Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Jamaz]

Hey, just got into Smash 4 and trying to learn this character to attend locals. Any tips on how to utilize Marth's grab game since I heard on streams that it's pretty good?

Do you typically just standing shield grab to punish and dash in with Z to grab? Or is there some better method I don't know of that extends the range or comes out faster? Is there anything situational for getting a grab that might not be apparent to rookies like me?

 

[Vipermoon]

Hey, just got into Smash 4 and trying to learn this character to attend locals. Any tips on how to utilize Marth's grab game since I heard on streams that it's pretty good?

Do you typically just standing shield grab to punish and dash in with Z to grab? Or is there some better method I don't know of that extends the range or comes out faster? Is there anything situational for getting a grab that might not be apparent to rookies like me?

Those are the best way to input grabs.

Anyway, Marth's grab game is below average. Dthrow does 5% and the rest do 4%. Uthrow with rage is an amazing kill throw on most characters. Back throw has a nice, low angle to throw others off-stage and comes out quick (to induce panic options or make them miss their tech) but also has a lot of end lag to Marth. In this Smash game, Fthrow and Dthrow have a lot of base knockback and low knockback growth. This means that high rage will ruin them even at 0% but without rage, they (Dthrow) might work even past 100% due to the low growth. A flaw in all of Marth's throw is that their animation speeds are weight based. So heavier characters cannot be comboed due to too much end lag.

After Dthrow, you can get Bair to Fair/Nair/Uair or Uair to landing read. Or air dodge read into whatever. And Fthrow you can gets Fairs or Bair if you're quick or, rarely, Nair/Uair/aerial Dancing Blade/Shield Breaker.

You can get a grab off of a landing aerial (any of them at low percents) or a Jab 1 or Dtilt or anti-air Ftilts/Utilt. Watch out for aggression after Dtilt because it doesn't combo into grab.

A lot of the time Dancing Blade follow-ups out of these things can be better than grabs. In general, be sure to practice many variations of DB and figure out what works at what rages and characters. That move is almost broken on some characters when you get good at it.

 

[PEACE7]

At 6:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJoNu9X7hJw was the upair to upB legit? like is that a thing at high percents?

 

[Vipermoon]

At 6:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJoNu9X7hJw was the upair to upB legit? like is that a thing at high percents?

Yes, that was easily legit.

 

[PEACE7]

Yes, that was easily legit.

thanks dude that's pretty cool

 

[Cherpumple]

Hey all. My friend is having trouble recovering with just about all the characters he plays, but I noticed that it happens the most with his Marth so I'm asking here. I wasn't really sure where to ask this so feel free to send me elsewhere if this isn't the place.

Whenever he gets launched off stage, he ends up recovering high because he's scared of getting pineappled. When he decides not to recover high, he usually uses his double jump far away from the stage, then either air dodges or does an aerial parallel to the edge, then freaks out when he didn't grab the edge while using those options. I've told him that you can't grab the edge while doing that, and he seems to understand that that's the case, but for some reason can't stop doing it.

Edgeguarding has also been a problem with him. He usually accidentally runs off the stage first and then jumps, thus accidentally using his second jump in the process. He's figured out how to tell when he's used the second jump, but is having a hard time getting the timing right for running to the edge and using his ground jump instead of running off.

I've been trying to give him advice but all I can think of to tell him is to stop using these options off stage. My advice has pretty much just been "learn to recover well first, then you can add in aerials and whatnot." Is this solid advice? What tips can I give him? I've never had these off stage problems so I'm not sure what to tell him. Thanks in advance!

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ok, I suppose I can give a few tips (ha, puns).

Right, first off, to be blunt, there's no excuse for being scared of being pinappled. The only stages you should worry about that are Dreamland and Lylat; every other stage is super easy to recover and sweetspot to the ledge, and it's lucky Marth has a relatively good sweetspot (sometimes, he has the huge magnet hands, it's very lenient). Recovering low is usually ALWAYS the best thing to do with Marth, as Dolphin Slash is fast, gets very good vertical distance, and is quite risky to intercept due to it's own high stage spiking potential; not many people will want to mess with it.

With that in mind, how is it best for one to recover low? First thing is first: never burn that jump as Marth when needing to recover. It's often best to go down as low as possible, and use your double jump and Dolphin Slash to sweetspot the ledge. Most opponents will not go down that low. On the occasion somebody does go that low, double jump air dodge first, then get back to the stage before the opponent. Marth without his double jump when recovering is a sad Marth.

In terms of edgeguarding, Marth has just a good ledge trap game, so if he's struggling with edgeguarding off stage, see if he wants to focus on the ledge trapping game first.

There's a specific distance from the ledge Marth can stand, which puts him out of the range of a getup attack option, but at the same time puts him at tipper Ftilt range. This is a good option, because if the opponent rolls behind, Marth can Bair them, and also turnaround grab them too. Marth's Dtilt hits below the ledge, and it good at forcing getups; one thing that's good is using Dtilt to force a getup, and then using Nair straight from there. Opponents that jump will be caught by this, and when tippered on the 2nd hit, can KO as early as around 100% (even earlier with rage).

As for true edgeguarding, the only thing I can advise is practice. It's good to make sure you jump before you leave the stage, as you mentioned. That can only come with practice. Sometimes however (if the opponent is going to recover low for example), you can just run off stage and preserve your double jump; Marth's Fair is quick enough for a swing off stage, and even a swing after a double jump and you can still likely make it back with a Dolphin Slash.

An alternative method would be grabbing onto the ledge, and dropping down with an aerial is good (Bair is the best bet here, but for opponents recovering straight up vertically to the ledge, moves like Fair, Dolphin Slash and Counter work well too). You can jump to grab the ledge, or there is an alternative method where you can run off stage, and immediately fast fall and hold back toward the stage (think of like quickly half circling in the opposite direction). This lets you grab the ledge easily.

Overall, like anything with Marth, it takes practice. Marth excels off of fantastic fundamental plays, so the phrase "practice makes perfect" comes to mind here.

 

[Cherpumple]

Bowserboy3 Thank you so much for such an extensive and timely reply! These are really great tips, much better than anything I would've been able to say with my limited knowledge on Marth lol. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Watched a few of MKLeo's games and I noticed he lands with Dair alot. Is this worth doing in disadvantage or no?

 

[Shaya]

It has a huge amount of horizontal range - well spaced it's difficult to punish.

 

[Vipermoon]

Forgot about this question. Dair starts from behind (you may want that in certain situations), does good damage/shieldstun/shield pushback, and because it hits below it lets you drift a good distance away before you land. Bair sucks at hitting below because that move changes drastically depending on if you're rising, falling, fast falling, etc. Fair has a deadzone below despite having a sword trail.

 

[DariusM27]

I've hit a roadblock lately, wondering if anyone else has as well?

Here's my MU tier chart for me personally.
Opponent/me

Bad MUs

• 90/10 Greninja
• 90/10 Bayonetta
• 90/10 Diddy Kong
• 80/20 Mega Man
• 80/20 Olimar
• 80/20 Sonic
• 70/30 Samus
• 70/30 Captain Falcon
• 70/30 Ryu

Disadvantaged MUs

• 60/40 Sheik
• 60/40 Link
• 60/40 Toon Link
• 60/40 Zero Suit Samus
• 60/40 Cloud
• 60/40 Pit
• 60/40 Lucas
• 60/40 Game & Watch
• 60/40 Bowser Jr.
• 60/40 Villager
• 60/40 Dark Pit
• 60/40 Shulk
• 60/40 Pac-Man
• 60/40 Mario
• 60/40 Luigi
• 60/40 Meta Knight
• 60/40 Little Mac

Even MUs

• 50/50 Princess Peach
• 50/50 Lucina
• 50/50 Wii Fit Trainer
• 50/50 Bowser
• 50/50 Rosalina
• 50/50 Yoshi
• 50/50 Wario
• 50/50 Donkey Kong
• 50/50 Princess Zelda
• 50/50 Ganondorf
• 50/50 Marth
• 50/50 Kirby
• 50/50 King DeDeDe
• 50/50 Fox
• 50/50 Falco
• 50/50 Pikachu
• 50/50 Lucario
• 50/50 Jigglypuff
• 50/50 Charizard
• 50/50 ROB
• 50/50 Ness
• 50/50 Dr. Mario
• 50/50 Lucina
• 50/50 Palutena
• 50/50 Robin
• 50/50 Duck Hunt Dog

Good MU

• 40/60 Ike

I don't know why, but I've been absolute garbage lately. Here are some guesses as to why.

1. With work and family, I don't have time to go to tournys or play very much.
2. I play online too much. Marth is mid tier on FG, imo. Lag input hurts him more than almost any other character.
3. Marth has consistency problems, part of the character's design.

Lately my performance has been nothing to brag about, but I would like it to change. How are your experiences different?
What are your best and worst MUs?

Also, just something I've noticed.
Smash4 Marth is litereally never shown in highlight videos, since game's launch. Not sure if that is significant or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTKYbGJclLQ (The Salt is Real)

One thing I would say about it is, a highlight clip is usually when one player dominates another. I think that happens with Marth less often because his matches are usually even - 50/50, or he gets a tipper and KOs at 50% or something.

The only highlights I see lately are literally only from MkLeo, and maybe some of Mr E.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I think Marth has the potential to do well in virtually every MU, but from my experience personally, I find that he does well against most projectile characters (namely Villager and Toon Link) since his sword destroys weak projectiles like Toon Link's arrows and Villager's Slingshot + SHAD allows him to avoid / catch a ton of projectiles. Additionally, he has significantly greater range than most projectile characters. I think he does well against several heavy weights as well + several characters w/ exploitable recoveries like Ike, Ryu, DK, Luigi, etc.

That being said, I personally struggle with most character w/ potent Dash Grabs / Attacks and / or good comboing / juggling abilities, namely Mario, Captain Falcon, Bowser, and Samus. Marth's sourspot placements make it hard for me to properly wall these characters and a Shielded sourspot attack usually means that I will be eating a ton of damage from a DG / DA OOS. I also struggle against really fast characters like ZSS. I like using Roy for most of these matchups since he has an easier time landing, his lower endlag / landing lag make his sword more ideal in these matchups for walling opponents / pressuring their shield (imo anyways), his faster Dash makes it much easier to catch up to these characters, and his greater reward off a grab / neutral hits make it easier to close percent gaps against these characters.

 

[homiedixon]

Considering the SH Dancing Blade Nair FF jab combo doesnt work until somewhere around 40%, is there any use for SH Dancing Blade Uair FF at lower %? It comes out one frame earlier than Nair, and I'd imagine it does a bit more hitstun since it deals more damage than just the first hit of Nair.

 

[DariusM27]

Considering the SH Dancing Blade Nair FF jab combo doesnt work until somewhere around 40%, is there any use for SH Dancing Blade Uair FF at lower %? It comes out one frame earlier than Nair, and I'd imagine it does a bit more hitstun since it deals more damage than just the first hit of Nair.

I've been using Jab1 to Sh Db to catch attempts to jump/DI away, and I've been catching a lot of people forcing them to lose their 2nd jump.

 

[ぱみゅ]

DB>Uair is actually good, Uair even sets up for more juggling.
DB>Nair>Stuff is pretty much only good for getting kills.

 

[Fephoenix]

Well, since this is the question and answer thread, I have a question. If someone is playing against you in a really defensive strategy, think campy sonic, where he just runs away and goes in for an attack if you mess anything up, how should I deal with that as Marth? I can't return the favor if they have projectiles, such as Greninja's low lag neutral b, because I don't have any of my own, and it's hard getting close to them because like level 9 CPUs on run mode in training, sometimes they'll jump and air dodge away, sometimes they'll roll, and sometimes they'll come at me with a dash attack, or even side b if it's good for that purpose. How should I deal with this?

 

[DariusM27]

Well, since this is the question and answer thread, I have a question. If someone is playing against you in a really defensive strategy, think campy sonic, where he just runs away and goes in for an attack if you mess anything up, how should I deal with that as Marth? I can't return the favor if they have projectiles, such as Greninja's low lag neutral b, because I don't have any of my own, and it's hard getting close to them because like level 9 CPUs on run mode in training, sometimes they'll jump and air dodge away, sometimes they'll roll, and sometimes they'll come at me with a dash attack, or even side b if it's good for that purpose. How should I deal with this?

Mr E goes even with Greninjas who aren't even "the best" Greninjas out there.

I've played vs one of the better Greninja's myself, and I think the matchup is 60/40 or worse for Marth. This is because it is so easy for Greninja to control and dominate the neutral. If Marth gets a hit, it is a major success as well as because the Greninja player made pretty big mistake.


One thing that is probably contributing to your challenge vs Greninja is, if you are playing on FG, there are no platforms, and Marth has an added advantage with platforms vs Greninja.

Greninja has amazing KO setups off of easy moves like Dtilt - Fair, and several others. He has an easy/safe neutral. He is faster than Marth. His Aerials are just as strong as Marth, and Bair beats Marth in speed.

I had written more but the browser refreshed and deleted some of it.

Anyway, - the Marth meta seems to be evolving right now, thanks to MkLeo. My attempt to answer your question is to change things up constantly and tactically. Watch MkLeo's movement options, he does a lot of things that seem unconventional, but some of the other best players do them to - like rolling (Ally, Anti, ZeRo).
Be aggressive, stay out of their range, change up your movement options a lot, and probably the hardest part - don't screw up your punish game when an opening shows up.

 

[-Crews-]

If this has already been asked, oh well. But anyway, does anyone set c sick to tilts? I just started using Marth and I'd like to know what the communities opinion is on the c sick.

 

[DariusM27]

If this has already been asked, oh well. But anyway, does anyone set c sick to tilts? I just started using Marth and I'd like to know what the communities opinion is on the c sick.

Using Smash cstick stops your aerial momentum. If you do use SmashCstick, flicking the stick as quickly as possible is the most optimal use of it for aerials. Otherwise your aerials will not be as mobile and you won't be able to fastfall frame perfect while holding the cstick.

Smash Cstick has certain technical uses that can't be achieved with tilt stick. For instance, there is a way to use both sticks to do easy perfect pivots, but if you already do P.Pivots easily, perhaps that isn't something you need.

I would say, try both. But the consensus among Marth Smashboards is Tilt stick. Although Mr E does use Smash stick and I think I have heard that MkLeo uses Smash stick too, but I don't know about that for sure.

 

[Vipermoon]

MKLeo does use Tilt stick actually. But yes, Darius is correct that in general, Marth mains lean towards tilt stick. But it's up to you.

 

[DariusM27]

If anyone wants to see one of the best Marth combos ever, here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zzm5PBPask&t=0m29s

 

[DariusM27]

Can someone explain to me how the Marth Jab1 frame cancel works, and how it is done?

 

[Fephoenix]

Can someone explain to me how the Marth Jab1 frame cancel works, and how it is done?

I could possibly be wrong on this, as I have never been able to successfully do it myself, but I heard that the Marth Jab1 frame cancel is done by inputting jab, then moving the ... Analog? Whatever stick moves you around, to the opposite of where you're facing diagonally down while you're still in jab frames.

 

[Squanchy]

Can someone explain to me how the Marth Jab1 frame cancel works, and how it is done?

It works because crouching reduces the risk of inputting Jab 2 before the last frame of Jab 1.

I use tilt stick so I like to do jab with a diagonal input on the c-stick, hold down on the analog stick to cancel the second jab window with a crouch, and then press a diagonal input on the c-stick again.

 

[ぱみゅ]

IIRC any action would cancel the jab1 animation, so even walking for a fast Jab>Ftilt should work.
I generally do Jab>Crouch>Fsmash so it comes out faster.

 

[Vipermoon]

It works because crouching reduces the risk of inputting Jab 2 before the last frame of Jab 1.

I use tilt stick so I like to do jab with a diagonal input on the c-stick, hold down on the analog stick to cancel the second jab window with a crouch, and then press a diagonal input on the c-stick again.

You can consistently Jab with the c-stick? I wish that was never a thing as I'll occasionally get accidental Nairs and Jab (especially Nair).

That's not it with the Jab 1 cancel. You are actually getting another Jab 1 faster, that's why Jab 1 can combo into Jab 1 even at low percents with this trick.

 

[Squanchy]

You can consistently Jab with the c-stick? I wish that was never a thing as I'll occasionally get accidental Nairs and Jab (especially Nair).

That's not it with the Jab 1 cancel. You are actually getting another Jab 1 faster, that's why Jab 1 can combo into Jab 1 even at low percents with this trick.

Ah alright my mistake, thanks for the clarification. And yes, I like to do jab with the diagonal input as it lets me walk and jab at the same time. Nairs I need to work on more, but I do like to use the c stick to do RAR nairs with Rosa.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ah alright my mistake, thanks for the clarification. And yes, I like to do jab with the diagonal input as it lets me walk and jab at the same time. Nairs I need to work on more, but I do like to use the c stick to do RAR nairs with Rosa.

What would you say is your success percentage on c-stick jabs?

 

[DariusM27]

What would you say is your success percentage on c-stick jabs?

So they come out faster because of the crouch cancel or because of the use of Cstick?

 

[Vipermoon]

So they come out faster because of the crouch cancel or because of the use of Cstick?

Not because of c-stick because you don't need c-stick to do it. Also, I didn't look that far into this but I don't know if it should be called a crouch cancel since the anolog stick needs to be diagonal and opposite the way you're facing rather than just down.

 

[Bowserboy3]

If ever I try to cancel Jab 1, I simply just hold down to crouch. Doing Jab 1 to Ftilt is easier because I can just smash the C-stick to the left/right to do the Ftilt (I use attack stick) while holding down to crouch. I find this the most reliable way to get it done.

I've been trying to implement Jab cancels into my game recently, with both Marth and Rosalina. With Marth, it is mainly just for Jab 1 to Ftilt or Utilt, but it's super useful for Rosalina; you can get almost anything if you're good (but things like Jab 1 > 2 > Grab/Uair/Nair/Dair/Dtilt are the best options).

I sometimes try doing the C-stick diagonally to do a Jab (mainly when walking towards an opponent), but I too am not very consistent at this. I also cry a little when I am in perfect spacing for a specific tipper aerial and I get a Nair by mistake...

I can't quite get my thumb to consistently push the c-stick diagonally. Is there an art to this?



Edit: Wait, if you're going to go down the "hold the control stick diagonally down" route, it has to be facing away from you? So, if I was facing to the right, I'd need to hold the control stock diagonally to the left (so basically, between 7-8 oclock)?

I thought it was just diagonally down, like the same way you were facing would work. I honestly can't remember.

Also, perhaps I'm digging up old bones, but DariusM27 , if Marth truly lost as many MU's as you seem to think (that's without mentioning how many 90:10, 80:20 and 70:30 MU's you listed), he'd literally be bottom tier. Even Puff's MU spread isn't THAT atrocious .

But at the time of that post you admitted you were going through a roadblock period, so your opinions were likely heavily skewed negatively. Hopefully you've pulled through that now, because Marth absolutely wins more MU's than he loses (but you're right, Marth takes quite the hit on FG; lag, and being forced to play on arguably his worst stage).

But you mentioned that Marth has been absent from highlight videos and such. Perhaps, but what I've noticed is that since his buffs and results, I've seen him a LOT more in guides and stuff as a test dummy and such (like, in character guides; previously, you'd see the typical top tiers and high tiers like Sheik, Falcon, Ness, ZSS, Diddy, Meta Knight etc. Nowadays, Marth appears in there too... [look at a lot of Izaw's old guides vs some of his most recent ones]). Perhaps people add him in there because he's good now?

 

[DariusM27]

If ever I try to cancel Jab 1, I simply just hold down to crouch. Doing Jab 1 to Ftilt is easier because I can just smash the C-stick to the left/right to do the Ftilt (I use attack stick) while holding down to crouch. I find this the most reliable way to get it done.

I've been trying to implement Jab cancels into my game recently, with both Marth and Rosalina. With Marth, it is mainly just for Jab 1 to Ftilt or Utilt, but it's super useful for Rosalina; you can get almost anything if you're good (but things like Jab 1 > 2 > Grab/Uair/Nair/Dair/Dtilt are the best options).

I sometimes try doing the C-stick diagonally to do a Jab (mainly when walking towards an opponent), but I too am not very consistent at this. I also cry a little when I am in perfect spacing for a specific tipper aerial and I get a Nair by mistake...

I can't quite get my thumb to consistently push the c-stick diagonally. Is there an art to this?



Edit: Wait, if you're going to go down the "hold the control stick diagonally down" route, it has to be facing away from you? So, if I was facing to the right, I'd need to hold the control stock diagonally to the left (so basically, between 7-8 oclock)?

I thought it was just diagonally down, like the same way you were facing would work. I honestly can't remember.

Also, perhaps I'm digging up old bones, but DariusM27 , if Marth truly lost as many MU's as you seem to think (that's without mentioning how many 90:10, 80:20 and 70:30 MU's you listed), he'd literally be bottom tier. Even Puff's MU spread isn't THAT atrocious .

But at the time of that post you admitted you were going through a roadblock period, so your opinions were likely heavily skewed negatively. Hopefully you've pulled through that now, because Marth absolutely wins more MU's than he loses (but you're right, Marth takes quite the hit on FG; lag, and being forced to play on arguably his worst stage).

But you mentioned that Marth has been absent from highlight videos and such. Perhaps, but what I've noticed is that since his buffs and results, I've seen him a LOT more in guides and stuff as a test dummy and such (like, in character guides; previously, you'd see the typical top tiers and high tiers like Sheik, Falcon, Ness, ZSS, Diddy, Meta Knight etc. Nowadays, Marth appears in there too... [look at a lot of Izaw's old guides vs some of his most recent ones]). Perhaps people add him in there because he's good now?

Idk man, it's hard to explain my view on MUs I guess, but here's an example.

I think it's ridiculous how it's becoming popular opinion that the Marth - Mario MU is even or in Marth's favor.

The Marth player has to perform at a much higher level than the Mario player does. Mario is just copy-pasting what he always does.
Mario gets one grab and that is guaranteed 0 to 50 or 80 damage, maybe more. If he's been camping fireballs, that's probably another 15% or so on Marth. After that, he only needs about one Usmash to take the stock.
That means Mario only has to "win" neutral like twice each stock.

Marth has to get the right read on Mario's approach, without missing once. And each time Marth hits, his goal is to keep Mario out, and if he deviates from that strategy, he exposes himself.

Leo does this consistently because Leo is one of the 3 best players in the world.

Mr E and Pug both drowned in pools at ZeRo saga and Genesis 4. If MkLeo was not a Smash4 player, everyone's tier list would never have hyped up Marth.

Marth can beat any character, but so can Peach, WFT, Lucario, Palutena, DK, Bowser, ect... Imo, some of those characters are easier to use and win with consistently.

Like Mr E just played a local where he was sent to losers by some Corrin player, where Mr E barely had a small lead on the last stock of an even set, and Mr E went off stage to edge guard, and then he died after getting hit once, because that's what happens a lot when Marth goes off stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVmPyukRwY

Then he lost to John Numbers again, as he has many consecutive times now, because Marth gets camped out by any character that can camp - which is most characters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3c8ottKwvI


I feel like Mr R has lost to Leo's Marth so much because Mr R literally never tries to camp Marth out. But the two sets that Void's Sheik has beaten Leo, Void camped Leo out.

That used to be standard procedure in the Sheik Marth MU, then people just forgot how to play the game except Void.

Marth has an even MU with basically every character in the game imo, and loses to some of the "lower tier" characters, like duck hunt or Pac Man.

Mr E - one of the top ranked players using a top ranked character - lost to some random Pac Man a few times lately, pretty badly. And Pugwest got beat pretty bad by Raffti, a non top ranked Rob player. And the times Pug does win vs Raffti, it's always even.

I think Marth is top tier - if played absolutely perfectly. (But then, maybe that could be said about any character) Like, if you ever play a very good Greninja player... good freaking luck winning with Marth.

It's more difficult to play consistently with Marth than it is Mario or Diddy.

Diddy is in control of neutral most of the time, has an easier neutral, and a safer neutral - so imo he has the advantage. Diddy definitely wins the Marth MU, imo.

Sorry for writing a book, but I'm just saying - if Leo liked using Ike more, then Ike would probably be top tier right now.


Edit .
Case in point, a Vinnie style Sheik campy playstyle takes a big crap on Marth. Marth has to work so much harder than Sheik does. Its not 50/50.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jewPMNKSBA

 

[Vipermoon]

If ever I try to cancel Jab 1, I simply just hold down to crouch. Doing Jab 1 to Ftilt is easier because I can just smash the C-stick to the left/right to do the Ftilt (I use attack stick) while holding down to crouch. I find this the most reliable way to get it done.

So do you see Marth crouch briefly before the Ftilt comes out? I just don't see how this helps. I'll mess up and use Jab 2 only when the difference in hitlag between tipper and non-tipper Jab 1 affects my timing (though I still pay attention and try to compensate). Otherwise, I do it pretty well.

I sometimes try doing the C-stick diagonally to do a Jab (mainly when walking towards an opponent), but I too am not very consistent at this. I also cry a little when I am in perfect spacing for a specific tipper aerial and I get a Nair by mistake...

I know it's just so sad. Though I have to admit sometimes when the Nair accidentally comes out, it actually turns out to be the better option. But usually it's sad (bonus sad for when it kills me off-stage). What's also sad is when I get a read and a subsequent tipper Fsmash opportunity but screw it up in some way because my fingers don't work.

I can't quite get my thumb to consistently push the c-stick diagonally. Is there an art to this?

That's what I'm wondering!

Edit: Wait, if you're going to go down the "hold the control stick diagonally down" route, it has to be facing away from you? So, if I was facing to the right, I'd need to hold the control stock diagonally to the left (so basically, between 7-8 oclock)? I thought it was just diagonally down, like the same way you were facing would work. I honestly can't remember.

Yeah, that's what everyone says at least.

But you mentioned that Marth has been absent from highlight videos and such. Perhaps, but what I've noticed is that since his buffs and results, I've seen him a LOT more in guides and stuff as a test dummy and such (like, in character guides; previously, you'd see the typical top tiers and high tiers like Sheik, Falcon, Ness, ZSS, Diddy, Meta Knight etc. Nowadays, Marth appears in there too... [look at a lot of Izaw's old guides vs some of his most recent ones]). Perhaps people add him in there because he's good now?

Lol I noticed this too.

Idk man, it's hard to explain my view on MUs I guess, but here's an example.

I think it's ridiculous how it's becoming popular opinion that the Marth - Mario MU is even or in Marth's favor.

The Marth player has to perform at a much higher level than the Mario player does. Mario is just copy-pasting what he always does.
Mario gets one grab and that is guaranteed 0 to 50 or 80 damage, maybe more. If he's been camping fireballs, that's probably another 15% or so on Marth. After that, he only needs about one Usmash to take the stock.
That means Mario only has to "win" neutral like twice each stock.

Marth has to get the right read on Mario's approach, without missing once. And each time Marth hits, his goal is to keep Mario out, and if he deviates from that strategy, he exposes himself.

Leo does this consistently because Leo is one of the 3 best players in the world.

Mr E and Pug both drowned in pools at ZeRo saga and Genesis 4. If MkLeo was not a Smash4 player, everyone's tier list would never have hyped up Marth.

Marth can beat any character, but so can Peach, WFT, Lucario, Palutena, DK, Bowser, ect... Imo, some of those characters are easier to use and win with consistently.

Like Mr E just played a local where he was sent to losers by some Corrin player, where Mr E barely had a small lead on the last stock of an even set, and Mr E went off stage to edge guard, and then he died after getting hit once, because that's what happens a lot when Marth goes off stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVmPyukRwY

Then he lost to John Numbers again, as he has many consecutive times now, because Marth gets camped out by any character that can camp - which is most characters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3c8ottKwvI


I feel like Mr R has lost to Leo's Marth so much because Mr R literally never tries to camp Marth out. But the two sets that Void's Sheik has beaten Leo, Void camped Leo out.

That used to be standard procedure in the Sheik Marth MU, then people just forgot how to play the game except Void.

Marth has an even MU with basically every character in the game imo, and loses to some of the "lower tier" characters, like duck hunt or Pac Man.

Mr E - one of the top ranked players using a top ranked character - lost to some random Pac Man a few times lately, pretty badly. And Pugwest got beat pretty bad by Raffti, a non top ranked Rob player. And the times Pug does win vs Raffti, it's always even.

I think Marth is top tier - if played absolutely perfectly. (But then, maybe that could be said about any character) Like, if you ever play a very good Greninja player... good freaking luck winning with Marth.

It's more difficult to play consistently with Marth than it is Mario or Diddy.

Diddy is in control of neutral most of the time, has an easier neutral, and a safer neutral - so imo he has the advantage. Diddy definitely wins the Marth MU, imo.

Sorry for writing a book, but I'm just saying - if Leo liked using Ike more, then Ike would probably be top tier right now.


Edit .
Case in point, a Vinnie style Sheik campy playstyle takes a big crap on Marth. Marth has to work so much harder than Sheik does. Its not 50/50.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jewPMNKSBA

You make MANY very good points. But there are many issues as well. Mario also has to work hard in the MU (unless he's a better player than the Marth). There have been many Leo vs. Ally matches so far and surely you noticed the things about Ally's gameplay that Ally has to change mid-set to avoid getting hit by Marth? Things that he doesn't have to do against any other character. I can tell the Mario MU is even or advantage because when I play it, it feels like the Mario earned it if I lose. And I don't let them win easily. It seriously feels doable. And briefly about Mario's damage output: it's harder to combo Marth (esp for Mario) than it is for any other character.

And yes Marth gets camped and it's serious a thing everyone needs to stop forgetting, but he can camp SO MANY characters it's not even funny. It's entirely required to beat any of the heavy characters and you can even camp Mario. I'm usually a campy Marth so I would know. Of course, the MUs where Marth cannot camp are the ones he struggles with the most.

But you have to draw the line between who you think Marth loses to and who you don't have enough tournament experience against. And that is actually really difficult for anyone to draw but seriously, as Bowserboy said, your MU chart is the MU chart of the worst character in the game.

 

[DariusM27]

you have to draw the line between who you think Marth loses to and who you don't have enough tournament experience against. And that is actually really difficult for anyone to draw but seriously, as Bowserboy said, your MU chart is the MU chart of the worst character in the game.

I agree with that. But why do the top Marths lose when their opponent plays the camp game? Do they not have the optimal strategy or is it a MU situation like Ddd trying to win a match vs a top level Cloud.

 

[Vipermoon]

I agree with that. But why do the top Marths lose when their opponent plays the camp game? Do they not have the optimal strategy or is it a MU situation like Ddd trying to win a match vs a top level Cloud.

It is safe to say that current Marth, having significantly worse frame data and hitboxes than previous Marths, is the most susceptible to camping. Luckily for this Marth, projectiles, burst-movements (excl. Bayo), ledge strategies, and other camping methods are weaker in this game because the balancing strategy compared to previous games was to nerf and add lag here and there so nothing is broken.

Your second sentence I'd say is a mixture of both reasons. But whatever tough MUs Marth has they can't be 80/20 or 90/10 as those matchups don't exist in this game (again: the balance strategy; + rage too). I'm not even sure that he has any 70/30s.

 

[Squanchy]

What would you say is your success percentage on c-stick jabs?

80-90% right now. It's usually one of the things I practice first/most. Sometimes I'll have an up tilt come out but I attribute that to having only started implementing it in December since that's when I started with Marth.

I'd recommend playing around with it if you use tilt stick. Perfect Pivot Jab is also cool, but you can do that easily with the A Button. Unfortunately, I don't believe Marth retains his perfect pivot momentun/slides with his jab like Pit's Jab does, but it's still another useful variation of it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

80-90% right now. It's usually one of the things I practice first/most. Sometimes I'll have an up tilt come out but I attribute that to having only started implementing it in December since that's when I started with Marth.

I'd recommend playing around with it if you use tilt stick. Perfect Pivot Jab is also cool, but you can do that easily with the A Button. Unfortunately, I don't believe Marth retains his perfect pivot momentun/slides with his jab like Pit's Jab does, but it's still another useful variation of it.

Interesting... I might give this a try.

But yes, Marth doesn't retain momentum from a perfect pivot unfortunately, which sucks.

What hurts more, is that Lucina does!

And to add even more insult to injury, Marth did in Brawl too (albeit, not from a perfect pivot, but doing a Jab/Utilt from a walk carried a little momentum, as well as spotdodging from a dash, of which both are present for Lucina in Smash 4)!

 

[Vipermoon]

Interesting... I might give this a try.

But yes, Marth doesn't retain momentum from a perfect pivot unfortunately, which sucks.

What hurts more, is that Lucina does!

And to add even more insult to injury, Marth did in Brawl too (albeit, not from a perfect pivot, but doing a Jab/Utilt from a walk carried a little momentum, as well as spotdodging from a dash, of which both are present for Lucina in Smash 4)!

My theory is they wanted him to have a clear tipper zone in every situation, so no sliding. Similar to how to added a tipper to his sword trail.

 

[Bowserboy3]

My theory is they wanted him to have a clear tipper zone in every situation, so no sliding. Similar to how to added a tipper to his sword trail.

That makes sense actually when you think about it like that.

But about the tipper trail, it still bugs me incredibly that Dolphin Slash and Counter use the "tipper" sword trails...