Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Admiral_Dante]

I see.

Do you think his Jab would be a good option after its buff?

Is that even a question? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Jab would be exceptionally good if I could consistently do a perfect pivot and keep facing forward. I seem to mainly get it when going to the left. I think I'm getting it down though.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Is that even a question? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Jab would be exceptionally good if I could master pp'ing forward and facing forward again.

Good to know. (ʖ ͜° ͜ʖ)

 

[ReRaze]

What's the 5 frame difference on dancing blade that the patch apparently changed with marth? Like, attacks last 5 frame longer? or 5 frames less endlag? or what exactly?

 

[Zio~]

What's the 5 frame difference on dancing blade that the patch apparently changed with marth? Like, attacks last 5 frame longer? or 5 frames less endlag? or what exactly?

" Dancing Blade input window length increased by 5 frames on all DB1-3 strikes"

I'm not sure if a buff or not, I think I can't get the DB to shield breaker anymore.

 

[ReRaze]

" Dancing Blade input window length increased by 5 frames on all DB1-3 strikes"

I'm not sure if a buff or not, I think I can't get the DB to shield breaker anymore.

oh so basically its easier to get the full string? but...it doesnt transition into other moves e.g tilts as fast?

 

[Shaya]

It's by all accounts a buff.

Their windows for the next strike increased by 5 frames. Now you have a move which is much closer to being able to throw out a hit and being able to pressure the opponent into worrying about whether you're going to strike again or stop.

Dancing Blade 1's window was 27 frames, now it's 32. It's cooldown was 42, now it's 40.

So in other words this move has gone from 15 frames of no input cooldown, to EIGHT.
It's significant QoL buff.

The "down side" is that with a buffer window of 10 frames and the input window before cooldown being less than that, your timing for inputting a special has to change.

 

[Zio~]

It's by all accounts a buff.

Their windows for the next strike increased by 5 frames. Now you have a move which is much closer to being able to throw out a hit and being able to pressure the opponent into worrying about whether you're going to strike again or stop.

Dancing Blade 1's window was 27 frames, now it's 32. It's cooldown was 42, now it's 40.

So in other words this move has gone from 15 frames of no input cooldown, to EIGHT.
It's significant QoL buff.

The "down side" is that with a buffer window of 10 frames and the input window before cooldown being less than that, your timing for inputting a special has to change.

wow thanks for the data, I always do a shield breaker after the third hit of DB, and it's usually the down one since most of the people want to hold his shield for the final hits of the down side

 

[ReRaze]

It's by all accounts a buff.

Their windows for the next strike increased by 5 frames. Now you have a move which is much closer to being able to throw out a hit and being able to pressure the opponent into worrying about whether you're going to strike again or stop.

Dancing Blade 1's window was 27 frames, now it's 32. It's cooldown was 42, now it's 40.

So in other words this move has gone from 15 frames of no input cooldown, to EIGHT.
It's significant QoL buff.

The "down side" is that with a buffer window of 10 frames and the input window before cooldown being less than that, your timing for inputting a special has to change.

Ty for a really nice explanation, this is probably my favourite buff marth got this patch

edit: (dont want to double post)
@ Shaya

so just getting this straight.....

There is a longer window to input the next dancing blade sequence so it should be easier.

There is a shorter cooldown after dancing blade so you can use a tilt or something after DB 1 earlier thsn in previous patches. This should apply to the aerial version as well? e.g you can do SH DB into Nair there would be less frames before Nair came out?

 

[Shaya]

Aerial DB1 end lag has not been touched ever.
It ends frame 33.

I mean, it should be easy enough. The input windows were like 20 frames wide as it is.
But now it's even EASIER, it's more so the "will i continue swinging or end it" 50/50 that's been created that's 'better'.

 

[havac]

This is the first time I have seen this. (After patch 1.1.0) But apparently Marth has a hit box that knocks players behind him when using his standard attack from the ledge. If they grab the ledge when you get up.
http://youtu.be/dgSIIWQ22_Q

Has anyone tried this and been successful? Not sure how hard it would be to use.

 

[A_Kae]

This is true first time I have seen this. (After patch 1.1.0) But apparently Marth has a hit box that knocks players behind him when using his standard attack from the ledge.
http://youtu.be/dgSIIWQ22_Q

The video is private.

 

[havac]

The video is private.

Lol ok fixed

 

[A_Kae]

The hitbox for the ledge attack is a 45° angle, it's just hitting the opponent into the stage for a stage spike.

 

[ReRaze]

Does Marth's Dolphin Slash have a tipper? I can never seem to land it..

 

[A_Kae]

Does Marth's Dolphin Slash have a tipper? I can never seem to land it..

DS doesn't even have a hitbox at the tip.

And even in past games, where it did have a hitbox there, it wasn't stronger than the rest of the blade.

 

[Flamecircle]

Someone help me out with this Jab, I'm having a hard time stringing it into ftilt and utilt like I've heard was doable. Is the range roughly above 50% or so? And you need to read the DI to hit with either? Is there a more consistent option than the two at other percents? Is an F-smash ever guaranteed?

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Someone help me out with this Jab, I'm having a hard time stringing it into ftilt and utilt like I've heard was doable. Is the range roughly above 50% or so? And you need to read the DI to hit with either? Is there a more consistent option than the two at other percents? Is an F-smash ever guaranteed?

Yeah, it's a lot easier to do when you connect the jab vs airborne opponents. But even on the ground you should be able to link jab into ftilt around 80% and into fsmash around 130%. You have to factor in rage, character weights and DI and whether or not you got a tipper. Tippers give you more advantage, but they'll be further away so you may have to adjust your follow up option.

The timing for these are all frame tight btw, you need to make sure you're doing the follow up as soon as you can without getting jab 2 on accident. It's all practice...

 

[Vipermoon]

At really high percents, you honestly should just go for Ftilt after tipper jab if Ftilt will kill because it's harder to get out of this than Fsmash. Utilt isn't reliable at tipper jab range so only use Utilt off of sour jab. Fsmash is good for those early kills when they DI sour jab backwards at low percents or off of tipper jab at mid percents.

 

[CURRY]

Do we have an up-to-date (easily readable) frame data compilation for Marth's attacks?
Also, what's faster: frame perfect usmash OoS (impossible >.>) or shield drop -> utilt?

You can buffer out of shield drop, right?
Also, shield drop is.... 8 frames...? 7 frames in Brawl? 6???

 

[Vipermoon]

Do we have an up-to-date (easily readable) frame data compilation for Marth's attacks?
Also, what's faster: frame perfect usmash OoS (impossible >.>) or shield drop -> utilt?

You can buffer out of shield drop, right?
Also, shield drop is.... 8 frames...? 7 frames in Brawl? 6???

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-frame-and-hitbox-data-1-0-8.409036/

I guess somehow you missed this glorious thread.

 

[CURRY]

Ahh, thanks.
So http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-smash-4.381183/ (I love you Shaya)
A shield "click" is 18 frames total??
But I usually hold my shield longer than just a "click" if my opponent comes in from above. So that means I spend the "beginning lag" frames way earlier.
So all that matters is shield drop + utilt lag, which is 7 frame drop + 6 frame startup = 13 frames total before the hitbox comes out.... which is exactly the first frame when OoS usmash hits as well.
UTilt hits at the back at frame 9, which means that usmash is probably the better option. Also, the utilt hitbox size behind Marth is tiny. So usmash is the better choice.

Soo I guess all that matters for choosing shield drop -> utilt or usmash OoS is what hitbox you want and whether you want a meatier attack or not?

Did I understand the shield thing right?
Also, this is making me really confused about shieldstun. Is this post not right? It says that shield stun cancels out shield drop lag. >.>
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2oaq9x/how_shields_have_been_changed_in_smash_4/
Reddit :T

 

[HFlash]

So, since the new patch, I have been picking up Marth, my old main from brawl. Looking to possibly screwing everything else and just straight up maining him, especially since he isn't super popular compared to his old iterations. Something that I just am not sure about, when should I use DB? I used to use it as my main OOS punish option, out of dash option, and general poke tool in the neutral. In this iteration, (maybe I am just not used to the timing anymore) but it feels alot less safe on shield, and much slower. Is it still safe to use in the neutral? Or should I just stick to spaced fairs, jabs, and ftilts for the smash 4 neutral? Also, what is the best out of dash option for marth, again, there was never a reason to use dash attack with marth in brawl because, well, DB was just safer and quicker?

 

[Zorcey]

So, since the new patch, I have been picking up Marth, my old main from brawl. Looking to possibly screwing everything else and just straight up maining him, especially since he isn't super popular compared to his old iterations. Something that I just am not sure about, when should I use DB? I used to use it as my main OOS punish option, out of dash option, and general poke tool in the neutral. In this iteration, (maybe I am just not used to the timing anymore) but it feels alot less safe on shield, and much slower. Is it still safe to use in the neutral? Or should I just stick to spaced fairs, jabs, and ftilts for the smash 4 neutral? Also, what is the best out of dash option for marth, again, there was never a reason to use dash attack with marth in brawl because, well, DB was just safer and quicker?

Dtilt usually makes a better poke tool than DB, and DS is generally better OOS. I primarily use DB as a mix-up, since I feel that to be its best purpose. Tricking opponents into dropping their shield mid-combo is incredible fun. Also, you shouldn't really be dashing very much as Marth except for gap closing. He has the fastest walk speed in the game - utilize it. It gives you way more options.

 

[Vipermoon]

You should be spamming dancing blade. It's probably his best move.

 

[HFlash]

Dtilt usually makes a better poke tool than DB, and DS is generally better OOS. I primarily use DB as a mix-up, since I feel that to be its best purpose. Tricking opponents into dropping their shield mid-combo is incredible fun. Also, you shouldn't really be dashing very much as Marth except for gap closing. He has the fastest walk speed in the game - utilize it. It gives you way more options.

Ok, I should have specified, what is his best punish move OOS? (Like if they hit your shield, but aren't quite close enough to DS OOS to hit) And also, I thought Marth had one of the best Fox Trot in the game hence, why I dash most often. Is walking really that much better?

@ Vipermoon So I am guessing DB is pretty safe in the neutral if you get the perfect timing down?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly its now safer on shield then ever. Due to specific Marth changes AND changes to the Smash 4 engine.

But its not his best poke. Not at all.

Dat Nair tho.

 

[A_Kae]

Ok, I should have specified, what is his best punish move OOS? (Like if they hit your shield, but aren't quite close enough to DS OOS to hit) And also, I thought Marth had one of the best Fox Trot in the game hence, why I dash most often. Is walking really that much better?

@ Vipermoon So I am guessing DB is pretty safe in the neutral?

I always use DB as my default punish, OoS or otherwise. I would say it's his best.

Walking keeps all of your options open. Dashing, foxtroting, or running limits you. Marth walks fast, so it's best to walk so you are free to make whatever action you want.

I wouldn't say that DB is good as poke. It's safer on shield than it was before, both in raw frames, and with the followup strikes, but you've got better pokes. Jab, nair, and dtilt are your main pokes.

Edit: Safer on shield than before as in before the patches. Not before as in brawl.

 

[HFlash]

Honestly its now safer on shield then ever. Due to specific Marth changes AND changes to the Smash 4 engine.

But its not his best poke. Not at all.

Dat Nair tho.

Nair as a good poke? Didn't really think of that, always thought fair sort of did that better. Where and when should I be using fair over nair and vice versa?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Its safer then Brawl.

Attempting to spam roll now will get you hit due to increased vulnerable frames.

Use Nair to just cover space vs a grounded opponent and if you just kinda wanna do sum stuff but ur not sure of what stuff to do but the desire for stuff is much greater then the desire to not do stuff.

Use Fair if your opponent whiffed something and you have an easy confirm to tipper f-smash.

i got nothing else. I cannot think of why you would fair over nair cept maybe if they are at an angle where fair is more likely to hit. I would say edgeguarding but Nair can kill at the tip so you prolly should master nair usage off the stage.

 

[HFlash]

Use Nair to just cover space vs a grounded opponent and if you just kinda wanna do sum stuff but ur not sure of what stuff to do but the desire for stuff is much greater then the desire to not do stuff.

Best explanation ever xD. Skip the jargon and straight to the point, love it. Also, I couldn't find a resource for when fair confirms to fsmash. (Only for uair to fsmash). Around when does it do so for most characters in this game? (Haven't really been able to pull it off consistently yet).

 

[Emblem Lord]

It really varies per character, but remember to stutter step or perfect pivot to give that added range boost if needed.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fair has many uses over Nair. Off-stage Fair is a gimp machine. Both on and off-stage you're not going to find your opponent directly in front of you. Not only that, you may not connect the second hit of Nair. And remember one Fair leads into another. It may not usually true combo but Fair strings are still major pressure tools both aerial and with landing.

Fair vs Nair really depends. You have to practice and it will come to you. You'll optimize your game overtime and find yourself choosing what's best for the situation more often. Don't treat it like a competition and think too hard. You'll know what button to press in a specific moment.

 

[fox67890]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's always been a dilemma among Marth mains whether to use fair or nair in almost every smash game Marth has been in at one point in all the metagames. That's kinda interesting.

 

[HFlash]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like there's always been a dilemma among Marth mains whether to use fair or nair in almost every smash game Marth has been in at one point in all the metagames. That's kinda interesting.

Yea seriously, I got 2 pretty different answers to my question, but I guess it's best to use either or depending on the situation, MU, playstyle etc. However as far as I know, fair use undoubtedly used more in the past Marth iterations but I may be wrong.

 

[Project_B]

Yea seriously, I got 2 pretty different answers to my question, but I guess it's best to use either or depending on the situation, MU, playstyle etc. However as far as I know, fair use undoubtedly used more in the past Marth iterations but I may be wrong.

Let me give you a third answer:
fAir in Smash 4 is not nearly as good as in Brawl because Marth can no longer use it twice out of a short hop. In Brawl, Marth could keep throwing out fAir because it would create a wall of hitboxes and comboed into itself, allowing Brawl Marths to "sweep the floor," and this was helped by it having very little landing lag. Now, however, it is laggier, does not combo into itself very well, and it has a lot of landing lag, making nAir a safer option. You need to nAir at a specific point in a short hop to connect both hits, so it may take more practice than just short hop fAiring. If you believe that you an hit a grounded opponent however, opt for an up air while falling into the ground; it has less lag than fAir and MUCH better follow ups from my experience.

Extra note: if you keep getting punished after fAir or nAir on shield, you can either throw in a shield breaker, or you can get an almost guaranteed empty hop grab mixup.

Hope you can put any of that to work!

 

[Zio~]

Can the first hit of the nair to a jab 1, connect to a tipper fSmash if spaced properly?

 

[Project_B]

Well, I haven't done quite enough research after the patch to say, but Marth is still similar enough that it should work. However, keep in mind that even with proper spacing, nAir combos into jab 1, BUT jab 1 allows for the fSmash follow up. Jab 1 to a tipper fSmash is not true, as your opponent can get out of it, and I believe it is escape able at all percents, though that needs confirmation. In any case, if your opponent waits or air dodges into the ground, the fSmash should connect, and if you spaced perfectly, it should tip.

Maybe someone else can give a more definite answer though, or someone can take it to the lab soon - I don't currently have access to my Wii U.

 

[Halfminded]

What about substituting the fSmash follow up for DB instead? Granted, it won't net you as much as fSmash does, but would this variation still remain non-comboable? I also get the feeling you might end up too close to complete the DB sometimes.

 

[Vipermoon]

Fsmash, Ftilt, Utilt, Jab2, and DB all combo at some point

 

[Project_B]

Fsmash, Ftilt, Utilt, Jab2, and DB all combo at some point

Then these would be true combos? If you know the data then you should post a link of that, it would be very helpful for us. Thanks!

Also, as a mixup against fast-fallers who might try to land and shield, or against anybody who tries to air dodge out of combos, try jab 1 to charge shield breaker, it has worked very well for me. If your opponent is smart enough to jump right after jab, you will have a tougher time getting a follow up, and so you will have to read that. If there are true combos off of jab, however, stick to those for the guaranteed confirms.