considered lame by a lot of the Smash community, that's a fact. In my opinion it is a lame strategy. It's a matter of preference, clearly if you are a campy player then you might disagree.

I know Vipermoon said he plays campy with Marth, but that is not how I understand the definition of campy. I don't think it is possible to camp with characters like Marth and Ike.

Rather, Marth has to constantly hit a bullseye spaced exactly to the tip of his sword, and has to predict where to be, he has to time the hit usually within a few frames, he has to do this several times each stock, and if he misses once, he's probably going to get grabbed or hit or camped out himself. Camping is where the opponent literally cannot catch you no matter what you do.

But, using Vipermoon's definition, a "campy" strategy does seem optimal for Marth much of the time (not always), and Mr E should definitely use it more imo. But it's not 'actual' camping, as Marth can't camp - imo.

What is Vipermoon's definition? I'm actually curious about it and knowing it may help me improve my Marth game.
(Also sorry for quoting the whole post. I'm just too lazy to delete it. :3)

 

[DariusM27]

What is Vipermoon's definition? I'm actually curious about it and knowing it may help me improve my Marth game.
(Also sorry for quoting the whole post. I'm just too lazy to delete it. :3)

...

And yes Marth gets camped and it's serious a thing everyone needs to stop forgetting, but he can camp SO MANY characters it's not even funny. It's entirely required to beat any of the heavy characters and you can even camp Mario. I'm usually a campy Marth so I would know. Of course, the MUs where Marth cannot camp are the ones he struggles with the most.

But you have to draw the line between who you think Marth loses to and who you don't have enough tournament experience against. And that is actually really difficult for anyone to draw but seriously, as Bowserboy said, your MU chart is the MU chart of the worst character in the game.

This was a page ago in the thread. I don't think Marth can "camp" in the common usage of the word, but I understand what he means by a "campy" Marth style, and I agree that it is optimal.

 

[Fephoenix]

This was a page ago in the thread. I don't think Marth can "camp" in the common usage of the word, but I understand what he means by a "campy" Marth style, and I agree that it is optimal.

Well, I obviously can't read. I thought it was towards the start of the thread haha.

 

[DariusM27]

Well, I obviously can't read. I thought it was towards the start of the thread haha.

No problem

 

[Squanchy]

Do you guys have any resources or suggestions for how to move Marth between platforms on Battlefield or Dream Land (i.e. when moving from the higher to the lower platforms or vice versa)? Or moving from the stage to the lower two platforms? I see other players move gracefully when transitioning between them but I always feel very slow and vulnerable when I do it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Do you guys have any resources or suggestions for how to move Marth between platforms on Battlefield or Dream Land (i.e. when moving from the higher to the lower platforms or vice versa)? Or moving from the stage to the lower two platforms? I see other players move gracefully when transitioning between them but I always feel very slow and vulnerable when I do it.

I think it depends on the situation. If you knock an opponent off a platform with a landing Fair or Bair perhaps, you can simply just run off to get the next Fair, for example. This works with anyone, but don't feel on tri-plat stages that you have to drop through them.

Ie: if you're on the top platform and somebody is waiting below you for you to drop through, perhaps do a little extended dash dance on the top platform to mix up your intentions, then simply dash off to the side and land on the side platform.

And don't worry, there's no art to getting off platforms. If others make it look graceful, that's fine. When I'm playing, I don't want to look graceful; the first thing on my mind is getting out of that disadvantaged state the safest way. Just practice the best ways to get down, rather than the most flashy, or most graceful ways.

Albeit, some of the best ways can look flashy; using DABK with Bayonetta fits this bill. But this isn't too common.

Remember with floaty characters like Rosalina herself, getting off the platforms is often imperative.

There's no real "best way", but a good thing to do when wanting to get down is to actually watch your opponent rather than yourself. Watch what they are doing, try and figure out what they are trying to do, and wait for them to leave you an opening, no matter how little, such as them doing empty short hops in place underneath the top Battlefield platform - wait for them to do a short hop, then rush to a side platform and either land on it and rush off another side, or mask your intentions again by falling through that one. Actually, the latter method works quite well too, because the opponent essentially has to make a 50/50 decision (if they are quick enough to actually try and get a punish); will they aim to cover on top of the platform, or will they go to cover underneath it?

Just keep practicing, it will come with practice.

 

[Squanchy]

Thanks for the detailed response. Such simple parts of the game get overlooked sometimes.

What about the flip side of that - how do you apply safe pressure with Marth on opponents when they're on a platform above you? Might just be me, but I find I get punished using up tilt. Would fast falling up air and f tilt be safer options?

Also, do you think the back hit of nair might be a good tool to use for this? I don't think I've seen it used much in any situation, let alone as a pressuring tool for opponents on a platform.

 

[Fephoenix]

I've actually used nair (autocorrect changed it to hair ) to pressure people on platforms, though it requires spacing, because you want it to be at max range and just barely above the platform. Nair can cover a few options. If they shield, you'll usually chip away at their shield a little and get away with it because of nair's short landing lag, if they roll towards you, the back part of nair can possibly get them. If they spotdodge or roll away, harder to punish but still possible. Get hit, possible second connection of nair or up tilt, and if the person passes through the platform and air dodge, punish of choice. Nair will beat most attacks because of it's range and speed at which it comes out, though you need to watch out for attacks that can hit the bottom of the platform because of the hurt box from your head.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Thanks for the detailed response. Such simple parts of the game get overlooked sometimes.

What about the flip side of that - how do you apply safe pressure with Marth on opponents when they're on a platform above you? Might just be me, but I find I get punished using up tilt. Would fast falling up air and f tilt be safer options?

Also, do you think the back hit of nair might be a good tool to use for this? I don't think I've seen it used much in any situation, let alone as a pressuring tool for opponents on a platform.

BF = Battlefield
DL = Dreamland
DH = Duck Hunt
SH = Short Hop
FF = Fast Fall

Pressuring on a platform with Marth is luckily easier to do compared to most other characters due to his quick start up frame data and him possessing a sword (having disjoint). There are a few things you can use to pressure on a platform.

Utilt is of course going to hit through platforms (of course not the top platforms of BF and DL, or on the left tree on DH, but that's obvious), which can apply pressure. On BF this can sometimes be punished because the slightly lower side platforms compared to DL mean that you'll most cases hit a sourspot on shield. Utilt is still generally the better option in most cases, but Ftilt (the later part of the move, when the sword reaches around 12 o-clock-ish) can tipper through a BF platform which can be a bit safer.

Ftilt won't hit through a DL platform due to the platforms being slightly higher up, but the trade off is that you'll most likely land a tipper Utilt due to the aforementioned platforms being higher up.

Of course you can use your aerials to pressure on platforms; SH Nair is solid, Fair and Bair are pretty good also if you tipper them. However, doing a SH, then using a FF Uair is arguably Marth's best aerial for pressuring platforms. It can lead into lots of things when combined with Utilt, which I'll get into later...

Lets say there's a character on a platform; for the sake of argument lets say Mario is on one of the side BF platforms. Marth is underneath, so he can attempt to pressure Mario. Here you have a few options, such as using your spaced aerials, but one of the best things to do is to condition your opponent. Let me explain...

If in the first instance, you can use Utilt. Mario will be looking to shield this, so if he's quick enough, he might be able to punish you for doing so, with a drop down aerial; Nair, Bair or Uair will likely be the most common options. If he isn't quick enough, you should be able to get another Uair for free to set up a juggle, though let's assume he's confident enough and quick enough to punish.

Then start mixing up with falling Uair in later situations. Mario will now be expecting a move, so he will shield. If you use SH FF Uair, this has less lag on it that Utilt. As such, if Mario will not be able to punish this attempt, so you can then follow up into an Utilt as above. Mario can shield this if he doesn't want to get hit.

Then when you've conditioned your opponent to expect the Utilt after the falling Uair, this is when you can start getting the good stuff. As Mario will be expecting the Utilt after the FF Uair, he will be shielding in anticipation. From this, you can punish by instead using a jumping Shield Breaker. If spaced and timed correctly, you can break a shield after the Uair (assuming the Uair tippered - not sure if it will if the Uair sourspotted), in which case can lead into the stock being taken. Even if you don't break the shield, Mario's shield will now be incredibly low, which allow you to play a little more aggressively until it replenishes.

And actually, it's for this reason why I prefer BF over DL slightly for Marth, because you have to jump more distance to effectively get to the opponent on a DL platform as opposed to a BF platform, and part of the reason why I don't like the idea of the stages being merged in this new suggested ruleset, but hey, at least things are looking like they will change. That, and it's for a different argument I suppose.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ftilt will reach someone on the DL platform since the range buff. And nice job mentioning the Shield Breaker. I want to say that this doesn't even need to be full hopped. You can SH rising SB (meaning use SB as soon as possible) and get their shield. Not sure if SH works on DL. Probably not since it doesn't come close on Smashville. Full hop rising SB in those cases. A sour Uair is enough to break shield. Even after a couple seconds by the way.

I also want to talk about Nair. It will hit shields with a short hop without fast fall (BF) and easily tippered with a full hop. Because the Nair can be delayed and the multi-hit on top of that, this can catch people. And high damage on the shield and possibly shield poking if it's small and they aren't angling it. This option is with Uair when it comes to safety.

 

[Fephoenix]

Wait. Nair can be delayed? First I've heard of it. Please tell me more.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wait. Nair can be delayed? First I've heard of it. Please tell me more.

What I mean is you don't have to use it as soon as you jump. You can wait to press A. If you're delaying the Nair they may drop shield early and get hit. More likely to happen if you full hop.

 

[Fephoenix]

Oh lol I thought you meant delayed between first and second hits. Miscommunication is stupid.

 

[Fephoenix]

Are there any MUs on which Marth needs to be aggressive?

 

[Bowserboy3]

I can't think of any MU's that Marth needs to be outright aggressive in to be honest. Though there is an art to realising when you can/need to switch from the spacing/baiting/defensive playstyle into a more aggressive one.

An example would be after pressuring an opponents shield and making it low.

Another example would be after forcing an opponent off stage and attempting to go for an edgeguard... though this brings up another arguement of "do I go offstage for an edgeguard, or do I stay on stage and attempt to ledge trap/pressure?", as both are arguably as good and effective as each other.

 

[Fephoenix]

Speaking of how, how would a Marth bait? As a person who can mainly only play CPUs, I don't have much experience in anything player-based, such as baiting/conditioning/reading, or a single shield break. Stupid perfect shields!

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth needs to play aggressively against the characters that force him to approach, particularly the ones that don't deal with pressure that well. He isn't meant to play this way (which is why I've said before that he doesn't win matchups where he's asked to do the approaching), but if he doesn't against certain characters, he'll be outdamaged and will repeatedly get sent off-stage.

 

[DariusM27]

Speaking of how, how would a Marth bait? As a person who can mainly only play CPUs, I don't have much experience in anything player-based, such as baiting/conditioning/reading, or a single shield break. Stupid perfect shields!

You should read through the strategy guides on the Marth smashboards forums.
You should watch a lot of MkLeo, False, Pugwest, and Mr E Marth gameplay. Realize each different MU is like it's own mini-game.
Your button setup is very important. Figure out how to best optimize your button setup, and don't be afraid to change and experiment with it in training mode.

A simple answer to your question,
-baiting could be as simple as walking forward until the opponent approaches, then either dashing back or rolling back or forward, depending on the situation.
Example, Capn Falcon does a dash grab/attk towards you. You are standing still. Before he gets to you, dash back out of range of his attack and then use Side B/Dancing blade to punish his endlag.
If you are running away and instead of taking the bait and attacking or grabbing, they keep pursuing you, a good time to roll behind them might be right before they are in range to hit/grab you (Sanic/Falcon).
You could also use Short Hop Air Dodge to attack as an option, but that is sometimes risky, especially if the opponent hasn't committed to a moderately laggy option.

That's just an example. You can't possibly read all scenarios, categorize them in your mind, and apply them well on the battlefield.

Brainstorming and individual creativity is key. Maining Marth is like solving an algebra problem. Sometimes there is only one way to get the right answer, and the only way that happens is with a lot of thought, problem-solving, practice, and creativity. A good example of this is the ZeRo vs MkLeo matches at ZeRo saga.
He dealt with ledge traps and banana at an unprecedented rate of success, using options I hadn't seen used until then, and he constantly switched up his options while maintaining control of the neutral.

Anyway, if you have any more questions, just ask.

Edit - Oh, and compare all of Marth's frame data to eachother, and to other characters.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth

 

[Fephoenix]

Practice dash-dancing for a more decent bait. Got it. XD But thanks. This actually does help me, even though I'll probably be exploring what each term means later in the future. A.K.A when I get on a Wii U again. Especially neutral game. Speaking of guides though, I remember one that gave out a combo the OP called Down Throw Ultimate Combo. (DTUC) (String, not combo) It went like this. Down throw to bair to fair to grab down throw bair fair fair dair. I think. Has anyone ever done that successfully? If so, can I get a brief description of how it works? I find it very hard to pull off even the second grab, and I feel like the combo would be good as a mixup, as it sounds as if it can be done on Final Destination, so it could be another combo to rack up a lot of damage on a stage not named Battlefield.

 

[DariusM27]

Are these a thing... or not a thing??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPI2RO2zzdI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5x-difCwi4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB1kmbnuxow

 

[Fephoenix]

Are these a thing... or not a thing??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPI2RO2zzdI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5x-difCwi4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB1kmbnuxow

If those are a thing, Marth becomes that much closer to being a combo king once again. This would be crazy. We definitely need more testing on this.

 

[MERPIS]

Is jab1 to upb a reliable kill confirm?

 

[Vipermoon]

Are these a thing... or not a thing??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPI2RO2zzdI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5x-difCwi4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB1kmbnuxow

Marth has a very low gravity (not to be confused with fall speed) so he hits the ground later than other characters after getting hit. So a lot of those jab lock windows are detrimentally smaller on other characters. Separately, let's not forget about DI and rage affecting things plus how hard it is to get these set-up hits and for it to be at 0% or something barely above. Sour Ftilt and sour-sour Dash Attack stop jab locking shortly after the percents we see in the videos.

Atrocities I saw are in the third video at 0:29, 0:30, and 0:49 / 0:53. I'm surprised that Dair spiked from that horizontal distance and the backwards Nair thing is so difficult and probably only works on DK (his wide arms and shoulders for the first hit and how his sticks his arm out and up during hitstun helping the back hit connect). Actually this guy might've modified the game for bigger Marth inner hitboxes as I frankly don't see the Nair ever happening even on DK. Now for Melee and Brawl that would be no problem. Those Ftilts on fallen opponents from that distance could have been tippers as well (the hitboxes first come out when the sword is tucked in and facing down). AT 30 seconds, did Fsmash really reach that far up!?

Lastly, many characters can still recover from those Dair spike finishers - even without wall jump opportunities.

Edit: to be clear, I definitely enjoyed watching these

This too:

 

[Squanchy]

Is there a rule of thumb or quasi-flowchart to follow for Jab 1 followups (depending on percent/rage and DI)? More often than not, I always seem to make the wrong decision in matches when I land Jab 1 and then get nothing/not much out of it. Usually, the only reliable follow up I land is F Tilt at high percents and dancing blade at low percents.

 

[DariusM27]

Is there a rule of thumb or quasi-flowchart to follow for Jab 1 followups (depending on percent/rage and DI)? More often than not, I always seem to make the wrong decision in matches when I land Jab 1 and then get nothing/not much out of it. Usually, the only reliable follow up I land is F Tilt at high percents and dancing blade at low percents.

Sometimes short hop side b1 works really really well.
If its a low percent or fastfaller, just use side b.
If its a low percent and a fastfaller, you just activated their trap card. Now get ready to get 0todeathed for free.
(jk)......?

 

[Fephoenix]

What are some ways that Marth can cover rolls? Like when you know the direction that they're going to roll, A.K.A roll behind or roll away, and even if you don't?

 

[Bowserboy3]

What are some ways that Marth can cover rolls? Like when you know the direction that they're going to roll, A.K.A roll behind or roll away, and even if you don't?

Dancing Blade.

No, seriously. This move does it better than pretty much everything else he has.

One thing I like doing on the ledge is pressuring with Dtilt so they do some form of getup. If they roll I can easily react to this with a Dancing Blade.

If they do a normal getup they risk getting hit by a Dtilt regardless. If they getup and shield, a Dtilt into Shield Breaker can break a shield, which is lit.

If you're good enough, you can actually cover all options if you're good at predicting jumps. You can Nair to attempt to catch the ledge jump. If you're quick enough and fast fall, you can hit neutral and attack getups should they opt for those, and if they roll as you do this, you can then catch them with Dancing Blade.

So yeah, Dancing Blade is pretty good.

Admittedly, it's still worse than it was in Brawl... that move was absolutely bonkers.

 

[Fephoenix]

Dancing Blade.

No, seriously. This move does it better than pretty much everything else he has.

One thing I like doing on the ledge is pressuring with Dtilt so they do some form of getup. If they roll I can easily react to this with a Dancing Blade.

If they do a normal getup they risk getting hit by a Dtilt regardless. If they getup and shield, a Dtilt into Shield Breaker can break a shield, which is lit.

If you're good enough, you can actually cover all options if you're good at predicting jumps. You can Nair to attempt to catch the ledge jump. If you're quick enough and fast fall, you can hit neutral and attack getups should they opt for those, and if they roll as you do this, you can then catch them with Dancing Blade.

So yeah, Dancing Blade is pretty good.

Admittedly, it's still worse than it was in Brawl... that move was absolutely bonkers.

Wasn't really talking about ledge getups... I was talking more like roll in general, though this helps too. Like, should I just learn the timing of when I can punish, and try to punish it, or should I just throw out a certain move when I'll know they're going to roll? Because DB has horrendous end lag for me, and it doesn't help if I whiff against fast characters...

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wasn't really talking about ledge getups... I was talking more like roll in general, though this helps too. Like, should I just learn the timing of when I can punish, and try to punish it, or should I just throw out a certain move when I'll know they're going to roll? Because DB has horrendous end lag for me, and it doesn't help if I whiff against fast characters...

Oh yeah I know you were talking about general rolls. I just went off on a bit of a tangent, aha!

But really, Dancing Blade is one of the best tools in the game for catching rolls. The fact that you can do it out of a run (because it's a special move) is it's main selling point.

If you do something with low lag on a shield, like a Jab 1 or Dtilt, and the opponent rolls into you, you have more than enough time to follow the roll and react with a Dancing Blade. It's harder to catch rolls away, but if you can predict the roll away, you can utilise it's ability to be used out of a run to catch the roll away.

 

[Vipermoon]

SH rising Dair into FF if you don't know what side of you they're gonna be on. Usmash does that too. Otherwise, DB or Bair do extremely well. The thing about Bair is depending on the situation, you can choose to rising Bair into FF autocancel Utilt/Jab/Ftilt/Fsmash or you can rising Bair into double jump Fair (or whatever aerial for the situation such as Nair for Smashville platform trap and early kill) and continue a nasty aerial string or frame trap.