Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[ZeroJanitor]

So I was playing around with Marth just a minute ago and I was on the ledge, I jumped up and immediately down-aired, but instead of a rising down-air, I just landed on the stage from the ledge and slid a little bit, almost like a waveland. I haven't been able to replicate it, but is this a known thing? If so, how can it be replicated?

 

[Cazdon]

So I was playing around with Marth just a minute ago and I was on the ledge, I jumped up and immediately down-aired, but instead of a rising down-air, I just landed on the stage from the ledge and slid a little bit, almost like a waveland. I haven't been able to replicate it, but is this a known thing? If so, how can it be replicated?

Can you act out of sliding? If you can then it might have some serious ramifications. If you can't then it's a jump cancel, and the sliding is landing lag.

 

[Locuan]

So I was playing around with Marth just a minute ago and I was on the ledge, I jumped up and immediately down-aired, but instead of a rising down-air, I just landed on the stage from the ledge and slid a little bit, almost like a waveland. I haven't been able to replicate it, but is this a known thing? If so, how can it be replicated?

Somewhat similar to this? Raziek posted that on the Marth Lucina Gameplay Coalition Thread around the time the 3DS version was out. We still have no idea why it happened.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Here's a video

 

[Locuan]

Ah that slide he had while standing was due to Ganondorf pulling Marth in with his up-tilt. Ganondorf's up-tilt has that property.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

But he didn't use the uptilt until I was already standing up.

Looking at the replay, it does look like there's landing lag so it was probably a jump cancel, although I still don't know how I did it

 

[diclonyuus]

Hello guys, first post on the forum :-) I've seen you welcoming new players a lot, so here I am.

I played all the previous titles very casually, and this is the first title that has an online mode that I'm really enjoying - so much that I've even looked into a local scene, sadly there is not much activity around here. But I digress!

I've started picking Marth a lot after I went through all the characters and wrote down pros and cons about their playstyle that I enjoyed. In the end I decided to go for him because I feel like he "asserts his dominance" around his zone, and that is a playstyle that I enjoy playing - putting pressure on the opponents by being close to them and spacing them away from me with my tilts.

Now that you've read this overly long introduction, here are a few of my questions:

- I have the feeling that dashing as Marth in neutral game is almost always disadvantageous. Would you agree on this stance? If yes, how do you manage to walk instead of dashing consistently? I'm used to just being able to jam my stick to the side from Melee, but in Sm4sh that makes me insta-dash.

- As a result from #1, I've started trying to cancel my dash with shields - people described it as being instantaneous. I have not yet managed to get my character to stop immediately with a shield, and hence I've started SH FAir a lot out of dash as to not put myself in an unfavorable position from the Dash Attack ending lag. Is cancelling a dash with shield possible, and good, on Marth? Can you maybe link me to a video where it's explained well, maybe I'm just doing it very wrong

- I have trouble learning perfect pivoting consistently. Is it really that useful on Marth? Would you say that it is a "must-learn" technique like Wavedashing is for Melee?

- What are Marth's best kill options out of Grab? I play FG a lot and tend to end up against excessive rollers. This gave me trouble in the beginning, but lurking the forums and trying to understand this game on a more competitive level - I ended up reading a lot of dashes on those people correctly. Unfortunately due to the dash attack being rather slow, I end up grabbing to punish dashers oftentimes, especially if they're fast rollers who got used to me following and just end up rolling twice.

- Alternatively to the question above - what are good options I can use to follow a rolling opponent who has really fast movement (Mac, for example)? I've heard this being called "tech chase", right?

I thank you in advance for helping a newbie out!

 

[Cazdon]

Hello guys, first post on the forum :-) I've seen you welcoming new players a lot, so here I am.

I played all the previous titles very casually, and this is the first title that has an online mode that I'm really enjoying - so much that I've even looked into a local scene, sadly there is not much activity around here. But I digress!

I've started picking Marth a lot after I went through all the characters and wrote down pros and cons about their playstyle that I enjoyed. In the end I decided to go for him because I feel like he "asserts his dominance" around his zone, and that is a playstyle that I enjoy playing - putting pressure on the opponents by being close to them and spacing them away from me with my tilts.

Now that you've read this overly long introduction, here are a few of my questions:

- I have the feeling that dashing as Marth in neutral game is almost always disadvantageous. Would you agree on this stance? If yes, how do you manage to walk instead of dashing consistently? I'm used to just being able to jam my stick to the side from Melee, but in Sm4sh that makes me insta-dash.

- As a result from #1, I've started trying to cancel my dash with shields - people described it as being instantaneous. I have not yet managed to get my character to stop immediately with a shield, and hence I've started SH FAir a lot out of dash as to not put myself in an unfavorable position from the Dash Attack ending lag. Is cancelling a dash with shield possible, and good, on Marth? Can you maybe link me to a video where it's explained well, maybe I'm just doing it very wrong

- I have trouble learning perfect pivoting consistently. Is it really that useful on Marth? Would you say that it is a "must-learn" technique like Wavedashing is for Melee?

- What are Marth's best kill options out of Grab? I play FG a lot and tend to end up against excessive rollers. This gave me trouble in the beginning, but lurking the forums and trying to understand this game on a more competitive level - I ended up reading a lot of dashes on those people correctly. Unfortunately due to the dash attack being rather slow, I end up grabbing to punish dashers oftentimes, especially if they're fast rollers who got used to me following and just end up rolling twice.

- Alternatively to the question above - what are good options I can use to follow a rolling opponent who has really fast movement (Mac, for example)? I've heard this being called "tech chase", right?

I thank you in advance for helping a newbie out!

First off, welcome to Smashboards! Glad you picked Marth and glad you posted here! Let's try and answer some questions.
First, dashing is indeed very disadvantageous, at least from my experience. It is possible to shield during a dash but NOT during the initial dash startup animation, which is very long for Marth. (If that makes sense.) SH Fair is a great solution to this.

Perfect Pivot is an advanced tech that will require a lot of practice, I myself have no knowledge of the move other than its possible applications, such as spacing and mindgames. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't a must learn YET, until all the high level players learn the tech and get into a league of their own.

For Marth's kill options out of grab, he's basically got 2. If they are at very high %, like 120-150, you can try up throw, it can kill light and mid weight character effectively. But your other option is to throw them back or forward off the edge and try to gimp them, that's where Marth can get a lot of early kills this way.

Finally, to know a tech chase you must know a what a tech, not technique, is. Teching is where your character is in a tumbling animation and you hit shield just as you touch the ground, so instead of bouncing, you roll with I-frames. Punishing a roll is very similar to tech chasing but tech chasing is just punishing a tech instead. And a good way to punish rolls is to you dancing blades, it can be hard to predict opponents, and it's not always the safest, but it does do the most damage.

Anyway, thanks for reading that and welcome to smashboards!

 

[diclonyuus]

First off, welcome to Smashboards! Glad you picked Marth and glad you posted here! Let's try and answer some questions.
First, dashing is indeed very disadvantageous, at least from my experience. It is possible to shield during a dash but NOT during the initial dash startup animation, which is very long for Marth. (If that makes sense.) SH Fair is a great solution to this.

Perfect Pivot is an advanced tech that will require a lot of practice, I myself have no knowledge of the move other than its possible applications, such as spacing and mindgames. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't a must learn YET, until all the high level players learn the tech and get into a league of their own.

For Marth's kill options out of grab, he's basically got 2. If they are at very high %, like 120-150, you can try up throw, it can kill light and mid weight character effectively. But your other option is to throw them back or forward off the edge and try to gimp them, that's where Marth can get a lot of early kills this way.

Finally, to know a tech chase you must know a what a tech, not technique, is. Teching is where your character is in a tumbling animation and you hit shield just as you touch the ground, so instead of bouncing, you roll with I-frames. Punishing a roll is very similar to tech chasing but tech chasing is just punishing a tech instead. And a good way to punish rolls is to you dancing blades, it can be hard to predict opponents, and it's not always the safest, but it does do the most damage.

Anyway, thanks for reading that and welcome to smashboards!

Thanks for the advice! What you did was basically remind me of the basics of Marth, which I'll often admittedly end up losing over the course of a long session. Let's see how fthrow gimp will work out for me :-)

As for punishing a back roll with db, I thank you for the advice! It does indeed come out faster than dash attack. I used to do this after dashes, but I forgot. I'll report back tonight with more questions, depending on the outcome of what you've said so far.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Sorry wrong thread :x

 

[Charls]

Perfect Pivoting is a great microspacing tool, but nothing essential to the point where one "must" learn it. PPs are a great help when fishing for Fsmash tippers although that is the only one of his moves that retains his slide momentum as far as I know. You can perfect pivot out of trots so while that does have rather significant applications, the issue is being cosnsistent with them.

 

[Cazdon]

So anyone know any good pairs for Marth in doubles? Me and my friend did a Marth/Lucina and made lots of jokes about foxy grandpa.

But in a more serious manner, are there any particularly useful complements to his playstyle, or playstyles that he compliments?
We're trying to get into doubles and just relying on our singles skill isn't the best way. I know doubles inherently requires teamwork which we have sometimes, but I want to know about Marth specifically and his place in doubles.

I guess what works for will work with too in doubles, so bring those comments too!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is a character that slows the game down to his pace and wants to dictate the flow of the match. So a faster character that can rush people down and break up formations works well. Sonic I feel is a good partner and can cover Marth. Sheik is also a solid choice. ZSS is good since she and Marth can chase after a charged paralyzer shot for safer aggro play. Marth can seal stocks quickly with tippers so any char that can get grabs fast is a nice choice. CF comes to mind.

 

[Cazdon]

Thank's Emblem Lord! I always appreciate your concise and to the point responses.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is pretty solid in doubles in general, I don't feel there are any particular characters he does the best with, you tend to want to play as kill-move-only / stock tank otherwise. Marth can do pretty well in a lot of chaos, especially if it means enemy's shielding less. For strategic choices, you're probably looking at a character which either stays mostly grounded or mostly in the air (with Marth taking the alternative).
Heavies can manage the ground extremely well and hit confirms between the two are disgusting
Projectile-rich characters can also take control of the ground or air and can tend to help Marth with his commitment issues by backing him up (all of his specials can be game-breaking).
Good air/ground buddies: (!!!)(!!!!)

Never forget , who is almost always everyone's top 5 partner at worst (unless they have specific niches/gimmicks).

 

[Saturn_]

I've noticed that Marth's Dair comes from different directions depending on whether he's facing left or right, because of where his sword arm is located. Does that effect sweet spotting his Dair? I feel like I basically never get offstage spikes with him. I spent ten minutes Dair-ing a level 3 Falco and never properly spiked him offstage.

 

[Locuan]

Down Air
6.7 Units Horizontal Displacement; 3.5 size; Sakurai Angle on sourspot, 90° on tipper, 270° on spike
11 / 13 / 14 Damage, 0.7 / 1.25 / 1.0 Hit lag modifier
Hits 9-14. Meteor Smash hitbox on frame 11 centered on body
Ends frame 59; 28 frames on landing 3-54
So basically, it's only one frame where the hitbox for the meteor is out.
@ Saturn_ .

 

[Saturn_]

In other words, you need to be frame prefect to spike off dair? Christ...

 

[Shaya]

Honestly, in both Brawl and Melee the main spacing you achieved to get spikes was from that single frame hitbox (although side tippers at start up or the end were common too).

Think of it like this. HIT PEOPLE DIRECTLY BELOW YOU ONLY (or around your legs pre-dairing); that are traveling in that direction and you'll get the spike every time, promise.

 

[Crawfish]

is there a move that reliably gets a good tech chase situation going? i used to think fair did but recently people have just been jumping before hitting the ground.

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ Crawfish . I moved your post to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please utilize this thread whenever you have any questions regarding Marth's game-play.

 

[Crawfish]

sorry, i don't have any idea what i'm doing

 

[gByron]

Hi great lords, sorry for noob question but how a good player uses c stick for aerials effectively? I am new to the competitive scene and doing decently with marth(and ike). But the lack of controlled aerial momentum like retreating airs or marths falling up air cripples my progress. Should I be using the c stick everytime for an aerial to act easily? Should I be mixing c stick aerials with a button aerials? Should I be jumping with my left trigger or something? Or should I mix my jumps with either y button and analog stick?

 

[Cazdon]

Hi, sorry for noob question but how a good player uses c stick for aerials effectively? I am new to the competitive scene and doing decently with marth(and ike). But the lack of controlled aerial momentum like retreating airs or marths falling up air cripples my progress. Should I be using the c stick everytime for an aerial to act easily? Should I be mixing c stick aerials with a button aerials? Should I be jumping with my left trigger or something? Or should I mix my jumps with either y button and analog stick?

Hi there! The c-stick can be used for aerials but I'm sorry to have to give you a lame answer, you have to find and figure out how to do it best for you. The c-stick aerials are good to learn because you can input the aerial while retreating. Me personally, I just pull out a f-air and then immediately move backwards, while this isn't the most efficient way, it's the way I learned to do it. I hope you can figure out what way works best for you, as no one can tell you how you should play.

 

[Ormsson]

Recently I tested Marth out and I really enjoy playing him, I think I know the basics of Marth, like spacing and killing, but if someone experienced could give me some advice on using him that would be awesome, anyway I think Marth has great potential and I encourage anyone to try him out, he's really unexplored imo

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ Ormsson ! First of all, welcome to smashboards! I moved your post to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please utilize this thread whenever you have any gameplay questions regarding Marth.

Now answering your question, there are a lot of resources you can read up on to improve your Marth. The Marth Competitive Resource Thread, which is pinned to our character board, contains links to all of those resources.

 

[Crawfish]

Here's a video

you just fast fell onto the ground

 

[gByron]

Hi there! The c-stick can be used for aerials but I'm sorry to have to give you a lame answer, you have to find and figure out how to do it best for you. The c-stick aerials are good to learn because you can input the aerial while retreating. Me personally, I just pull out a f-air and then immediately move backwards, while this isn't the most efficient way, it's the way I learned to do it. I hope you can figure out what way works best for you, as no one can tell you how you should play.

Thanks for response! I still have a lot to do with this character. C stick is viable. Marths up air has little lag but I can mistakingly spend my second jump while performing it. Fast falling up airs are essential for combo game imo. C stick feels safer for retreating fairs. As for dair, it has the risk of fast falling for me doing normally. I use analog stick to quickly turn around after a bair to fast fall fair. I use it for quick reactions. Yeah, you are right it is just me. Some prefers tilt c stick but I like smash c stick since I always perform tilts with analog. From now on I want to experiment the left trigger jumping and find the way that works best for me!

 

[ReRaze]

what frames do marths special moves come out?

 

[Locuan]

what frames do marths special moves come out?

There might be some differences in terms of hit-lag modifiers, damage, etc., but this is Lucina's frame data. You can find the info on special moves for her there. I'll try and work on Marth's frame data soon.

 

[BATMN]

Hey guys!

So recently, I've started maining marth. I like his range and gimp ability, but I really do not know his playstyle. I am aggressive when it comes to fighting but marth seems to be more of a defensive fighter. Is this correct? Can I play Marth aggresively or should I stick with defense? This would really help.

Thank you!

 

[Locuan]

Hey there @ BATMN I moved your post to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please utilize this thread whenever you have any questions regarding Marth's gameplay. Additionally, the Marth Competitive Resource Thread has a lot of information regarding how to utilize Marth in a competitive environment. I recommend reading The Blade of Two Fates guide by EternalFlame and the Promotion to Great Lord guide by Emblem Lord. When you are done with those the other threads linked in the Competitive Resource Thread, such as Marth's Traps, and List of True Combos for example will be very beneficial.

 

[BATMN]

Hey there @ BATMN I moved your post to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please utilize this thread whenever you have any questions regarding Marth's gameplay. Additionally, the Marth Competitive Resource Thread has a lot of information regarding how to utilize Marth in a competitive environment. I recommend reading The Blade of Two Fates guide by EternalFlame and the Promotion to Great Lord guide by Emblem Lord. When you are done with those the other threads linked in the Competitive Resource Thread, such as Marth's Traps, and List of True Combos for example will be very beneficial.

Alright, thank you! I'm new to the marth forums, so I'm not to familiar with how it works. Thank you!

 

[fox67890]

Hey Marths! Fox main here, but I do seriously submain Marth. I just have a quick question for you guys.

So normally, Marth's dtilt is a very laggy move. Thankfully, it has IASA frames, so it can be canceled into a ton of different stuff like shield.

I have a question as to buffering moves after a dtilt is performed. Specifically, what would the inputs be to buffer turn around grab from the dtilt? I've tried various things, but the only thing I could come up with is double tapping backwards very quickly and then immediately grabbing. That feels kinda awkward though. Is there a better/proper way?

I am asking because once I dtilt a shield with Marth, sometimes the enemy will roll into me. I want to punish with turn around grab, but I'm having this buffering problem. Perhaps I should stick to turn around dancing blade punish?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is with all chars. No one can simply just turn around and grab anymore out of IASA frames. You need to do a Dance trot. Dash forward then instantly dash in the opposite direction. That is the fastest way.

 

[fox67890]

Actually, I found that if you "slowly" tap backwards once and then grab, you can turn around and grab that way. Idk if that's faster than what you mentioned, but it seems to work fine. I think I'll stick with the method I just found.
I was wondering why I was having difficulty though. In brawl you could easily do the turn around grab. I didn't know they took that feature out :x. That's unfortunate. Thanks though!

 

[chococrow]

hi im a marth main from cali and i want to get better with marth. ive been playing him since melee but i dont know how to get better with him. theres not many people around me that can help me so i was wondering if anyone can play my marth and give me some tips.

 

[Locuan]

Hi there @ chococrow ! First of all, welcome to the Marth Character Boards! I moved your post here to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Whenever you have questions regarding Marth gameplay in Smash 4 please utilize this thread. Now there are a lot of resources you can utilize to improve your Marth play. The Marth Competitive Resource Thread that is pinned to our character board has a lot of links to very helpful guides and topics. I recommend reading The blade of two fates guide by EternalFlame which covers a lot of what you need to know. Next, read up on the Promotion to Great Lord Thread by Emblem Lord. When those two guides are covered, go ahead and read the links that are listed in the Competitive Resource thread. All of this should help you out greatly. If you have any questions after that, feel free to ask them in this thread.

 

[Estwood]

Been playing Marth a bit and game and was wondering, what are some (guaranteed or mix-ups) setups where Marth can get a tipper?

 

[Locuan]

Hey at @ Estwood . Welcome to the Marth Boards. I moved your post to the Marth Question and Answer Thread. Please use this thread whenever you have questions regarding Marth's gameplay. Well, one I can tell you about is tipper F-air > tipper F-smash at lower-mid percents if the opponent lands on the ground and does not tech. Most setups, such as these, depend on reads.