Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[cerealkiller]

I guess it's just one of those things. I go out there and manage to win against well-played tough characters for Marth and then a favorable match-up like this and I struggle so much. I don't even get angry or anything I just laugh at it all.

I'm going to visit the Samus thread.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Is doing Dancing Blade off-stage a good edge-guarding/recovery option as on Melee?

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Is doing Dancing Blade off-stage a good edge-guarding/recovery option as on Melee?

Not really... maybe at certain percents with certain characters... but... yeah no.

 

[Vipermoon]

Is doing Dancing Blade off-stage a good edge-guarding/recovery option as on Melee?

You can tap them off stage with DB1 and maybe follow-up into something else but that doesn't seem like the best option.

And you can only use it for vertical recovery while rising in your jump (it only brings you up a few pixels higher because the move lags too much before you can up B) and it stops your momentum so you definitely don't want to throw it out for any horizontal reason.

It can be used for stalling but not much.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

You can tap them off stage with DB1 and maybe follow-up into something else but that doesn't seem like the best option.

And you can only use it for vertical recovery while rising in your jump (it only brings you up a few pixels higher because the move lags too much before you can up B) and it stops your momentum so you definitely don't want to throw it out for any horizontal reason.

It can be used for stalling but not much.

Oh yeah, single DB1 has some uses, i thought you meant doing the combo into like db2/3 since db3 can spike in melee...

DB1 has transcendental properties so its really good to just interrupt someone without risking trades if you space it right. The only example i can think of right now is vs Diddy's up b for an easy gimp, but i know there are others.

But yeah, Viper pretty much covered everything else.

 

[Sonnance]

So, I was practicing Marth today and noticed that the up variation of DB3 is different in the air. I was wondering, are it's properties different as well? And if so, are there any good uses for it? Sorry if this has been addressed already, but I couldn't find any info on it when I searched.

 

[A_Kae]

So, I was practicing Marth today and noticed that the up variation of DB3 is different in the air. I was wondering, are it's properties different as well? And if so, are there any good uses for it? Sorry if this has been addressed already, but I couldn't find any info on it when I searched.

I know that the first strike of DB in the air has less ending lag on it, about 10 frames less. I don't know if the same is true for the others.

For the other aspects, (damage, knockback, etc.) they are all the same as far as I know.

 

[Sonnance]

I know that the first strike of DB in the air has less ending lag on it, about 10 frames less. I don't know if the same is true for the others.

For the other aspects, (damage, knockback, etc.) they are all the same as far as I know.

Ok, thanks! Though I did notice something after messing around with it a little. When used in the air, up DB3 has Marth slash downwards, as opposed to the upwards slash of the grounded version. However, if you land before the animation finishes, he'll change the sword's trajectory mid-slash into a rising slash. This causes it to hit both in front of him still (I think?) and behind him in one move. It's really weak, so I don't know how useful it would be, but maybe this could work as a way to surprise your opponent? Like, if you pass overhead with DB you can cover your back with it when they try to punish your landing?

Edit: My bad, typed "down" instead of "up" DB3.

 

[Vipermoon]

Ok, thanks! Though I did notice something after messing around with it a little. When used in the air, up DB3 has Marth slash downwards, as opposed to the upwards slash of the grounded version. However, if you land before the animation finishes, he'll change the sword's trajectory mid-slash into a rising slash. This causes it to hit both in front of him still (I think?) and behind him in one move. It's really weak, so I don't know how useful it would be, but maybe this could work as a way to surprise your opponent? Like, if you pass overhead with DB you can cover your back with it when they try to punish your landing?

Edit: My bad, typed "down" instead of "up" DB3.

Whether it's in the air or not, up 3 slashes up and down 3 slashes down

 

[Sonnance]

Whether it's in the air or not, up 3 slashes up and down 3 slashes down

Really? I'll double check then to see if I messed it up.

Edit: Ok, just tested in training. And yeah, up 3 is slashing downwards in the air. And the change when landing is still working too.

 

[A_Kae]

Whether it's in the air or not, up 3 slashes up and down 3 slashes down

I just checked this, and DB3-Up definitely is a downward slash when done in the air.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

I just checked this, and DB3-Up definitely is a downward slash when done in the air.

Did anyone check to see if it spikes? lol

Seems like a cool little feature, but now i'm wondering exactly how different the aerial and grounded versions of DB are...

 

[A_Kae]

Did anyone check to see if it spikes? lol

Seems like a cool little feature, but now i'm wondering exactly how different the aerial and grounded versions of DB are...

If there are any differences, it's not going to be very important. Dancing Blade is much too laggy to use off stage, and won't combo in the air, which just defeats the whole purpose.

 

[Sonnance]

Did anyone check to see if it spikes? lol

Seems like a cool little feature, but now i'm wondering exactly how different the aerial and grounded versions of DB are...

I don't know about spiking, but just from testing it out today, it seems like it can set up for a (possibly tippered?) grounded up DB4. It doesn't hit them as far forward as forward 3, and doesn't send them down as fast as down 3.

While I was testing, I also noticed that aerial down DB3 has a slightly different animation than the grounded one as well. It kinda reminds me of Melee's down 3. But what seemed interesting about this one is that if you land with it (not sure which is more effective, during the animation or after) Marth will take a step backwards. Maybe this could be used to space, or possibly be safer on shields? I don't really know how myself, but I think it'd be interesting to see if someone's found an application for this.

 

[kj22]

I honestly don't know why I don't do it more often, I guess because the pivot game with ftilt or jumping is better reactively and dashing through people is hard.

why is it so darn hard to run through people in this game :T

I don't know about spiking, but just from testing it out today, it seems like it can set up for a (possibly tippered?) grounded up DB4. It doesn't hit them as far forward as forward 3, and doesn't send them down as fast as down 3.

While I was testing, I also noticed that aerial down DB3 has a slightly different animation than the grounded one as well. It kinda reminds me of Melee's down 3. But what seemed interesting about this one is that if you land with it (not sure which is more effective, during the animation or after) Marth will take a step backwards. Maybe this could be used to space, or possibly be safer on shields? I don't really know how myself, but I think it'd be interesting to see if someone's found an application for this.

interesting, I'll test tomorrow

 

[Honor]

I've been focusing on M for the past month and a half. Rather than hunting through all the threads for the answer I thought I'd ask here. Is Nair a reliable kill option? Does our jab come out faster? (I know it can now be coupled with Fsmash #Godisgood)
Just looking to confirm the whispers I've heard.

 

[Rashyboy05]

I've been focusing on M for the past month and a half. Rather than hunting through all the threads for the answer I thought I'd ask here. Is Nair a reliable kill option? Does our jab come out faster? (I know it can now be coupled with Fsmash #Godisgood)
Just looking to confirm the whispers I've heard.

I don't think Nair can kill at all. A reliable combo starter, sure, but as a kill move? I don't think so. According to the patch thread. The Jab's transition frame has been reduced by 4 frames but it's ending frame has been increased by 2 frames.

 

[cerealkiller]

I agree. I've killed with Nair but they were very high % and had to tipper. You're better off with Jab+FSmash or Uptilt which has been buffed.

 

[MASTER719]

Opinions of Marth's auto-cancel fair?

 

[CURRY]

I see people who I assume to be good Marth players doing just plain rising sh nair from a distance. I mean, this move misses a lot if you opponent is just plain STANDING, so what is trying to be achieved there? I feel like there's more behind the decision that I don't know.
Also, how do you use utilt? It has less horizontal range than fsmash and can't be used out of a dash like usmash.
I personally don't really use utilt because it takes quite some time for me to get from a analog tilted to the side to an up position. So yeah, it's one of Marth's fastest moves to come out, but there's a lot of frames lost from me just trying to input the thing. Should I just learn to utilt faster with the analog? I don't want to have a tilt c-stick.

 

[Shaya]

Short hop rising nair fast fall has the second hit reaching grounded characters towards the end of it's hitbox and isn't active for 6 frames before landing (so 18 frames total with it's landing lag). Easy thing to time/do, rising first hit can nick most human-sized characters. Also you can retreat the entire time with out too much stress about spacing it right. However this is bad habit forming, you shouldn't expect/want people to run into your moves.
I think it's just a bit of experimentation right now. Optimally we're looking at using it in a similar timing/height as ZSS nair. Waiting until we're towards the apex of the jump and then slow falling or fast falling the nair. If the opponent lets us get to the apex of our jump for free it's very safe.

Empty jump -> up tilt someone in the air. Use it to swing at people looking to land. Do it out of landing up air. Crouching into up tilt is an amazing microspacing usage.

Personally I have a lot of control with the analog stick with Marth, and I prefer it for ease of spacing as I can short hop with it and c-stick aerials; I can also buffer up air off the ground and whatnot. Although hard now it's an essential part of muscle memory.

 

[MASTER719]

I see people who I assume to be good Marth players doing just plain rising sh nair from a distance. I mean, this move misses a lot if you opponent is just plain STANDING, so what is trying to be achieved there? I feel like there's more behind the decision that I don't know.
Also, how do you use utilt? It has less horizontal range than fsmash and can't be used out of a dash like usmash.
I personally don't really use utilt because it takes quite some time for me to get from a analog tilted to the side to an up position. So yeah, it's one of Marth's fastest moves to come out, but there's a lot of frames lost from me just trying to input the thing. Should I just learn to utilt faster with the analog? I don't want to have a tilt c-stick.

Tap jump off. Utilt is one of his best moves.

 

[Vipermoon]

While I was testing, I also noticed that aerial down DB3 has a slightly different animation than the grounded one as well. It kinda reminds me of Melee's down 3. But what seemed interesting about this one is that if you land with it (not sure which is more effective, during the animation or after) Marth will take a step backwards. Maybe this could be used to space, or possibly be safer on shields? I don't really know how myself, but I think it'd be interesting to see if someone's found an application for this.

Down 3 always moves back. It's Marth spinning around and stepping back slowly. This all happens during the 43+ frame animation. But many people don't notice this because they cancel it with DB4 before Marth ever spins or moves back.

 

[jmanup85]

What are some tips for the Dedede match up? I'm having issues with that penguin

 

[Freelance Spy]

What are some tips for the Dedede match up? I'm having issues with that penguin

Don't throw out moves or you'll get gordo'd. DB and shield breaker are transcendent so if you try to swat a gordo back with those moves gordo will be able to still hit you.

It's a spacing battle, keep far enough away so he can't ftilt you. Far enough away to play gordo tennis is good because then D3 will want to approach you. I'd you approach ddd its bad. If he approaches you it's good because of Marth's good punish with DB, and now great anti airs.

Use counters on reaction only, ddd has a lotta startup on a lot of attacks.

Big bird isn't easy to gimp due to super armor, but if you have iai counter, he can't gimp you. NEVER go for dair.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ Sonnance

I was doing some testing and now have all the info you need. In every version of Smash 4 Marth has Melee animatins for DB3 Up and Down while in the air. I tried it on a 1.0.3 3DS.

Also found out aerial DB3 Up and Down have the same knockback values, damage, hit angles, and lag as the ground versions.

Edit: All of this applies to Lucina and Roy.

Lastly, Marth had the Melee aerial DB3 animations in Brawl too! Just tried it. Pretty cool.

 

[Sonnance]

@ Sonnance

I was doing some testing and now have all the info you need. In every version of Smash 4 Marth has Melee animatins for DB3 Up and Down while in the air. I tried it on a 1.0.3 3DS.

Also found out aerial DB3 Up and Down have the same knockback values, damage, hit angles, and lag as the ground versions.

Edit: All of this applies to Lucina and Roy.

Lastly, Marth had the Melee aerial DB3 animations in Brawl too! Just tried it. Pretty cool.

Thanks! That's really good to know. I'll have to see if I can use these more in matches now.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks! That's really good to know. I'll have to see if I can use these more in matches now.

They are literally useless except to look cool. Same KB angles so none are spikes. Missed opportunity if you asked me, they still wouldn't be that useful if they were, but they should have made them weak spikes. Woulda been awesome.

 

[Freelance Spy]

They are literally useless except to look cool. Same KB angles so none are spikes. Missed opportunity if you asked me, they still wouldn't be that useful if they were, but they should have made them weak spikes. Woulda been awesome.

Still better than dair...

 

[Vipermoon]

Still better than dair...

Lol I know you're joking. Because you have to get DB1 and 2 out first before you can even do 3. Then you have to worry about if you just killed yourself. Let's say you get the 1% chance it'll hit...they go nowhere and recovery anyway. Yay.

Speaking of Dair, it's not useless. I use it in several ways.

 

[A_Kae]

DB3 is so slow to get out that I'd be surprised if you could actually survive running off stage and trying it. If you mess up the timing and start DB4, that's you dead for sure. DB offstage, I just can't think of a reason to use it instead of fair or something.

 

[Codaption]

Speaking more from general knowledge than actual experience with Marcina, no spike is useless that comes out as fast as theirs. At the very least, you can use it near the ledge to save your stock and trade the endlag for landing lag (the lesser of two evils).

 

[Vipermoon]

Even on stage Dair is situationally useful.

 

[Honor]

I hate playing the Single player which is probably why I even have to ask this question but: What is the fastest way to unlock Crescent Slash? I've beaten classic with a bunch of characters trying to unlock customs and it doesn't seem to matter who you're playing as (maybe it does and I haven't played enough).

 

[Freelance Spy]

I hate playing the Single player which is probably why I even have to ask this question but: What is the fastest way to unlock Crescent Slash? I've beaten classic with a bunch of characters trying to unlock customs and it doesn't seem to matter who you're playing as (maybe it does and I haven't played enough).

3ds is the absolute fastest way.

However, I'll recommend trophy rush, as it seems to favor the character you are playing. Personally I suck at the angry birds thing and it only gives one at a time.

Get good at trophy and you can get 4 in 2 minutes. Statistically, classic MIGHT be better, but at least in trophy mode it feels like progress.

If you are good then you can try crazy orders. It can get you a ton but can just as easily infuriate you when you lose everything.

For better chances everywhere play classic first or even smash tour to boost your chances with that character.

 

[Vipermoon]

I found either Master Orders or Crazy Orders (forgot which) was a good way to do it.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I found either Master Orders or Crazy Orders (forgot which) was a good way to do it.

Crazy, master orders never gives customs. Although I found master orders to be good for unlocking music.

 

[Swampertrulz]

Why does Marth still speak Japanese in the North American/Europe version? It was understandable in Melee and kind of understandable in Brawl but in ssb4 really? Marth has had an English voice.

 

[Moydow]

Why does Marth still speak Japanese in the North American/Europe version? It was understandable in Melee and kind of understandable in Brawl but in ssb4 really? Marth has had an English voice.

Probably just because of tradition at this point, plus the fact that it'd cost money to hire someone to record English voice clips, when they already have Japanese clips that have done the job since Melee.
I honestly can't see Marth speaking anything other than Japanese anyway, it just wouldn't sound right to me (see: Code Name: STEAM). He's too fabulous for English anyway.

 

[A_Kae]

Why does Marth still speak Japanese in the North American/Europe version? It was understandable in Melee and kind of understandable in Brawl but in ssb4 really? Marth has had an English voice.

When did he ever have an english VA? Marth speaking Japanese is just tradition now. It'd be wierd if he didn't.