Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Bowserboy3]

Edit: Looking at the wiki excerpt again, that use of reach is incorrect I think? Should be replaced with "range".

I remember one of Shaya's posts earlier here




Basically you can think of it like the sword itself is longer than before, but at the same time Marth does not extend his arm/body as much as before, resulting in a move with less range than past iterations.

Right, I get it now. But what does "smaller units of distance" mean?

 

[Halfminded]

Right, I get it now. But what does "smaller units of distance" mean?

Without any background knowledge at my disposal, I have neither an accurate nor reliable interpretation of how the wiki is using that phrase. Reading the source section does not help me any further.

Though understanding the meaning of that phrase is fairly irrelevant to the topic of ranges and disjoints that it was pointing to. Best not to dwell on it.

 

[HFlash]

So I have been looking into using AT's to add more options in my neutral. I have been thinking about PP and it's lack of application. I looked up Izaw's video on it and apparently none of Marth's moves slide with a PP except from SB. Are there any other realistic applications you can do with it? (I thought of PP into Fsmash, but Stutter stepping or dash canceling seems to do the exact thing with much less effort imo).

 

[Emblem Lord]

PP goes further in terms of spacing for f-smash

 

[Vipermoon]

Edit: Looking at the wiki excerpt again, that use of reach is incorrect I think? Should be replaced with "range".

I remember one of Shaya's posts earlier here




Basically you can think of it like the sword itself is longer than before, but at the same time Marth does not extend his arm/body as much as before, resulting in a move with less range than past iterations.

Shaya said "for all we know." Then you go and say "but at the same time Marth does not extend his arm/body as much as before." For all we know is a hypothetical phrase.

Shaya made this a while ago http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624 as far as disjoint goes and I did testing on actual range using the Smashville white dots that are identical in Brawl and Smash 4.

My findings:

Smash 4 Marth has more horizontal range on Usmash, Dsmash, Nair, Bair, and DB1. Everything else is the same except for Fsmash, Standing Grab (universal nerf), and grounded SB (ONLY because he doesn't take a step forward anymore) which are less than Brawl. I didn't test Dash Attack, Dash/Pivot Grab, and the other hits of DB.

 

[Halfminded]

Shaya said "for all we know." Then you go and say "but at the same time Marth does not extend his arm/body as much as before." For all we know is a hypothetical phrase.

Ah! I blundered in my writing again!

Deepest apologies. I was most likely still referencing the wiki excerpt when I worded that portion.

At this point I should make my "little knowledge" disclaimer a copypasta for all my long posts

 

[Vipermoon]

Ah! I blundered in my writing again!

Deepest apologies. I was most likely still referencing the wiki excerpt when I worded that portion.

At this point I should make my "little knowledge" disclaimer a copypasta for all my long posts

No worries

 

[cerealkiller]

Hey guys, haven't posted in a while. I have a question:

-Do we have a list of which characters UpTilt works when they are standing behind us? When people roll past me I like to use Utilt and yesterday it missed every time against one Mr G&W, so I'm guessing there are others.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not that I know of. But see? This is why I want Utilt to hit on frame 13! It will go lower and last longer for those roll behinds.

 

[HFlash]

Shaya said "for all we know." Then you go and say "but at the same time Marth does not extend his arm/body as much as before." For all we know is a hypothetical phrase.

Shaya made this a while ago http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624 as far as disjoint goes and I did testing on actual range using the Smashville white dots that are identical in Brawl and Smash 4.

My findings:

Smash 4 Marth has more horizontal range on Usmash, Dsmash, Nair, Bair, and DB1. Everything else is the same except for Fsmash, Standing Grab (universal nerf), and grounded SB (ONLY because he doesn't take a step forward anymore) which are less than Brawl. I didn't test Dash Attack, Dash/Pivot Grab, and the other hits of DB.

So Marth's Horizontal fsmash range got nerfed? If this is true, this would explain alot for me sigh.
Edit: I found Shaya's old post on the changes to reach/framedata and dam. The slight increase in lag and less reach make it worse to use alot of Fsmash on Marth in this game .

Hey guys, haven't posted in a while. I have a question:

-Do we have a list of which characters UpTilt works when they are standing behind us? When people roll past me I like to use Utilt and yesterday it missed every time against one Mr G&W, so I'm guessing there are others.

If you see that they are going to roll, you could always turn around and utilt.... or turn around DB.

 

[cerealkiller]

If you see that they are going to roll, you could always turn around and utilt.... or turn around DB.

I could. But the beauty is that because you keep facing backwards people feel safer and won't expect the uptilt nor expect it to hit. Also, it's not only after rolls, since you can immediately utilt after a fastfall if you land next to you opponent facing the other way you can use this. Has been very helpful lately.

 

[Shaya]

Buffering turn arounds out of actions is an essential high level skill.

 

[HFlash]

I get what you mean C cerealkiller , but what you are trying to do is cover the roll behind you option for your opponent which if your opponent has the habit of doing and their character is tall enough to be hit by the behind marth portion of the utilt, yes that is fine. However, to be frank, that shouldn't really work more than once against a good opponent. If they get hit by that move (if they tried to roll behind you), they should adapt and learn that marth's utilt covers in front of hit and behind him. Also what Shaya said it true, try doing turn around DS right after an opponent hits your shield. Harder said than done.

Edit: I like to use bair to cover my landing when my back is towards the opponent. bair has some nice push on shield, but it can be awkward to hit on a grounded opponent, particularly if they are short, you could try that out .​

 

[Honor]

Random question: Is lag better when you are playing online directly with someone on your friend list etc? My internet is very solid but I always have insane lag on "For Glory" so I've given up on it altogether and am just playing with friends and at local tournies. Just curious if the lag is less when the games doesn't hunt down and connect to other random players but connects directly.

 

[Ako.]

Random question: Is lag better when you are playing online directly with someone on your friend list etc? My internet is very solid but I always have insane lag on "For Glory" so I've given up on it altogether and am just playing with friends and at local tournies. Just curious if the lag is less when the games doesn't hunt down and connect to other random players but connects directly.

Not really, only reason it would lag less when you play with your friends online is that they live closer to you and they on a wired connection.

 

[Honor]

Not really, only reason it would lag less when you play with your friends online is that they live closer to you and they on a wired connection.

If wired proven to be faster than wireless on the Wii U?

 

[cerealkiller]

If wired proven to be faster than wireless on the Wii U?

I believe wired is proven to be faster in any situation, mainly because in wireless connections there's a high tendency to drop packets which affects (in this case) gameplay.

 

[Bowserboy3]

If wired proven to be faster than wireless on the Wii U?

I can't say it's proven faster, but I use a wired connection for my Wii U, specifically for Smash. I used to do wireless, but suffered lag, and even drop outs at quite frequent points. I know it wasn't my internet because it was fine on any other game. Now, I hardly ever have any game breaking lag, and if it is, it's clearly on the opponent's side, and I haven't ever had a drop out since.

 

[Ako.]

So I never knew and just found out that there are vulnerability frames on on ledge snaps from watching this video.

Have you guys punished ledge snaps with marth? and with what moves? What do you think are the best moves to punish ledge snaps? Is it possible to punish with a f-smash (thinking of getting early kills by punishing ledge snaps with a tipper f-smash)

So i remember asking if you can punish ledge snaps with a f-smash, and someone said u can, but only on the 2nd frame of the ledge snap.

Finally saw a vid of it happening. 1st time i've seen it with my eyes. http://gfycat.com/AssuredLastGordonsetter

 

[Vipermoon]

That one looked like the first frame. Thank you battlefield

 

[CURRY]

Pivot ftilt and retreating (rising) nair are both really great defensive tools that act and are used very similarly, but I don't really know when to decide which of the two to use in what situations.
Is any one of these choices much better to use than the other in general? And in what situations?

 

[Shaya]

Rosalina doesn't sweetspot the ledge, hitting her with moves like that is pretty reliable.

Pivot ftilt and retreating (rising) nair are both really great defensive tools that act and are used very similarly, but I don't really know when to decide which of the two to use in what situations.
Is any one of these choices much better to use than the other in general? And in what situations?

Uhhhhhh pivot ftilt is more like a punish than neutral air which can cover a large range of heights and can be a lot safer on shield (hence more 'neutral' applications).

 

[Ako.]

Any tips for the sonic matchup, somehow i cant punish him for the things he do.

 

[CURRY]

edit:
I am enlightened.
It took over an hour to understand all the terms and I am frazzled, but I feel accomplished.

 

[Powerman293]

I hardly using dancing blade when I play as Marth, any ideas/tips on usage? Also, any good ways to practice the edgelanding thing that we discovered a while back? Can't seem to perform it right.

 

[AmericanDJ]

This is a bit of an odd question, but is falling Up-air- Dancing Blade- Falling U0air- F-smash guarenteed at any percent? If not, what are all of our F-smash setups?

 

[Ako.]

This is a bit of an odd question, but is falling Up-air- Dancing Blade- Falling U0air- F-smash guarenteed at any percent? If not, what are all of our F-smash setups?

Some f-smash setups i know is nair 1 into f-smash and jab 1 into f-smash, but none of these are true combos.
Fair into fsmash works sometimes

 

[DariusM27]

Some f-smash setups i know is nair 1 into f-smash and jab 1 into f-smash, but none of these are true combos.
Fair into fsmash works sometimes

Nair1 to fsmash is basically unavoidable above 100%, and I'm pretty sure it is a true combo at that point.

Here's a video where I use nair1 to up b, or jab - fsmash.

He's a scrub, but I get nair1 combos on better players quite reliably.

Also, the most reliable way to use jump side b is to get them over 100% and then -
Jump dancing blade 1
Nair1
Usmash

That is a reliable Kill setup, again only at higher percents

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2fulPIwA_IQ

 

[Showyoucan]

I have a question on whether I should fish a tipper F-smash kill when my opponent is at higher than 55%. I notice that I gimp for kills more than getting kills from Smashes which is cool but with good recoveries, I don't think I can gimp for kills that much. I don't want to get punished from a missed F-smash but is it worth it?

 

[Locuan]

I have a question on whether I should fish a tipper F-smash kill when my opponent is at higher than 55%. I notice that I gimp for kills more than getting kills from Smashes which is cool but with good recoveries, I don't think I can gimp for kills that much. I don't want to get punished from a missed F-smash but is it worth it?

It's not that you shouldn't (in rare cases you can) but in most situations you should not. Here is F-smash's frame data:

Move | Hitbox (ID) | Active Frames | Total Frames
F-Smash | (0, 1, 2) | 10-13 (4 frames) | 51
F-Smash | Tipper (3) | 10-13 (4 frames) | 51

Quite a bit of a commitment. You want to go with safer options most of the time. The move is only active for 4 frames at the early portions of the move (10-13) but the animation for the move itself lasts a total of 51 frames. Basically, that's almost a complete second! If you miss you can easily be punished by opponents and if at high percents, KO'd as well. What you want to do, is instead of fish, force your opponents to situations where your F-smash will have a higher probability (>50ish%) of connecting rather than missing. For example, force a ledge trap where your opponent has to roll and punish them with an F-smash. Hit a F-air at around their 50-60ish percent and your opponent missed the tech on the ground? Punish with tipper F-smash.

Around 55% or low percents its better to play your neutral and rack damage up on your opponent with a combination of tilts, aerials, etc.

 

[DiscoSpider]

Is it bad fast fall short hop fair? Everytime I do it, the landing lag is a lot, but if I dont fast fall theres almost no lag but i take longer to get back to ground.

How should I time my attacks? When should I NOT fast fall to avoid landing lag? How should I optimally use Fair to keep opponents out?

 

[DariusM27]

Is it bad fast fall short hop fair? Everytime I do it, the landing lag is a lot, but if I dont fast fall theres almost no lag but i take longer to get back to ground.

How should I time my attacks? When should I NOT fast fall to avoid landing lag? How should I optimally use Fair to keep opponents out?

Different ways/situations to use sh fair...

1. Sh Fair, keep forward momentum and land behind them.
2. Sh fair without moving forward or backward, just attacking in place.
3. Sh fair moving forward and then pulling back.
4. Sh jump back, retreating fair.

The first 4 can be done with a fastfall and no endlag, but to achieve no endlag you must wait until the slash animation is almost completely finished.
Learning how long to wait before you fastfall is what separates scrub marths from good ones.

5. Short hop, hit fastfall and fair simultaneously.
6. Sh, fair, fastfall.

These are timing variations on fair. Let's say you want to do two consecutive fairs as fast as possible. You would want to do #5 followed by #1,2, or 3.
#5 is also the fastest way to do fair, dtilt - or fair, jab - or fair, anything (ect)

With #1-4, it's a good idea to be comfortable using different follow up options
(second jump,
fastfall into shield, attack, or grab,
side b or up b before landing, ect...)

You have to spend time in practice mode being creative and trying as many things you haven't tried as possible. Creativity and effective planning are key.

 

[Vipermoon]

If you don't want Fair's landing lag then forget about fast falling rising Fair. You have so little of a FF window that it's not even worth it.

Besides, landing takes 2 frames while landing in a fast fall is 4 frames (landing lag). So you already lost 2 frames if you tried FFing.

 

[DariusM27]

If you don't want Fair's landing lag then forget about fast falling rising Fair. You have so little of a FF window that it's not even worth it.

Besides, landing takes 2 frames while landing in a fast fall is 4 frames (landing lag). So you already lost 2 frames if you tried FFing.

This is not true, ff is definitely worth it. You can string fairs together, especially at higher percents, quite reliably. And you can't do it unless you FF. You'll just have to try and see. I may make a video to demonstrate though.

 

[Vipermoon]

Let's use math. Marth lands on frame 42 of his SH taking 2 frames of landing lag so he can act on frame 44.

Let's say you can perfectly land on frame 36, the earliest autocancel (AC) window for Fair. You take 4 frames of landing lag so you can act out on frame 40.

However, you can't perfectly land on frame 36 everytime and to be safe you'll land on frames 37-39. Doesn't save you that much time does it?

Besides, that's a horrible way to string Fairs. Because when you land you have the 5 frame jumpsquat to get in the air again AFTER your norma/FF landing lag. If you want to string Fairs, depending on the situation, you do SH Fair (no FF) then double jump (you can DJ since you didn't FF) Fair OR FF landing Fair quickly into a standing/dashing FH Fair (depending on percents) and you continue from there thanks to the full hop.

You should try to FF AC Bair unless you want to DJ and you should FF Nair no matter what. But Fair and Uair (especially Uair) are not worth FFing into AC. You could do SHFF Uairs and forget about AC but I like normal SH so I can drift in a direction while falling (another benefit for not FF ACing Fair).

 

[DiscoSpider]

Let's use math. Marth lands on frame 42 of his SH taking 2 frames of landing lag so he can act on frame 44.

Let's say you can perfectly land on frame 36, the earliest autocancel (AC) window for Fair. You take 4 frames of landing lag so you can act out on frame 40.

However, you can't perfectly land on frame 36 everytime and to be safe you'll land on frames 37-39. Doesn't save you that much time does it?

So then what do you recommend for me to do to keep out a rushdown character for example? SH Fair no FF? In my experience, full hopping Fairs doesnt work against them, or am I not using that properly?

 

[Vipermoon]

So then what do you recommend for me to do to keep out a rushdown character for example? SH Fair no FF? In my experience, full hopping Fairs doesnt work against them, or am I not using that properly?

SH retreating Fair (you need to use the C stick to do it perfectly retreating) or fast fall landing Fair are your safest options for that. But FF Nair is safer anyway and you can choose between Nair 1 and 2.

But, one thing I learned playing the best Smash 4 players at The Big House was that anytime Marth jumps in this game, he is asking to be rushed-down because his options just disappear. He really can't jump safely. Instead of jumping, use things like Dtilt, Jab, and Dancing Blade to keep people out. And in general watch and try to read your opponent's movement.

 

[CURRY]

So then what do you recommend for me to do to keep out a rushdown character for example? SH Fair no FF? In my experience, full hopping Fairs doesnt work against them, or am I not using that properly?

Sh rising fair -> land with Dancing Blade is great. Kind of our option for replacing sh double fair as a tool, but less safe.

 

[DariusM27]

Look, just don't use miniscule frame differences as an excuse to not learn marth's sh fair fastfall timing.
Let's say you throw out a sh fair and wiff it. The fastest way you are getting back into shield is by perfectly timing his fastfall.
So knowing his fastfall timing is an important mixup tool to have down, and it isn't difficult to learn.

Also, When I am talking about stringing fairs, let me try and explain clearly for you.

Three ways you could fair across battlefield omega...

1. Sh Fair, no ff.

2. Sh fair, ff as soon as possible. This creates greater landing lag.

3. Sh fair, ff as soon as the fair landing lag will no longer occur, after the fair animation.

All I am saying is, the fastest way to do several consecutive sh fairs from the ground is #3, clearly. So being able to do that is an important defensive and offensive skill to have.

 

[Vipermoon]

Look, just don't use miniscule frame differences as an excuse to not learn marth's sh fair fastfall timing.
Let's say you throw out a sh fair and wiff it. The fastest way you are getting back into shield is by perfectly timing his fastfall.
So knowing his fastfall timing is an important mixup tool to have down, and it isn't difficult to learn.

Also, When I am talking about stringing fairs, let me try and explain clearly for you.

Three ways you could fair across battlefield omega...

1. Sh Fair, no ff.

2. Sh fair, ff as soon as possible. This creates greater landing lag.

3. Sh fair, ff as soon as the fair landing lag will no longer occur, after the fair animation.

All I am saying is, the fastest way to do several consecutive sh fairs from the ground is #3, clearly. So being able to do that is an important defensive and offensive skill to have.

If you can land perfectly on frame perfect rising Fairs congrats and more power to you. I'm serious, good job.