Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Zano]

I'm like 100% sure falco is worse than marth and arguably the worst character in the game but ok

 

[Shaya]

Maybe, maybe not. Falco wrecks with up throw up air

 

[Josh Infiesto]

I've been playing Smash 4 quite a bit lately, and have seen online that some players are able to use Marth/Lucina's Shieldbreaker to propel them a substantial distance horizontally while in the air. Checking guides and the wiki confirms that Shieldbreaker was buffed to have a small amount of horizontal propulsion. My own experimentation that simply using shieldbreaker in the air produces a small amount of horizontal propulsion, however nowhere near the levels I've seen online. Does anyone know how to do this? I tried inputting a direction after starting shieldbreaker, much like Dedede's gordos require, but it didn't seem to do anything.

 

[theleeryone]

You just need to charge it. No tricks involved.

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ Josh Infiesto ! First of all welcome to Smashboards! I moved your post to the Marth Q&A Thread. Please refer to this thread to find answers or ask any questions regarding Marth's game play / mechanics. As @ theleeryone stated you just need to charge the shield breaker and you will get a bit more horizontal momentum while in the air.

 

[LoreLes]

No one is as bad as Samus.

so marth's too bad to be used? thats a shame.

Not really bad to the point where he can't be used but it means that you really need to dedicate yourself to this character more than ever.

 

[DaftFunk420]

Hi guys. Been playing around with marth lately. love the spacing he can create. Got a question tho.

Been looking around on the guides and haven't rlli seen this. In brawl, u could easily wall of pain with Marth SH Fair cuz u can pull out two in one SH. needless to say this is gone in Sm4sh.

However if u start the first hit of dancing blade off of a SH and only the first hit, u can pull out a fair before u land. ok cool w/e cuz forward b makes u lag a bit more in the air so it is reasonable to assume u can throw out other moves in a shorthop.

What I noticed after was the thing that I went woah! the landing lag on the fair is greatly reduced, allowing me to go into another SH Forward B Fair attack, thus creating a wall of pain.

So to test this, I then tried SH but then instead of immediately Fair, I would wait a bit so that I could then Fair and fastfall into the ground DURING the attack animation. this consistently yielded less landing lag than my previous attempts at a SH Fair FF'd.

I was wondering. is this a thing? and I've just missed out on it? cuz this effectively gives Marth some nice wall of attacks. if ur going for a single Fair, it should always be done with a FF DURING the attack animation?

I could be just completely saying something everyone knows. lemme know!

 

[EternalFlame]

Hi guys. Been playing around with marth lately. love the spacing he can create. Got a question tho.

Been looking around on the guides and haven't rlli seen this. In brawl, u could easily wall of pain with Marth SH Fair cuz u can pull out two in one SH. needless to say this is gone in Sm4sh.

However if u start the first hit of dancing blade off of a SH and only the first hit, u can pull out a fair before u land. ok cool w/e cuz forward b makes u lag a bit more in the air so it is reasonable to assume u can throw out other moves in a shorthop.

What I noticed after was the thing that I went woah! the landing lag on the fair is greatly reduced, allowing me to go into another SH Forward B Fair attack, thus creating a wall of pain.

So to test this, I then tried SH but then instead of immediately Fair, I would wait a bit so that I could then Fair and fastfall into the ground DURING the attack animation. this consistently yielded less landing lag than my previous attempts at a SH Fair FF'd.

I was wondering. is this a thing? and I've just missed out on it? cuz this effectively gives Marth some nice wall of attacks. if ur going for a single Fair, it should always be done with a FF DURING the attack animation?

I could be just completely saying something everyone knows. lemme know!

Typically FF during FAirs cause landing lag, and normally isn't favorable when your opponent reads and blocks the hit. Glad to see you've found the SH DB (Dancing Blade/Forward B) setup on your own xD But I'm not so sure that you'll get less landing lag for doing FAir after it. You should still be able to jump up and go for another air DB, but the landing lag is still there and dangerous to have. FF FAir may reduce the landing lag a bit, but I'm not too sure about that - it's just usually not advised as strong opponents can just block and grab you after it.

The whole wall of pain you mentioned too is similar to what another friend of mine suggested to me - the SH DB loop. But its done with the UAir instead of FAir, due to the FAir pushing them too far away to actually be able to follow up more effectively (like, less time for your opponent to get out of the followup that is). Perhaps against heavy opponents this is possible, but regular weight and lighter probably will get out quite easily from the followup if using the FAir after the DB.

So to answer your question on the SH DB, yep, that's been written on xD The FAir getting less landing lag from the setup and FF however, that may need some more investigating. Likely Shaya, Emblem Lord, or Locuan will be able to answer this question from their data gathering more than I could.

 

[Locuan]

Hi guys. Been playing around with marth lately. love the spacing he can create. Got a question tho.

Hey DaftFunk, first of all welcome to Smashboards. I moved your posts to the Q&A thread! This is the thread we utilize to ask any questions regarding Marth's game play in Smash 4.

On to your question. You are right, you cannot do double aerials from a short hop in this game. The landing lag on F-air is 18 frames. This is 4 frames less than the landing lag the air dodge gives. You will always get this landing lag when you touch the ground after a F-air unless you perform a rising F-air which allows the animation to end while still in the short hop. Anyways, yes you can do DB1 > F-air from a short hop but you will still receive the landing lag from F-air when touching the ground. You can also do a short hop rising F-air and then DB1 although I'm not sure if this gives more landing lag or not due to DB1 properties; @ Shaya . Anyways, you could Fast Fall F-air after performing a rising F-air but it has to be after the animation ends, if not you will be subjected to the 18 frames of landing lag again.

 

[KoM]

I have a quick question. I'm almost done mastering how to perform perfect pivots, what would anyone recommend the c-stick be set to for Marth specifically to most benefit him? Tilts or Smashes? I currently use it for Smashes but I'm thinking tilts would be better.

 

[Locuan]

I have a quick question. I'm almost done mastering how to perform perfect pivots, what would anyone recommend the c-stick be set to for Marth specifically to most benefit him? Tilts or Smashes? I currently use it for Smashes but I'm thinking tilts would be better.

I've kept it to Smash attacks. However, this is more reliant on reads since Smash attacks do have a lot of ending lag, so missing one after the perfect pivot still places you in a tough spot. Perfect pivoting in general allows you to space tippers correctly if you do it right. For Lucina I utilize tilts, since she does get a higher momentum conservation with her U-tilt for some reason. I believe others should give you their insights though.

 

[KoM]

I've kept it to Smash attacks. However, this is more reliant on reads since Smash attacks do have a lot of ending lag, so missing one after the perfect pivot still places you in a tough spot. Perfect pivoting in general allows you to space tippers correctly if you do it right. For Lucina I utilize tilts, since she does get a higher momentum conservation with her U-tilt for some reason. I believe others should give you their insights though.

Yeah, I was thinking of keeping it to Smashes just because of pivot tippers but I'd just need practice. Hm. Anyone else have other thoughts?

 

[Andromon58]

When do you guys choose to use DB on the ground? I find I dont use it very often, opting instead to jab or Fair...

 

[KoM]

When do you guys choose to use DB on the ground? I find I dont use it very often, opting instead to jab or Fair...

I find it a good punish for laggy characters, and sometimes I'm able to do a repetitive 1-2 DB jab and then trick them into running into the full four strokes. Not to mention the down DB can poke through shields sometimes.

It's a great move for baits in general and it really makes them respect Marth's range and options because you can use it pretty creatively.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I use it to reset trap situations and as a punish.

 

[Radirgy]

Is there a list of kill %'s for Marth's up throw? I've been up throwing characters who are in the 150-180% range and they have been living.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He needs rage.

 

[Radirgy]

How much? I would have thought 50% was good but I've found out often that it needs more than that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Around 100% from my experience.

 

[Radirgy]

So say they are high % but I'm low % what throw should I go for. I can't combo off D-throw at that point because they bounce too high. Do I just throw them off the stage and go for the ledge guard?

 

[Charls]

Dthrow and uthrow work just fine for setting up or reseting traps if you get a grab around that range. Closer to the edge, throwing them off is also an option to then edgeguard or prepare for a ledge trap. Of note, your uthrow can kill at lower percentages and with less rage on high platforms, such as Battlefield's uppermost platform or some of Skyloft's and Delfino's transformations. If you get grabs up there you could net some early kills.

 

[Shaya]

Hey Charls, if you don't mind using your profile settings to set a text colour rather than manually doing it yourself that would be good (your green doesn't go on my olive green background and others can choose to turn off seeing other's automatic text colors).

Marth's up throw kills Mario at 178% no rage, no DI.
Think of it like this. For every percent you are as you're going above 40%, half of that amount can be taken off that character's death percent.
So by 100% I'm looking to kill mario at around 130 to maybe 140%.

 

[Locuan]

Hey Charls, if you don't mind using your profile settings to set a text colour rather than manually doing it yourself...

... you can do that? Thanks, Shaya! D:

 

[rawrimamonster]

I mighta found the stupidest thing ever with Smash 4 marth, I wanna know if this has been found already before I waste my time posting a thread about it.

Was playing against a Rosalina in For glory, and I HILT fsmashed her (while facing her) to 73%, she flew in the opposite direction from the fsmash (behind me), and it killed her from 3 quarters of the way on the right side of the stage all the way to the left blast zone. I think this might be a legitimate bug. They were locked in stun the entire time, and I wasn't in rage either.

 

[Shaya]

Rosalina's height makes her get tippered by things at wacky distances.

She could've been charging a smash or had extremely poor DI otherwise perhaps.

 

[RocketClauncher]

Yeah, I was thinking of keeping it to Smashes just because of pivot tippers but I'd just need practice. Hm. Anyone else have other thoughts?

I have the c stick set to tilts and it works amazing. Perfect pivoting into forward tilt is quick and gives you a ton of range thanks to added momentum. Great for spacing.

 

[KoM]

Rosalina's height makes her get tippered by things at wacky distances.

She could've been charging a smash or had extremely poor DI otherwise perhaps.

I used to be so afraid of Rosalumas when messing around on FG but damn, that colossal chick's hurt boxes are just so exploitable to the Hero King. Seriously, I've gotten a good number of KOs by faking her out and short hop SB headshotting her while she charges a smash.

 

[Zano]

then you fight a good rosalina and realize she's impossible to touch

 

[Funkermonster]

Best punish tools from a distance? Transitioning from playing Lucina (who's pretty much the same character but worse), I have decided to go Marth for a while and haven't really played the game in about a week, so I wouldn't exactly call myself new to Marth and I've been told in the past my Lucina is decent (but not great) with fine spacing and gimping. Nevertheless, I find my execution and gameplan a lot helluva sloppier than it was before, and I find myself unable to punish things as easily online and have resorted to doing Dash Attacks far more often than before, since I forgot what else what I can punish with when my opponents are too far for a smash or tilt, which is seriously hurting my game now.

Also a side question against a Marth orLucina: Is there a way safely ensure that I edgeguard them without taking too much damage (whether it be a ditto match or with almost any character)? Might be character specific, but even though I'm aware their recovery is bad, I sometimes hesitate on attempting to attack Marcina while he's/she's offstage or when landing back on the ground because I'm afraid they're gonna use counter or Dair to knock me away while still being able to return to the stage, and I end up giving them free recoveries (another thing that's become sloppy of me). One time when I was playing Charizard against a Marth, his UpB stagespiked me while I tried to gimp him offstage and Im the one who ended up dying trying to kill him, and I learned his UpB has ivincibility so I get a little scared of that too.

 

[Locuan]

Also a side question against a Marth orLucina: Is there a way safely ensure that I edgeguard them without taking too much damage (whether it be a ditto match or with almost any character)?

Most of the time I stay on stage close to the ledge but at the appropriate distance that I can cover their recovery options from the ledge. Those being jumping from it, attacking, standing, get up attack, or rolls. This has gotten me more results than going after them off stage for the same reasons you mentioned.

 

[Spoice]

Been taking Marth a lot more seriously later, realized I gotta space a lot more. What are my options other than down tilt? I'm thinking I could lead it right into the tipped hitbox of a f smash.

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ Spoice . First of all, welcome to Smashboards! I moved your thread to the Marth Q&A Thread. Here you can ask all the game-play questions you may have and other users will help you out! Additionally, you can also help out other members by answering their questions.

Now to answer your question. By spacing tools, I believe you are referring to those moves that you can utilize in the neutral game. There is a great thread/guide that can help you out with this; @ Emblem Lord 's Promotion to Great Lord.

 

[Funkermonster]

Most of the time I stay on stage close to the ledge but at the appropriate distance that I can cover their recovery options from the ledge. Those being jumping from it, attacking, standing, get up attack, or rolls. This has gotten me more results than going after them off stage for the same reasons you mentioned.

Ok, sounds great. But just wondering, is there a universal guide anywhere on options for when opponents are on the ledge? I've always been pretty terrible at that.

 

[Novaseer]

Has it been figured out yet how to calculate shield stun? I know it's dependent on the attack's damage, which is affected by stale moves--there's also Marth's hit lag modifiers--but I haven't found a formula for getting the exact frames. It'd be great if I could at least get the frames for Marth's D-tilt.

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

Hi guys,

I'm really having trouble playing vs particular characters such as Fox/Falcon/Mario who have the most annoying dash attacks that come out really strong and fast.

I've tried to shield grab on many occasions but most of the time their dash attack will go through my shield and they'll end up behind me where I'm unable to punish or grab them.

I've even tried spot dodging and I can dodge the attack, but when I turn to punish they simply roll away to safety.

I also get juggled/trapped when I'm launched because I don't know how to safely get back to stage other than using the ledge or hoping to land a counter as I land on stage; it's really irritating because a lot of people will abuse landing lag and dash attack you into the air again.

I'm quite an aggressive player, and one of the reasons I picked up Marth was because I wanted to learn a more patient, methodical approach to the neutral game but right now it feels like all I'm doing is playing defensively/reactively to my opponent rather than manipulating the flow of the battle myself - dash attacks are one of the reasons for this, but in the bigger picture I have a lot more to improve.

 

[Langston777]

short hop fair, retreating nair, OoS bair/fair/dair (dair is punishable at low %) or just upsmash it. pretty sure those dash attacks have reasonable recovery frames, and marth's disjoint will help you stuff them if spaced correctly. might not be able to usmash fox's though, but it's definitely punishable. if you're unsure you can just OoS ftilt or dancing blade out of shield, you don't always have to grab. just pick the best option that puts you in a favorable follow up position.

one thing to remember is that if you fail to punish a dash attack, don't sweat it - just reset. if you get impatient against falcon or fox you're most likely going to eat **** for it.

 

[Locuan]

Hi there @ SleeplessInKyoto ! First of all, welcome to the Marth character boards. Secondly, I moved your post to the Marth Q&A thread. Here you can post your Marth questions and other users will be able to help you out. You can also answer any questions that other users have posted.

 

[Langston777]

I actually realize I have a bit of a question myself.

suprisingly enough, I tend to struggle with Marth's favorable match ups - Jiggs, Mario, Luigi, etc. Especially Jiggs at the moment. These have been said to be in Marths favor but I don't see it when I'm playing it. I feel like they're too dangerous up close and it's difficult to combat them without making trades or getting overwhelmed, because they can easily abuse Marths lag to land a hit and start doing mix ups when they get near you. I'm assuming I'm just doing a terrible job of walling them out and using the right tools, but I dunno, my matches with these characters seem to be very inconsistent. I have literally no idea what to do when a Jigglypuff gets close to you, because her OoS options beat Marths easy, pound will break my shield, and rolling can have me eating a rest.

Is there a method for playing defensively with Marth against characters with such scary offense like theirs? Or perhaps a video I could study?

 

[Novaseer]

I don't have a video to say for sure, but if you're having trouble with those specific characters getting too close, then I'd guess it's a matter of practicing reactions. Against Jigglypuff for instance, if you play patient and stand your ground, it's simple to keep her out through smart use of F-tilt and jab. Don't dash, just walk, and attack only when she's in range. If she's in the air, use F-tilt when she gets near. F-tilt beats all her aerial attack options, so all she can do in that position is try a laggy air dodge. If Jigglypuff approaches on the ground, stop her with jab. It's safe on shield, beats most of her offensive tools, and will catch any sudden short hops from her. Quick reactions with the right tools will shut her down. Don't get greedy and chase her, that's just playing into her hit and run game and giving her the openings she needs. Instead slowly bring her to the edge with an intimidating walk.

I hope this helps! If you still need more info on the other matchups, it might be quicker to ask in the match up analysis thread.

 

[Langston777]

I see. Rolling behind is always an option i have to look out for though, and a Jiggs airdodging into ftilt would probably put Marth at a disadvantage, no?

I'm struggling to figure out how lame and safe I should be playing this match up. I like to hit buttons, don't really think this is the match up for that. I'll try incorporating marth's jab though. I'll see if I can't stick to a few buttons that work more.