Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[cerealkiller]

How strong is Marth's fsmash? I got hit by it toward the right of an omega stage at 78% (as Greninja, against a 92% damage Marth), and got blasted off.

Marth's falchion has a "tipper effect". Which is pretty strong.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tipper f-smash is one of the highest base knockback moves in the game. Pretty sure only Ganondorks Warlock Punch, Bowser's f-smash and a handful of other moves outrank it in terms of pure knockback.

Basically if you eat this near the edge of a stage and you are over 60%, you will die as long as it's fresh. Hell, even stale you will still probably die.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Tipper f-smash is one of the highest base knockback moves in the game. Pretty sure only Ganondorks Warlock Punch, Bowser's f-smash and a handful of other moves outrank it in terms of pure knockback.

Basically if you eat this near the edge of a stage and you are over 60%, you will die as long as it's fresh. Hell, even stale you will still probably die.

So true. But there's also SB which is even stronger.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure charged f-smash has slightly higher knockback. And I mean SLIGHT. Like, will kill 1% or 2% higher then charged SB. Uncharged f-smash though def kills faster then uncharged SB.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Nope, SB kills a touch earlier.

Fully charged Shield Breaker does 23%, and kills Mario at 49% in training from his starting position on FD.
Fully charged f-smash does 21%, and kills from 58%.
So for punishing broken shields, Shield Breaker is your best option.

 

[Moydow]

Uncharged f-smash definitely kills earlier than uncharged SB, but fully charged, tipper SB will kill maybe 1-2% earlier than tipper f-smash. Can't test exact %s for Marth right now.
(should also mention that the above was on 3DS. do the blastzones differ between 3DS and Wii U FD?)

 

[Shaya]

In Brawl it was only a 1% difference... with I think SB still being stronger.
If that's where you're getting confused EL.

 

[Moydow]

Okay, after actually testing it on Wii U, it looks like tipper f-smash has the slight advantage - 27%, as opposed to SB's 28%. Tipper f-smash also does 1% more damage (25 vs. SB's 24), so for Marth, f-smash is the better option.

For Lucina on Wii U, it's 43% for SB, and 51% for f-smash, with SB doing the higher damage.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, bleh, either SB did more damage in brawl or it was always fsmash then I got the 1% part right~

 

[Moydow]

It was always f-smash - I'm getting the same results in Brawl (except that f-smash did slightly more damage back then. Same kill% though).

 

[RosalinaSGS]

It was always f-smash - I'm getting the same results in Brawl (except that f-smash did slightly more damage back then. Same kill% though).

So it's a question of the stage? Or is it just different console, different attributes? Or is it a new patch? Is SB still more powerful on 3DS?

 

[Moydow]

On 3DS, tipper f-smash kills at 32%. Tipper SB kills at 33%. 3DS stages have larger blastzones, so it takes slightly longer for the same move to kill.
SB killing earlier seems to only apply to Lucina.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

ah, ok thanks.

@ Emblem Lord My bad

 

[Codaption]

Don't forget- there's both base and scaling knockback to take into consideration. One could have more base knockback than the other, whereas the other has higher knockback growth.

 

[cerealkiller]

Question: is it possible to punish ledgsnap vulnerability (or Snap Back how some are calling it) with F-Smash? If so, where's the best spot? I've tried this so many times and never succeeded.

---> I know that the best option is probably to drop and Nair or other approaches from below but I'm interested in finding if and how F-Smash works for this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You need the timing of a machine. You will never get that consistently. IMHO it's a waste of valuable training time. Just run off bair or Up b. With up b even if you don't hit them, you take the ledge so if they didnt buffer a get up option they get trumped and you lead into a trump trap from there.

 

[Vipermoon]

Question: is it possible to punish ledgsnap vulnerability (or Snap Back how some are calling it) with F-Smash? If so, where's the best spot? I've tried this so many times and never succeeded.

---> I know that the best option is probably to drop and Nair or other approaches from below but I'm interested in finding if and how F-Smash works for this.

Yeah Nair won't work for ledge snap stuff, very fast hitboxes that don't come out immediety. EL has the right idea.

 

[Zorai]

You need the timing of a machine. You will never get that consistently. IMHO it's a waste of valuable training time. Just run off bair or Up b. With up b even if you don't hit them, you take the ledge so if they didnt buffer a get up option they get trumped and you lead into a trump trap from there.

Probably always do up b against recoveries with no hitbox, such as Rosa's and Pit's. Idk how good up b is at hitting that 1 frame though. I haven't tried it at all.

 

[Shaya]

There was this random day where I got tipper fsmash on ledge snap vulnerability over and over again. Also I think you can actually down tilt "close" to the ledge (so it pokes offwards by a bit) to nick some people. Something to think about/work on.

Our horrendously awful down smash has the 2 frame release on it's charge, it's perhaps something that can be used.

 

[Vipermoon]

There was this random day where I got tipper fsmash on ledge snap vulnerability over and over again. Also I think you can actually down tilt "close" to the ledge (so it pokes offwards by a bit) to nick some people. Something to think about/work on.

Our horrendously awful down smash has the 2 frame release on it's charge, it's perhaps something that can be used.

One thing that pissed me off about the first hit of Dsmash is that the hitbox only lasts 2 frames instead of 3 like in Melee and Brawl. That's a big deal when it comes to ledge snap shenanigans.

 

[Foodies]

I've found that dashing assault hits the 1 frame vulnerability most consistently. However it puts you in a bad situation even if it works. Hope you stage spike your opponent and kill them otherwise you will need to double jump DS to recover (Don't think you can recover with CS at that angle). Yay for not super practical stuff. I'll be sticking to run off bairs.

 

[fox67890]

I'd actually imagine tipper fsmash *generally* doesn't work if you're going for that frame 1 vulnerability thing. During the ledge snap animation, that one frame of vulnerability occurs when the opponent's hand isn't actually on the ledge, but rather it occurs right before they actually grab it and are drifting to the ledge to snap it (if I'm not mistaken). If that's true, going for a tipper fsmash at the ledge during the one frame of vulnerability should almost never work if the opponent recovers low... I think? It might work against warp recoveries though since when they come out of a warp, the distance between the opponent and the ledge might be minimal, so you could still hit them during that first frame of ledge snap when they're drifting towards it. It may also work against people who come at the ledge horizontally (like fox, falco, Falcon's Side-B) if you space the tipper fsmash to hit offstage rather than at the ledge. Of course, tipper fsmashing the ledge should work vs people who have difficulty snapping it to begin with, but that's different. Is any of this logic accurate (in no way am I sure, I'm asking you guys)?

On Lylat, tipper fsmash might work if the stage is tilting down.

How "low" can dtilt and dsmash hit below the ledge, if it can?

 

[NegaNixx]

Hey how's everyone doing?

Maybe this is more a thing with lower and mid tier Marth mains but I rarely see them utilizing stage spikes to secure kills. With a character with few (almost none) kill set ups, the stage is probably our most reliable at getting kills. Not just stage spikes but also trumping into B-Air (which is more common) and D-Air which is harder to pull off. even just punishing low recoveries with reverse Dolphin or Crescent Slash back to the stage, to knock opponents into the stage, if anything it can condition an opponent to react to it at minimum.

Basically what I'm asking is if Mixing up Trumping and Stage Spiking our best bet at securing kills?

 

[Quickhero]

@ NegaNixx Yes it is. Marth's main advantage is his great edgeguard game, my goal with Marth is to get the opposing character off the stage and I utilize a defensive neutral in order to get whatever I can do utilize this. You have access to much more tools when you're off stage (b-air, ledge trump to d-air, ledge trumps in general, a f-air that zones much harder, and even jab to DB if the opponent will arrive just above the ledge) so be sure you utilize it!

 

[Shaya]

Considering how popular Marth supposedly is, my opponent's are never ready for getting up thrown and I always have the right percent to go for it down.
A lot of my kills are up throws because when you're playing Marth in a way that involves outplaying your opponent in a way that produces minimum risk, it's the grab that will eventually come as the guaranteed punish.

Otherwise, yeah, edge guards and are a common thing because Marth can usually go quite deep while holding his jump (so he can go as low as just about anyone can go before they're forced to use their jump + up-bs) to hit them out of their recoveries/jumps themselves.

Back air punishes are up there in terms of kill moves I regularly get too.

 

[Honor]

Bair off the ledge is one of the best ways to get a kill IMO. People know that we can stage spike them with Up-B if they come out to get as at the wrong angle so it doesn't get me that many kills. When they make the mistake I punish it with a stage spike but I wouldn't say it's common enough to be a reliable kill option.

Also, how do we feel about up air as an approach to mix things up? I haven't put a whole lot of time into it yet and am wondering if it's worth the trouble.

 

[Vipermoon]

Bair off the ledge is one of the best ways to get a kill IMO. People know that we can stage spike them with Up-B if they come out to get as at the wrong angle so it doesn't get me that many kills. When they make the mistake I punish it with a stage spike but I wouldn't say it's common enough to be a reliable kill option.

When they air dodge an off stage Fair or Bair you can get a free up B stage spike on so many characters and all you have to do is up B back to the ledge.

DS is such a hard move to stage tech

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bair off the ledge is one of the best ways to get a kill IMO. People know that we can stage spike them with Up-B if they come out to get as at the wrong angle so it doesn't get me that many kills. When they make the mistake I punish it with a stage spike but I wouldn't say it's common enough to be a reliable kill option.

Also, how do we feel about up air as an approach to mix things up? I haven't put a whole lot of time into it yet and am wondering if it's worth the trouble.

You dun goofed

 

[Shaya]

Up Air is a very good cross over approach aerial, but trying to land with it on the front is generally way too finicky to time to space/beat enemy actions. If they throw out a terrible dodge or whiff a move, that's fine, up air is actually the smartest choice while we'd usually opt for forward air.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's something in your bag of tricks. Nothing to fall back on. Gimme a well spaced SH Bair any day.

 

[Zorcey]

I have a tough time breaking out of strings resulting from grabs. Counter never seems to come out fast enough to punish most follow up attacks, and if I try a Fair, most opponents just wait it out and punish. This applies mainly to the Falcon matchup, but is still a frustrating problem with other characters. Is there anything in particular I should try to cover myself?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Have respect and DI away?

Honestly it's not your fault. It's the game. It makes you think mashing out of stuff is intelligent. Then you fight a strong opponent and get mauled and you don't know why.

Just take the combo/string like a true warrior and DI away looking to grab the ledge. Otherwise fast fall and airdodge through your opponent to attempt to land safely.

 

[cerealkiller]

@ Zorcey I too feel that at times. And Falcon is a tough one too, he can juggle you very easy. As EL said at low percents there isn't that much you can do (they are probably true combos), so try to DI. At higher percent try to get the counter out it'll eventually work and that usually scares the opponent a bit. Depending on the opponent you should also try other options, but this really requires playing the game a lot and knowing well your enemies. For example I'm pretty sure that on some jab natural combos counter won't wort but UpB always comes out, at one of the last hits, sending them flying (this is not out of grabs, you're grounded but it's just an example).

 

[RosalinaSGS]

Do charging smashes, in general, change a move's hitboxes? This is probably better in a general discussion, but when specifically referring to Marth's Side smash for example, charging it would make him lower his arm behind him slightly. This probably changes his hurtboxes, but what about hitboxes?

 

[Vipermoon]

Do charging smashes, in general, change a move's hitboxes? This is probably better in a general discussion, but when specifically referring to Marth's Side smash for example, charging it would make him lower his arm behind him slightly. This probably changes his hurtboxes, but what about hitboxes?

The move stays exactly the same. Charging a smash attack only "pauses" the character on a certain frame in the middle of the move.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

The move stays exactly the same. Charging a smash attack only "pauses" the character on a certain frame in the middle of the move.

So an uncharged smash attack would still start the attack further behind where the arm was while charging, IIRC. But the hurtboxes still change, right?

 

[Vipermoon]

So an uncharged smash attack would still start the attack further behind where the arm was while charging, IIRC. But the hurtboxes still change, right?

Wut? I don't know what any of that says or asks.

Fsmash hitbox starts on frame 10. The charge window for Fsmash is frame 3. So if you want to charge Fsmash your character performs frame 1 and 2 and pauses on 3 till you let go. After you let go Fsmash will again start to hit on frame 10, but it's 7 frames after you let go since you were already on frame 3.

I don't know why you're asking about hurtboxes. While charging, Marth is stuck in his frame 3 charging animation and those hurtboxes are going to be attached to his body in whatever position he's in. They don't change, they just move with his body.

 

[Xisin]

afaik duck hunts fsmash changes in length but none of marths do.

 

[fox67890]

Question: How are you guys getting out of multi hit attacks/strings with SDI? Is quarter circle SDI the way to go, or perhaps tapping rapidly in a direction? Or another method? I've been questioning what's the best way to SDI in this game and I still don't know.

 

[jopro]

What is the best way to start a match with Marth? Should I make them come to me or go after the aggressively?