Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Vipermoon]

I've seen it before (not against Marth though). It's rare but sometimes it hits on frame 6 if the character is taller and/or has a big face hurtbox. You can sort of tell because of the extra tipper hitlag. Frame 6 can also happen if they run out of invincibility on that frame.

 

[A_Kae]

In that case, Jab 1 > F-Smash will start working at 154% in training mode. In an actual match, if jab is fresh, it will start working at 149%.

With rage (say maybe 120%) and no staling, expect Jab 1 > F-smash to start working as early as 100%. Since we don't know a rage formula, that's all I can say about that.

Also, F-tilt looks like it's hitting on frame 10, so it should start working at 138%. Lower with rage of course. 133% if jab is fresh.

Does anyone have a complete collection of 60fps gifs for Marth's moves?

 

[Shaya]

my general rule of thumb for rage is
(using 150% as the base)

150% / 100% (<*STATIC)
So 1.5 for this. 1.8 for our up throw.

Rage starts at 40% and goes to 150%, so it's a "range" of up to 110; but I just go with '100' so it's easier to remember/think on the fly.

So at 100% I have 50% rage.
50 / 1.8 = 27.7. So at 100% I'm thinking of up throw killing medium weight characters at 150%
100 / 1.8 = 55.5%, so at 150% I'm thinking of up throw killing at 130-135%.

So with jab in mind

50 / 1.5 = 33. So 120% or so for jab at 100%.
100 / 1.5 = 67, so it's feasibly 80-90% for full rage.

 

[A_Kae]

my general rule of thumb for rage is
(using 150% as the base)

150% / 100% (<*STATIC)
So 1.5 for this. 1.8 for our up throw.

Rage starts at 40% and goes to 150%, so it's a "range" of up to 110; but I just go with '100' so it's easier to remember/think on the fly.

So at 100% I have 50% rage.
50 / 1.8 = 27.7. So at 100% I'm thinking of up throw killing medium weight characters at 150%
100 / 1.8 = 55.5%, so at 150% I'm thinking of up throw killing at 130-135%.

So with jab in mind

50 / 1.5 = 33. So 120% or so for jab at 100%.
100 / 1.5 = 67, so it's feasibly 80-90% for full rage.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Why are you using a different number with u-throw? Also, do we know for sure that rage starts at 40%? I've heard such varying things about that (and rage in general) I just have no idea.

 

[Shaya]

Rage starts at 38 or 39% and ramps up to 150% total.
It's linear growth.

150% is the rounded number you gave me for when jab to fsmash combos. (150 / 100 = 1.5)
180% is the rounded number that Marth's up throw kills at. (180 / 100 = 1.8)
ALTHOUGH dividing by 110 would be a little bit more accurate (it's generally within 100 and 110, especially when you consider DI)

 

[Vipermoon]

Rage starts at 38 or 39% and ramps up to 150% total.
It's linear growth.

150% is the number you gave me for when jab to fsmash combos. 1.5
180% is the number that Marth's up throw kills at. 1.8

Idk what heavy character you're thinking of but Uthrow is killing Marth at 168 on FD.

 

[Shaya]

172% after damage I'm guessing.
179% is mid weight from Kofu's death charts.

And I have a pretty good idea about when I can kill lighter characters too.

 

[A_Kae]

An alternative that I use for judging rage is to take the attackers percent, and divide it by 1000 to get the percent increase on knockback. It's less useful for kill percents, since the precise amount of knockback needed to kill varies with knockback angle, DI, and stage position. For 361° degree stuff, about 183 kills from the center of FD btw. It's good for getting hitstun though, since you get the actual knockback value (or something close to it).

 

[Douglas-Vortex]

Greetings fellow Marths!

I come today with a bit of a problem.

First off, my Marth is not the best, because I'm not the best player.

But that's not really my issue, because i know I can improve him.

My biggest issue, is landing the Shield Breaker and snapping the shield, then have no idea how to properly give the tip.

Whenever I mess it up, I can feel the opponent laughing at me.

So, my question is, what's the easiest way to position a tipper on a stunned opponent?

 

[Tattles]

A tippered Shieldbreaker is a lot easier to space than an fsmash in those situations. Learn the fsmash spacing or just do a another Shieldbreaker.

 

[Locuan]

Moved. @ Douglas-Vortex whenever you have questions like these please utilize the Marth Question and Answer Thread.

 

[Douglas-Vortex]

Moved. @ Douglas-Vortex whenever you have questions like these please utilize the Marth Question and Answer Thread.

Ahh, my apologies, thank you.

 

[Shaya]

Controlling your character properly on wifi is like, impossible. I honestly mess up shieldbreaker tipper spacing on for glory all the time because walking the right distance just takes way too long. Jumping and eyeballing distance with jab maybe are probably alright techniques to help.

 

[Langston777]

after a shieldbreak, i short hop around a bit until i'm the right distance to tip a shieldbreaker.

tipper shieldbreaker is much easier to tip on a grounded opponent than fsmash, since characters will wobble back and forth in their stun animation. sb seems to have a larger tipper hitbox than the rest of marths moves

 

[Vipermoon]

after a shieldbreak, i short hop around a bit until i'm the right distance to tip a shieldbreaker.

tipper shieldbreaker is much easier to tip on a grounded opponent than fsmash, since characters will wobble back and forth in their stun animation. sb seems to have a larger tipper hitbox than the rest of marths moves

Short hop around? That isn't necessary. Why not just lightly walk by flicking your control stick?

If I have the stock lead and it's not a tourney I FOOTSTOOL after a shield break. Best follow-up ever.

 

[Langston777]

because short hopping is faster and more accurate for me. it doesn't turn marth around so you just have to short hop, fast fall, and you're good to go.

you've got more than enough time to reposition yourself with a few short hops anyway, it doesn't matter.

 

[Vipermoon]

If the character is a wobbled, there is a good chance your SB will miss. And you barely have time for 2 shield breakers if they are mashing out.

 

[Langston777]

what do you use on a shieldbroken opponent then?

unless the character is super short like pikachu or olimar, their mid section stays in place for the most part and they swing their upper body back and forth. that would just make it harder to tipper an fsmash since the hitbox comes from above so a tipper sb would naturally be easier. like, it's REALLY hard to miss a tipper shield breaker on a shield broken opponent once you get the spacing down.

also, a couple short hops does not take the time it takes to fully charge a shield breaker. if you accidentally flick your analog you're going to be in an even worse position. short hopping lets you micro position yourself without worrying about turning around or dashing.

i never fumble when i break a shield, if that's what you're imagining.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Quick question, can someone give me a rundown on how staling works in this game?

I know that a new stock = fresh moves, and i've noticed that if you do the same move just twice in a row, the knockback/hitstun decrease substantially. But i especially want to know how long (or how many other moves I have to do) before the move returns to its "fresh" status.

Edit: Oh wow, just found it finally. An article on stale move negation... got it.

 

[A_Kae]

Quick question, can someone give me a rundown on how staling works in this game?

I know that a new stock = fresh moves, and i've noticed that if you do the same move just twice in a row, the knockback/hitstun decrease substantially. But i especially want to know how long (or how many other moves I have to do) before the move returns to its "fresh" status.

So, on a new stock, whether it's the first of a match or after you've been KO'd, your moves are all 'fresh'. When 'fresh', the damage is multiplied by 1.05. So, 5 becomes 5.25, 18 becomes 18.9.

When you use a move, and it connects with a hurtbox, (excluding shields) it's added to a list of the most recently used moves. This list has nine spots, new moves go to the first spot, and any moves already in the list go down a place. So, if you use Jab 1, it goes in the first place in this list. If you then use D-tilt, D-tilt will be in the first spot, and Jab 1 will be moved to the second place. If a move gets moved out of the list entirely, (so it was in the ninth place, and then another move was used) it becomes 'fresh' again. A move can occupy multiple spots in this list.

What this list does is reduce the damage of the move, depending of the position. I've been told the the precise multipliers are between the values for melee and brawl, but I can't be sure. The first spot in the list is a larger reduction to the damage than the second, and the second is and larger reduction than the third, and so on.

If a move is in all positions of the stale move list, (so it's been used 9 times in a row) it's doing about half damage.

 

[MASTER719]

Pummel at high percents to freshen your kill moves.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Sweet, yeah. I just read up on it a bit, but this sums it up pretty well. The pummel thing sounds really smart too. In fact, I've seen that a few times before now that you mention it. i was watching a match and wondering what they were doing by not going for a throw, but that was probably the main reason why. #mindblown

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I swear people do not pummel nearly enough at this game. It makes no sense. You get staleness reduction on your moves and additional damage. Sometimes I go through videos and watch how many times in match a player could have pummeled. A lot of players are just giving away 20% +. In a game where progress is incremental, that is huge actually. All those times you had "almost" kills could have been easily resolved by a pummel or two because your move would have done more knockback because of more damage being tacked on as well as being more fresh.

 

[A_Kae]

Especially for Marth, pummeling is great, since his throw followups are almost non existent.

You can get huge damage from pummels and refresh your moves at the same time. Not pummeling is just crazy.

 

[Codaption]

The only reason I don't pummel sometimes is if I just forget to. As long as you don't go for one too many, the downsides are virtually nonexsistant while the benefits are moderate to game-altering.

 

[A_Kae]

How exactly do FrameSpeedMultipliers work? Dancing Blade uses these, and I've got no idea what's happening. I've found sources saying that DB1 hits on F6, and others on F7.

Spoiler: The data from mastercore

def game_22E():
FrameSpeedMultiplier_0DF(2.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=3.000000, )
unk_022(0x0, 0x3EA, 1.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000, )
unk_022(0x1, 0x3EA, 1.000000, 0.000000, 6.500000, )
unk_022(0x2, 0x16, 0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, )
unk_021(0x14, 0x-1, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=4.000000, )
Hitbox_02B(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x4E, KBG=0x4B, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x19, Size=3.500000, Z=1.000000, Y=0.000000, X=2.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 0.800000, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )
Hitbox_02B(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x5C, KBG=0x4B, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x19, Size=3.500000, Z=1.000000, Y=0.000000, X=6.500000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 0.800000, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )
Hitbox_02B(ID=0x2, GID=0x0, Bone=0x16, Damage=3.000000, Angle=0x14, KBG=0x4B, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x19, Size=3.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=1.000000, X=0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 0.800000, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )
FrameSpeedMultiplier_0DF(1.000000, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=5.000000, )
unk_170(0xE, 0x2100, )
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=7.000000, )
unk_170(0x11, 0x2100, )
RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=27.000000, )
unk_16F(0xE, 0x2100, )
End_196()

I can't think of how these are supposed to work and give a result of either 6 or 7. Or why there would be different results.

 

[Shaya]

I used to think DB came out on frame 6.5 or something like that. If it loses to all 6 frame attacks but beats all frame 7 attacks this would be the case....
But here's the way to think about it that proves accurate at least in this case (G&W's nair scares me).

The frame modifier technically comes in on frame 1, not 0.
1-4 happens then the hitbox comes out.
3 frames pass (all of 1, 2, 3) before hitbox at 2.0 speed.

So basically 3 frames at 2.0 modifier (6), plus one because we're counting from frame 1, not 0.
Thus 'seven' for when hitbox comes out, 6 frames start up technically if that's where you're getting confused.

 

[A_Kae]

I used to think DB came out on frame 6.5 or something like that. If it loses to all 6 frame attacks but beats all frame 7 attacks this would be the case....
But here's the way to think about it that proves accurate at least in this case (G&W's nair scares me).

The frame modifier technically comes in on frame 1, not 0.
1-4 happens then the hitbox comes out.
3 frames pass (all of 1, 2, 3) before hitbox at 2.0 speed.

So basically 3 frames at 2.0 modifier (6), plus one because we're counting from frame 1, not 0.
Thus 'seven' for when hitbox comes out, 6 frames start up technically if that's where you're getting confused.

I think I see now. Just to clarify to make absolutely sure I understand:

Frame 1 happens at normal speed, then the next 3 frames happen at double speed, so actually 6 frames. So F7 when the hitbox comes out.

That's just restating what you said, if I'm understanding this.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

The top one says active 6-8, bottom says active 7-9. I guess the top one is just a typo, then? I was confused because I had two sources giving different active frames.

Edit: Wait, mastercore says 4 frames after frame 1 at double speed. So that would be actually frame 9, right? But that's definitely not the case, since DB is out speeding F8 stuff.

 

[Shaya]

Him noting it both as hitting frame 6 and the ending being different was what sparked me realising Marth had frame data buffs.
But when someone did proper confirmation they didn't say the start up was decreased. I thought they had gone and decreased the modifier to like 1.5 or 1.66 or something prior to that point.

 

[A_Kae]

Him noting it both as hitting frame 6 and the ending being different was what sparked me realising Marth had frame data buffs.
But when someone did proper confirmation they didn't say the start up was decreased. I thought they had gone and decreased the modifier to like 1.5 or 1.66 or something prior to that point.

I remember seeing that when 1.0.6 came out. I guess it didn't amount to anything, then. DB hitting on F6 would be great.

But I'm wondering what you mean by frame 6.5. I didn't think that half frames, or any fraction of a frame was possible.

And what about mastercore having DB hitting on F4? With the multiplier, that should mean it's actually hitting on F9, right? But it's outspeeding F8 stuff, so that can't be true.

 

[Shaya]

Frame 4 of the 'animation' no matter how/when it happens.
It's a ripped animation from Brawl, they just added the frame modifier to it to slow it down.

And I thought 7.5* because "4 frames at 2.0 but the first frame running differently so half off", but then I realised the truth.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Am I needed here?

 

[A_Kae]

Am I needed here?

No, I think it's good. I just was super confused as to what frame multipliers mean. I've got it now.

Unless there's something that was said here that's wrong?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nope. Not that I can see other than that half frames are rounded up or down in 60fps.

I will update Marth/Fsmash/Zelda and Charizard pages tonight to 1.0.8. They've been in disrepair for far too long.

 

[cerealkiller]

What is your strategy when you start DB but the opponent shileds it? Go all the way hoping he drops it? Stop as soon and roll? Attempt SB?

 

[A_Kae]

What is your strategy when you start DB but the opponent shileds it? Go all the way hoping he drops it? Stop as soon and roll? Attempt SB?

DB2 is the safest DB on shield, so if you're going to drop it, do with DB2. Either variation, they're both 38 frames total. Rolling is dependent on the precise situation, sometimes you should, sometimes not. Most opponents will hit you before you can do anything, so the point is moot.

You can slow down your strikes and use the down variation and hope for a shield poke, but that's not very likely. (who else wants db3-d to more shield damage?)

SB won't work here against someone who's actually breathing.

Generally, I just drop on DB2 and hope they don't follow with something. Sometimes I'll try for a shield poke.

 

[Shaya]

Db1 on shield
anticipate a forward roll (or shield drop attack or something) > DB2 before it can come out/they go invincible.
They hold shield after your db2 in anticipation of a forward roll > Either go for db3 down, or try to gtfo.

 

[A_Kae]

Db1 on shield
anticipate a forward roll > DB2 before it can come out/they go invincible.
They hold shield after your db2 in anticipation of a forward roll (or shield drop attack or something) > Either go for db3 down, or try to gtfo.

Who's going to be rolling on dancing blade?

That's just a terrible idea.

If they do roll, sure, you can get that, but when is it ever going to happen?

Edit: Disregard this, I see why this can be useful. I didn't think it through, sorry.

 

[Shaya]

Forward roll is the best option against Dancing Blade.
You get that it's a good option at least in hindsight, but yeah, forward roll is the strongest choice.

 

[A_Kae]

Forward roll is the best option against Dancing Blade.

Yeah, after thinking about it more, I realize that you're absolutely right here.

That was just a knee-jerk reaction to continuing a laggy move on shield.

The worst part is that I actually do that a lot. So I really didn't think about what I was saying there.

Edit: In my defense in all of this, I should have been asleep 10+ hours ago, so I'm not thinking as clearly about what I'm saying as much as I should be. Sleeping now, hopefully I won't embarrass myself like this again tomorrow.